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I've always wanted to see a comparison of the costs of improved sidewalk infrastructure versus better wheelchairs. Intuitively, the problem of building a wheel

I've always wanted to see a comparison of the costs of improved sidewalk infrastructure versus better wheelchairs. Intuitively, the problem of building a wheelchair that can smoothly traverse a curb seems tremendously cheaper then installing and maintaining sidewalk ramps everywhere.

nkassis 9y ago
That ignores that those ramps are used by more than just people in wheelchairs. Folks with children in strollers, elderly with walkers, people with suitcases, ... My wife broke her ankle this summer and we spent 2 months with her rolling around with a knee scooter, it was interesting to see the number of sidewalks without ramps is larger issue then I expected. It doesn't seem like it should be a huge expense to add one in the grand scheme of things and seems way more flexible than adapting everyone with varying needs with some sort of device. Also, given this isn't a new problem it seems like it might be possible that building wheelchairs that can go up stairs and be practical might not be as simple of a project as many here seem to believe.
- jessriedel 9y ago
  It doesn't ignore those things, it just recognizes that they are small secondary effects. We would never consider building ramps everywhere for strollers or suitcases because the benefits are just obviously not worth the cost. Walkers are fine to consider, but in my non-representative experience, folks who use walkers who can't handle a curb rarely use a walker outside; they use the walker indoors and a wheelchair outside. Yes the world is a disorganized, bumpy, and unwelcoming place for folks using wheelchairs (or scooters), but the question is how to ameliorate that problem economically. "Not huge in the grand scheme of things" does not help us decide which strategy is better, and is an attitude that fails to address the huge invisible drag induced by thousands of individually modest requirements. Going up multiple stairs is a completely different problem. It's naively quite plausible that it's maximally efficient to modify wheelchairs so they go over curbs while still putting ramps and elevators in public buildings wherever there are multiple stairs.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    One day you will be old and less physically capable than you are now, and maybe then you will change your tune. It's unfortunate that you can't yet put yourself in the shoes of those people. Also, I'm a physically able-bodied person who exercises most days. Even I have almost been injured from tripping and falling over uneven surfaces in sidewalks while walking or running. I don't understand why you think it's so unreasonable to demand that sidewalks be built and kept in good working condition. It costs a totally insignificant fraction of overall tax revenue, way less than we spend on roads and mass transit, for instance.
    - philh 9y ago
      > It's unfortunate that you can't yet put yourself in the shoes of those people. This is Bulverism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        You're committing the logical fallacy of referencing a logical fallacy without actually refuting the content of what's been said. I suppose that'd make it ad hominem? Non sequitur? Red herring? Etc.? Please engage with what I've actually said. Do you really not see the problem with a fully able-bodied person saying that we shouldn't bother making any concessions to less able-bodied people by asserting that "it's obviously not worth the cost", without providing any evidence of such? To me, it is obviously worth the cost to build proper sidewalks, as everyone uses and benefits from them.
        philh 9y ago
        I wasn't taking a stance on the question of sidewalks, and I wasn't attempting to engage with most of your comment. I was pointing out that you were committing Bulverism. Bulverism is bad independent of anything else in your comment. We have a question: "is it cost-effective to build better sidewalks?" You think the answer is obviously yes. Jess does not think the answer is obviously yes. The thing to do here is to try to work out why the two of you disagree. The thing not to do is to accuse Jess of being unable to put himself in others' shoes. That's Bulverism, and it's shit. You can't just assume that anyone who disagrees with you is fundamentally deficient. Apart from being factually inaccurate, and unconvincing to anyone who isn't already convinced, it's a massive failure of empathy.
- IshKebab 9y ago
  People with suitcases, prams and walkers can easily get up kerbs. Wheelchairs are a totally different matter, mainly because of the weight they have to carry (it would probably help the woman in this article if she lost some weight). It should definitely be possible to make a wheelchair that can go up a single step. Especially for $30k.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    > People with suitcases, prams and walkers can easily get up kerbs. This is far from true. Curbs are a huge issue for people who aren't totally able-bodied. You've really never seen a frail elderly person who is walking with the assistance of a cane or a walker struggle mightily with a curb? Not even your own grandparents or other aging relatives?
    - IshKebab 9y ago
      Can't say that I have, no.
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        Pay more attention. Or consult the ADA's research. https://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6toolkit.htm https://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6toolkit.htm The most relevant section: "It is often difficult or impossible for a person using a wheelchair, scooter, walker, or other mobility device to cross a street if the sidewalk on either side of the street ends without a curb ramp. It is also dangerous. If curb ramps are not provided, these individuals are forced to make a difficult choice. They can either stay at home and not go to their chosen destination, or they can risk their personal safety by using their wheelchairs, scooters, or walkers to travel alongside cars and other vehicles in the streets. This is a choice that people with disabilities should not be required to make."
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    Then do it. Kickstarter is right over there.
  - 9y ago
tetromino_ 9y ago
Intuitively, one might think that fixing wheelchairs is cheaper than fixing sidewalks - but if the numbers in the article are typical, that may not necessarily be the case. According to the article, "Chicago [...] spent $140 million in five years repairing sidewalks and pedestrian rights of way". The cost of the author's wheelchair is $30 thousand. If we assume this cost is typical, fixing sidewalks would have been cheaper than replacing 5000 wheelchairs with new all-terrain models - and would have benefits for residents and visitors without wheelchairs too.
- drzaiusapelord 9y ago
  Not to mention those fixes last decades. How long does a wheelchair last, especially an electric one? Better to improve infrastructure than vehicles. Imagine if we gave up on road maintenance and told everyone to just buy a jeep wrangler. That's on top of making life easier for seniors with walkers, parents with strollers, kids riding bikes on sidewalks, etc. I mean you have to build a curb eventually, might as well slope it down when it intersects with a sidewalk. Its not a radical idea and those Chicago curbs would have been replaced eventually with the new ADA standards, its just that federal money made it happen sooner.
- nkassis 9y ago
  I always wonder when the topic of accessibility comes up why many here on HN jump to it's cheaper to adapt the person than the environment (it also feels like a bandaid solution a bit). As you've just shown with your example I don't think this assumption is obvious and probably deserves more time and study to demonstrate one way or another.
- jessriedel 9y ago
  $30k wheelchairs are not remotely typical. > A standard, manual wheelchair costs an average of $500, according to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation . A chair meant for everyday use costs between $1,000 and $2,000 depending upon the features of the chair, which can include an individualized seat, various types of wheels and a lightweight frame. http://health.costhelper.com/wheelchair.html http://health.costhelper.com/wheelchair.html
Robdel12 9y ago
So you're offloading the cost onto people who already can't afford much.
- pavon 9y ago
  Not necessarily. There is no reason that the government couldn't choose to pay for advanced wheelchairs for those that need it. Just like the government could pay to fix the sidewalks instead of offloading the cost onto homeowners who already can't afford much. Certainly one needs to be done, the parent was just curious of what the comparative costs and benefits were.
  - vacri 9y ago
    > There is no reason that the government couldn't choose to pay for advanced wheelchairs for those that need it And how many electoral cycles do you think it'd take for that program to be canceled, given the 'American disease' of not wanting tax dollars spent on 'other people'?
StillBored 9y ago
While I think the management in charge of the stadium sidewalks failing to cut the curbs goes beyond negligence, My thought process for much of the article was "why didn't the husband just roll her over the curb". That is because I was envisioning a standard wheelchair with large wheels designed to be propelled by the user as well as a helper. YouTube is full of wheelchair curb hopping (and more) instructional videos. I had visions of picking my ~100LB wife up over a big stair/whatever. Anyway, I'm going to basically agree with you, and say that it appears that motorized wheelchair manufactures are partially to blame here. That wheelchair is more like a motorized bed than what I would consider a wheelchair. So whats the excuse (regulation cant be all of it)? Particularly now that battery technology has gotten to the point where the battery packs to move a person around for 10-15 minutes (see electric scooters) are just a few lbs, and materials technology allow us to build mechanically stable structures which are also super lightweight. Without going into questionable tech, i'm sure I could build a large wheel segway style device with a low center of gravity seat that could just drive over most curbs. Probably could even do it for less than $30k... We wouldn't even be talking about cracked/broken sidewalks at that point. In fact, I was having a similar conversation with a friend the other day about certain SF style devices probably being in reach for locomotion today.
- Noos 9y ago
  Yeah, the "rascal" kind of mobility scooter is designed more for suburban use; being mounted on the back of a car or van, and designed to travel in public places where they are used sparsely; supermarkets, etc. They simply aren't designed for a lot of urban travel, and it's a bit unrealistic to expect all sidewalks to be able to handle a three hundred pound bed on casters essentially.

nkassis 9y ago

That ignores that those ramps are used by more than just people in wheelchairs. Folks with children in strollers, elderly with walkers, people with suitcases, ... My wife broke her ankle this summer and we spent 2 months with her rolling around with a knee scooter, it was interesting to see the number of sidewalks without ramps is larger issue then I expected. It doesn't seem like it should be a huge expense to add one in the grand scheme of things and seems way more flexible than adapting everyone with varying needs with some sort of device. Also, given this isn't a new problem it seems like it might be possible that building wheelchairs that can go up stairs and be practical might not be as simple of a project as many here seem to believe.

jessriedel 9y ago
It doesn't ignore those things, it just recognizes that they are small secondary effects. We would never consider building ramps everywhere for strollers or suitcases because the benefits are just obviously not worth the cost. Walkers are fine to consider, but in my non-representative experience, folks who use walkers who can't handle a curb rarely use a walker outside; they use the walker indoors and a wheelchair outside. Yes the world is a disorganized, bumpy, and unwelcoming place for folks using wheelchairs (or scooters), but the question is how to ameliorate that problem economically. "Not huge in the grand scheme of things" does not help us decide which strategy is better, and is an attitude that fails to address the huge invisible drag induced by thousands of individually modest requirements. Going up multiple stairs is a completely different problem. It's naively quite plausible that it's maximally efficient to modify wheelchairs so they go over curbs while still putting ramps and elevators in public buildings wherever there are multiple stairs.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  One day you will be old and less physically capable than you are now, and maybe then you will change your tune. It's unfortunate that you can't yet put yourself in the shoes of those people. Also, I'm a physically able-bodied person who exercises most days. Even I have almost been injured from tripping and falling over uneven surfaces in sidewalks while walking or running. I don't understand why you think it's so unreasonable to demand that sidewalks be built and kept in good working condition. It costs a totally insignificant fraction of overall tax revenue, way less than we spend on roads and mass transit, for instance.
  - philh 9y ago
    > It's unfortunate that you can't yet put yourself in the shoes of those people. This is Bulverism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      You're committing the logical fallacy of referencing a logical fallacy without actually refuting the content of what's been said. I suppose that'd make it ad hominem? Non sequitur? Red herring? Etc.? Please engage with what I've actually said. Do you really not see the problem with a fully able-bodied person saying that we shouldn't bother making any concessions to less able-bodied people by asserting that "it's obviously not worth the cost", without providing any evidence of such? To me, it is obviously worth the cost to build proper sidewalks, as everyone uses and benefits from them.
      - philh 9y ago
        I wasn't taking a stance on the question of sidewalks, and I wasn't attempting to engage with most of your comment. I was pointing out that you were committing Bulverism. Bulverism is bad independent of anything else in your comment. We have a question: "is it cost-effective to build better sidewalks?" You think the answer is obviously yes. Jess does not think the answer is obviously yes. The thing to do here is to try to work out why the two of you disagree. The thing not to do is to accuse Jess of being unable to put himself in others' shoes. That's Bulverism, and it's shit. You can't just assume that anyone who disagrees with you is fundamentally deficient. Apart from being factually inaccurate, and unconvincing to anyone who isn't already convinced, it's a massive failure of empathy.
IshKebab 9y ago
People with suitcases, prams and walkers can easily get up kerbs. Wheelchairs are a totally different matter, mainly because of the weight they have to carry (it would probably help the woman in this article if she lost some weight). It should definitely be possible to make a wheelchair that can go up a single step. Especially for $30k.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  > People with suitcases, prams and walkers can easily get up kerbs. This is far from true. Curbs are a huge issue for people who aren't totally able-bodied. You've really never seen a frail elderly person who is walking with the assistance of a cane or a walker struggle mightily with a curb? Not even your own grandparents or other aging relatives?
  - IshKebab 9y ago
    Can't say that I have, no.
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      Pay more attention. Or consult the ADA's research. https://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6toolkit.htm https://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6toolkit.htm The most relevant section: "It is often difficult or impossible for a person using a wheelchair, scooter, walker, or other mobility device to cross a street if the sidewalk on either side of the street ends without a curb ramp. It is also dangerous. If curb ramps are not provided, these individuals are forced to make a difficult choice. They can either stay at home and not go to their chosen destination, or they can risk their personal safety by using their wheelchairs, scooters, or walkers to travel alongside cars and other vehicles in the streets. This is a choice that people with disabilities should not be required to make."
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  Then do it. Kickstarter is right over there.
- 9y ago

tetromino_ 9y ago

Intuitively, one might think that fixing wheelchairs is cheaper than fixing sidewalks - but if the numbers in the article are typical, that may not necessarily be the case. According to the article, "Chicago [...] spent $140 million in five years repairing sidewalks and pedestrian rights of way". The cost of the author's wheelchair is $30 thousand. If we assume this cost is typical, fixing sidewalks would have been cheaper than replacing 5000 wheelchairs with new all-terrain models - and would have benefits for residents and visitors without wheelchairs too.

drzaiusapelord 9y ago
Not to mention those fixes last decades. How long does a wheelchair last, especially an electric one? Better to improve infrastructure than vehicles. Imagine if we gave up on road maintenance and told everyone to just buy a jeep wrangler. That's on top of making life easier for seniors with walkers, parents with strollers, kids riding bikes on sidewalks, etc. I mean you have to build a curb eventually, might as well slope it down when it intersects with a sidewalk. Its not a radical idea and those Chicago curbs would have been replaced eventually with the new ADA standards, its just that federal money made it happen sooner.
nkassis 9y ago
I always wonder when the topic of accessibility comes up why many here on HN jump to it's cheaper to adapt the person than the environment (it also feels like a bandaid solution a bit). As you've just shown with your example I don't think this assumption is obvious and probably deserves more time and study to demonstrate one way or another.
jessriedel 9y ago
$30k wheelchairs are not remotely typical. > A standard, manual wheelchair costs an average of $500, according to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation . A chair meant for everyday use costs between $1,000 and $2,000 depending upon the features of the chair, which can include an individualized seat, various types of wheels and a lightweight frame. http://health.costhelper.com/wheelchair.html http://health.costhelper.com/wheelchair.html

Robdel12 9y ago

So you're offloading the cost onto people who already can't afford much.

pavon 9y ago
Not necessarily. There is no reason that the government couldn't choose to pay for advanced wheelchairs for those that need it. Just like the government could pay to fix the sidewalks instead of offloading the cost onto homeowners who already can't afford much. Certainly one needs to be done, the parent was just curious of what the comparative costs and benefits were.
- vacri 9y ago
  > There is no reason that the government couldn't choose to pay for advanced wheelchairs for those that need it And how many electoral cycles do you think it'd take for that program to be canceled, given the 'American disease' of not wanting tax dollars spent on 'other people'?

StillBored 9y ago

While I think the management in charge of the stadium sidewalks failing to cut the curbs goes beyond negligence, My thought process for much of the article was "why didn't the husband just roll her over the curb". That is because I was envisioning a standard wheelchair with large wheels designed to be propelled by the user as well as a helper. YouTube is full of wheelchair curb hopping (and more) instructional videos. I had visions of picking my ~100LB wife up over a big stair/whatever. Anyway, I'm going to basically agree with you, and say that it appears that motorized wheelchair manufactures are partially to blame here. That wheelchair is more like a motorized bed than what I would consider a wheelchair. So whats the excuse (regulation cant be all of it)? Particularly now that battery technology has gotten to the point where the battery packs to move a person around for 10-15 minutes (see electric scooters) are just a few lbs, and materials technology allow us to build mechanically stable structures which are also super lightweight. Without going into questionable tech, i'm sure I could build a large wheel segway style device with a low center of gravity seat that could just drive over most curbs. Probably could even do it for less than $30k... We wouldn't even be talking about cracked/broken sidewalks at that point. In fact, I was having a similar conversation with a friend the other day about certain SF style devices probably being in reach for locomotion today.

Noos 9y ago
Yeah, the "rascal" kind of mobility scooter is designed more for suburban use; being mounted on the back of a car or van, and designed to travel in public places where they are used sparsely; supermarkets, etc. They simply aren't designed for a lot of urban travel, and it's a bit unrealistic to expect all sidewalks to be able to handle a three hundred pound bed on casters essentially.