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That ignores that those ramps are used by more than just people in wheelchairs. Folks with children in strollers, elderly with walkers, people with suitcases, .

That ignores that those ramps are used by more than just people in wheelchairs. Folks with children in strollers, elderly with walkers, people with suitcases, ... My wife broke her ankle this summer and we spent 2 months with her rolling around with a knee scooter, it was interesting to see the number of sidewalks without ramps is larger issue then I expected. It doesn't seem like it should be a huge expense to add one in the grand scheme of things and seems way more flexible than adapting everyone with varying needs with some sort of device. Also, given this isn't a new problem it seems like it might be possible that building wheelchairs that can go up stairs and be practical might not be as simple of a project as many here seem to believe.

jessriedel 9y ago
It doesn't ignore those things, it just recognizes that they are small secondary effects. We would never consider building ramps everywhere for strollers or suitcases because the benefits are just obviously not worth the cost. Walkers are fine to consider, but in my non-representative experience, folks who use walkers who can't handle a curb rarely use a walker outside; they use the walker indoors and a wheelchair outside. Yes the world is a disorganized, bumpy, and unwelcoming place for folks using wheelchairs (or scooters), but the question is how to ameliorate that problem economically. "Not huge in the grand scheme of things" does not help us decide which strategy is better, and is an attitude that fails to address the huge invisible drag induced by thousands of individually modest requirements. Going up multiple stairs is a completely different problem. It's naively quite plausible that it's maximally efficient to modify wheelchairs so they go over curbs while still putting ramps and elevators in public buildings wherever there are multiple stairs.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  One day you will be old and less physically capable than you are now, and maybe then you will change your tune. It's unfortunate that you can't yet put yourself in the shoes of those people. Also, I'm a physically able-bodied person who exercises most days. Even I have almost been injured from tripping and falling over uneven surfaces in sidewalks while walking or running. I don't understand why you think it's so unreasonable to demand that sidewalks be built and kept in good working condition. It costs a totally insignificant fraction of overall tax revenue, way less than we spend on roads and mass transit, for instance.
  - philh 9y ago
    > It's unfortunate that you can't yet put yourself in the shoes of those people. This is Bulverism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      You're committing the logical fallacy of referencing a logical fallacy without actually refuting the content of what's been said. I suppose that'd make it ad hominem? Non sequitur? Red herring? Etc.? Please engage with what I've actually said. Do you really not see the problem with a fully able-bodied person saying that we shouldn't bother making any concessions to less able-bodied people by asserting that "it's obviously not worth the cost", without providing any evidence of such? To me, it is obviously worth the cost to build proper sidewalks, as everyone uses and benefits from them.
      - philh 9y ago
        I wasn't taking a stance on the question of sidewalks, and I wasn't attempting to engage with most of your comment. I was pointing out that you were committing Bulverism. Bulverism is bad independent of anything else in your comment. We have a question: "is it cost-effective to build better sidewalks?" You think the answer is obviously yes. Jess does not think the answer is obviously yes. The thing to do here is to try to work out why the two of you disagree. The thing not to do is to accuse Jess of being unable to put himself in others' shoes. That's Bulverism, and it's shit. You can't just assume that anyone who disagrees with you is fundamentally deficient. Apart from being factually inaccurate, and unconvincing to anyone who isn't already convinced, it's a massive failure of empathy.
        CydeWeys 9y ago
        I'm not interested in having a meta-conversation about logical fallacies that may or may not be in use in the actual conversation at hand. It's just a big derailment.
    - 9y ago
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  No. The entire situation is whether these people should be able to participate in society or not.
- sampo 9y ago
  > Yes the world is a disorganized, bumpy, and unwelcoming place for folks using wheelchairs (or scooters) America is disorganized, bumpy, and unwelcoming. Western Europe is much better in this matter. You should visit.
  - alistairSH 9y ago
    In regards to sidewalks, is that true? Serious question. I've been to several European countries, but never gave a second though to sidewalks, which leads me to believe they weren't noticeably better or worse. With all the older city centers, I would imagine there are some pretty bumpy and uneven road and sidewalk surfaces?
    - sampo 9y ago
      We can use Google Maps and Streetview to look around in cities in Europe and America (except Germany, Germany doesn't like Google's Streetview). This is a random street in a random French town (Lille): https://goo.gl/maps/9g8xSwnobKv https://goo.gl/maps/9g8xSwnobKv This is a random street in a random American town (Pittsburgh): https://goo.gl/maps/LSNJdN3L2Cr https://goo.gl/maps/LSNJdN3L2Cr I just picked randomly from Google Maps, of course we would need a larger sample. Or a bit less random comparison of some small towns: Princeton, New Jersey: https://goo.gl/maps/mek7u1zJFmC2 https://goo.gl/maps/mek7u1zJFmC2 Lund, Sweden: https://goo.gl/maps/dKe8k9EDuUT2 https://goo.gl/maps/dKe8k9EDuUT2
      - bb611 9y ago
        I think you're glossing over a ton of complexity with your "less random" comparison, because Lund is 2x the population density of Princeton. Given that sidewalks are highly linked to population density, they're probably not a good comparison. Princeton is also a special case because it's a community that has a lot of fights about trees. Cutting down trees is heavily regulated there, you literally have to apply for a permit to cut down a tree (though I believe there are exemptions for emergencies), and the township and community are committed to the aesthetic of shaded roadways throughout. That almost universally (basically everywhere but right downtown, and even a fair amount there) means planting trees between the sidewalk and the curb, which in turn leads to increased damage to sidewalks from tree roots, so maintaining sidewalks becomes more expensive. It also means that sometimes you have to decide between having a flat sidewalk and doing enough damage that winter might kill a tree that's been growing for 30+ years. Those are things that are important to a lot of people living in town. I've lived next door to Princeton off and on for 20 of the last 30 years, hence the unnecessary knowledge of their social emphasis on trees. I think it's nice. I haven't seen any complaints about disabled access at the township level, and nothing came up in a quick google search.
IshKebab 9y ago
People with suitcases, prams and walkers can easily get up kerbs. Wheelchairs are a totally different matter, mainly because of the weight they have to carry (it would probably help the woman in this article if she lost some weight). It should definitely be possible to make a wheelchair that can go up a single step. Especially for $30k.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  > People with suitcases, prams and walkers can easily get up kerbs. This is far from true. Curbs are a huge issue for people who aren't totally able-bodied. You've really never seen a frail elderly person who is walking with the assistance of a cane or a walker struggle mightily with a curb? Not even your own grandparents or other aging relatives?
  - IshKebab 9y ago
    Can't say that I have, no.
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      Pay more attention. Or consult the ADA's research. https://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6toolkit.htm https://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6toolkit.htm The most relevant section: "It is often difficult or impossible for a person using a wheelchair, scooter, walker, or other mobility device to cross a street if the sidewalk on either side of the street ends without a curb ramp. It is also dangerous. If curb ramps are not provided, these individuals are forced to make a difficult choice. They can either stay at home and not go to their chosen destination, or they can risk their personal safety by using their wheelchairs, scooters, or walkers to travel alongside cars and other vehicles in the streets. This is a choice that people with disabilities should not be required to make."
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  Then do it. Kickstarter is right over there.
- 9y ago

jessriedel 9y ago

It doesn't ignore those things, it just recognizes that they are small secondary effects. We would never consider building ramps everywhere for strollers or suitcases because the benefits are just obviously not worth the cost. Walkers are fine to consider, but in my non-representative experience, folks who use walkers who can't handle a curb rarely use a walker outside; they use the walker indoors and a wheelchair outside. Yes the world is a disorganized, bumpy, and unwelcoming place for folks using wheelchairs (or scooters), but the question is how to ameliorate that problem economically. "Not huge in the grand scheme of things" does not help us decide which strategy is better, and is an attitude that fails to address the huge invisible drag induced by thousands of individually modest requirements. Going up multiple stairs is a completely different problem. It's naively quite plausible that it's maximally efficient to modify wheelchairs so they go over curbs while still putting ramps and elevators in public buildings wherever there are multiple stairs.

CydeWeys 9y ago
One day you will be old and less physically capable than you are now, and maybe then you will change your tune. It's unfortunate that you can't yet put yourself in the shoes of those people. Also, I'm a physically able-bodied person who exercises most days. Even I have almost been injured from tripping and falling over uneven surfaces in sidewalks while walking or running. I don't understand why you think it's so unreasonable to demand that sidewalks be built and kept in good working condition. It costs a totally insignificant fraction of overall tax revenue, way less than we spend on roads and mass transit, for instance.
- philh 9y ago
  > It's unfortunate that you can't yet put yourself in the shoes of those people. This is Bulverism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    You're committing the logical fallacy of referencing a logical fallacy without actually refuting the content of what's been said. I suppose that'd make it ad hominem? Non sequitur? Red herring? Etc.? Please engage with what I've actually said. Do you really not see the problem with a fully able-bodied person saying that we shouldn't bother making any concessions to less able-bodied people by asserting that "it's obviously not worth the cost", without providing any evidence of such? To me, it is obviously worth the cost to build proper sidewalks, as everyone uses and benefits from them.
    - philh 9y ago
      I wasn't taking a stance on the question of sidewalks, and I wasn't attempting to engage with most of your comment. I was pointing out that you were committing Bulverism. Bulverism is bad independent of anything else in your comment. We have a question: "is it cost-effective to build better sidewalks?" You think the answer is obviously yes. Jess does not think the answer is obviously yes. The thing to do here is to try to work out why the two of you disagree. The thing not to do is to accuse Jess of being unable to put himself in others' shoes. That's Bulverism, and it's shit. You can't just assume that anyone who disagrees with you is fundamentally deficient. Apart from being factually inaccurate, and unconvincing to anyone who isn't already convinced, it's a massive failure of empathy.
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        I'm not interested in having a meta-conversation about logical fallacies that may or may not be in use in the actual conversation at hand. It's just a big derailment.
  - 9y ago
s73ver_ 9y ago
No. The entire situation is whether these people should be able to participate in society or not.
sampo 9y ago
> Yes the world is a disorganized, bumpy, and unwelcoming place for folks using wheelchairs (or scooters) America is disorganized, bumpy, and unwelcoming. Western Europe is much better in this matter. You should visit.
- alistairSH 9y ago
  In regards to sidewalks, is that true? Serious question. I've been to several European countries, but never gave a second though to sidewalks, which leads me to believe they weren't noticeably better or worse. With all the older city centers, I would imagine there are some pretty bumpy and uneven road and sidewalk surfaces?
  - sampo 9y ago
    We can use Google Maps and Streetview to look around in cities in Europe and America (except Germany, Germany doesn't like Google's Streetview). This is a random street in a random French town (Lille): https://goo.gl/maps/9g8xSwnobKv https://goo.gl/maps/9g8xSwnobKv This is a random street in a random American town (Pittsburgh): https://goo.gl/maps/LSNJdN3L2Cr https://goo.gl/maps/LSNJdN3L2Cr I just picked randomly from Google Maps, of course we would need a larger sample. Or a bit less random comparison of some small towns: Princeton, New Jersey: https://goo.gl/maps/mek7u1zJFmC2 https://goo.gl/maps/mek7u1zJFmC2 Lund, Sweden: https://goo.gl/maps/dKe8k9EDuUT2 https://goo.gl/maps/dKe8k9EDuUT2
    - bb611 9y ago
      I think you're glossing over a ton of complexity with your "less random" comparison, because Lund is 2x the population density of Princeton. Given that sidewalks are highly linked to population density, they're probably not a good comparison. Princeton is also a special case because it's a community that has a lot of fights about trees. Cutting down trees is heavily regulated there, you literally have to apply for a permit to cut down a tree (though I believe there are exemptions for emergencies), and the township and community are committed to the aesthetic of shaded roadways throughout. That almost universally (basically everywhere but right downtown, and even a fair amount there) means planting trees between the sidewalk and the curb, which in turn leads to increased damage to sidewalks from tree roots, so maintaining sidewalks becomes more expensive. It also means that sometimes you have to decide between having a flat sidewalk and doing enough damage that winter might kill a tree that's been growing for 30+ years. Those are things that are important to a lot of people living in town. I've lived next door to Princeton off and on for 20 of the last 30 years, hence the unnecessary knowledge of their social emphasis on trees. I think it's nice. I haven't seen any complaints about disabled access at the township level, and nothing came up in a quick google search.

IshKebab 9y ago

People with suitcases, prams and walkers can easily get up kerbs. Wheelchairs are a totally different matter, mainly because of the weight they have to carry (it would probably help the woman in this article if she lost some weight). It should definitely be possible to make a wheelchair that can go up a single step. Especially for $30k.

CydeWeys 9y ago
> People with suitcases, prams and walkers can easily get up kerbs. This is far from true. Curbs are a huge issue for people who aren't totally able-bodied. You've really never seen a frail elderly person who is walking with the assistance of a cane or a walker struggle mightily with a curb? Not even your own grandparents or other aging relatives?
- IshKebab 9y ago
  Can't say that I have, no.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    Pay more attention. Or consult the ADA's research. https://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6toolkit.htm https://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6toolkit.htm The most relevant section: "It is often difficult or impossible for a person using a wheelchair, scooter, walker, or other mobility device to cross a street if the sidewalk on either side of the street ends without a curb ramp. It is also dangerous. If curb ramps are not provided, these individuals are forced to make a difficult choice. They can either stay at home and not go to their chosen destination, or they can risk their personal safety by using their wheelchairs, scooters, or walkers to travel alongside cars and other vehicles in the streets. This is a choice that people with disabilities should not be required to make."
s73ver_ 9y ago
Then do it. Kickstarter is right over there.
9y ago