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U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
- Aissen 9y agoNavya uses those in their autonomous shuttles for troubleshooting by an operator to stop/steer the vehicle.
- bschwindHN 9y agoOnce they add these to jets I'll be able to use my battlefield multiplayer history as a résumé :)
- deliriousferret 9y agoWill it vibrate when they get hit?
- SophieHR 9y agoIt's kinda funny and pragmatic at the same time. Soon tanks and planes will be controlled this way too. It will be much easier to train all the gamers for war in reality.
- masklinn 9y agoOn the other hand, it further "gamifies" war instruments and removes military personnel from their actions.
- unit91 9y agoFormer PS3-controller-controlled weapon operator here. I don't think this is accurate at all, for two reasons: 1. The more technology involved, the more audio/video/telemetry is recorded and stored. If we shot somebody, there was ALWAYS a legal review afterward. Your average grunt doesn't face anywhere near that level of scrutiny (not saying they aren't scrutinized, just not to that extent). 2. Despite common preconceptions about military members, exaggerated by Hollywood and not a few knuckleheads, the majority of us are regular people. We have families and a dog, and we don't like to kill people. We do it because we believe it's our duty to keep you safe. Years later, we still cry about it. It's a heavy burden. The X-Box controller doesn't change that.
- trumpisyourdad 9y agololasymmetriccontrollers
- miketery 9y agoThat's great. Those controllers are awesome, durable, easily replaceable, cheap, portable, intuitive, and have undergone an ungodly amount of user testing. Most importantly the recruits will typically have experience having used them in the past.
- jedberg 9y ago> “I can go to any video game store and procure an Xbox controller anywhere in the world, so it makes a very easy replacement.” Or the Rec room.
- mikeash 9y agoI fear the day when a controller in the rec room breaks, and they realize that the reverse is also true.
- exikyut 9y ago$30000/$30=1000 replacement '360 controllers. Now you just need space for all of them. I guarantee that for something as fundamental as the main periscope control, _everything_ is going to have replacement parts. That's why $30k is so expensive, it's not $30k, it's $60k or $90k or $120k. Now they have the kind of problem that's fun to have: for half or quarter of the cost of replacing that proprietary controller, they can have so many '360 controllers they won't be able to store all of them on board.
- komali2 9y agoSurely there isn't that much room on a sub. I've heard horror stories of how cramped they are.
- jsight 9y agoThat is because the supply rooms are crammed full of XBox 360 controllers.
- KGIII 9y agoFood, actually. They cram food all over them. When the embark, they don't have room for all the food in the galley. So, it gets tucked into every nook and cranny. They don't just get to stop at neighborhood grocery stores, after all.
- 0xcde4c3db 9y agoWhile they're not likely to be the best control experience you can possibly get for a given application (as any serious FPS or fighting game player can tell you), the mainstream official console controllers really are engineering and design feats in their own right. This is one of those things where getting it 90% right is easy but the last 10% will make people hate using it.
- wakamoleguy 9y agoThis is one of those simple ideas that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad to hear there are teams working to reduce costs and improve UX for the military. Microsoft obviously did a lot of user testing with their controller, but they must have been optimizing for a certain consumer price point as well. It makes me wonder what sort of controller you would have if they spent all that focus on usability, but with the same $38,000 price tag the periscope control panel commands.
- nikcub 9y agoTheres an entire market for high-end gaming controllers, from both Microsoft[0] and other manufacturers[1][2]. I had a chance to try out the Elite - they feel great, very solid build. The requirements for gamers might be a bit diff to what a submariner would require - but I could imagine the Navy would prefer the sturdiness of these high end controllers and that gamers prefer wired and low-latency. [0] https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/controllers/elite-wireless-controller https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/controllers/... [1] https://scufgaming.com/s/xboxone/ https://scufgaming.com/s/xboxone/ [2] https://www2.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-controllers/razer-wildcat-xbox-one https://www2.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-controllers/razer-wi...
- gambiting 9y agoThe weak point of the elite controller(and I do have one) is the micro-usb port. I imagine it's completely unacceptable on a submarine that you suddenly lose control of the periscope because the cable is a bit dodgy and doesn't sit in the port properly. Wired X360 controllers have a major advantage here. Also if you drop the Elite controller the dpad and the analog sticks will fly in all directions because they are held by magnets.
- mxfh 9y agoWhat stops anyone from soldering (the USB) and/or hot-glueing those parts on? The tradeoff between customizability and ruggedness is quite easy to fix. In my experience the buttons most likely to break are the LB and RB shoulder ones, since if the controller falls it might take out the switch on direct impact with it's full weight.
- mkhalil 9y agoI also am one to agree that I think this is a great step forward with maybe trimming off our huge military expenditures, particularly ones that come out as "leaks" because they are so embarrassed of them. I'm sure the U.S. navy will be taking a look at the hardware and maybe even flashing their own firmware on them, lest we open ourselves up for a catastrophic backdoor.
- ams6110 9y agoIn the overall cost of the periscope, I'd be surprised if the original $30K controller was even 1% of the total. It's still $30,000 saved, but in the scheme of things this sort of economizing is not going to have any impact. What's more important is they found a more familiar, intuitive, hence better controller device. That it was also much cheaper was just a little bonus. If the savings in training hours are to be believed, that will be a much greater savings than the cost of the hardware.
- kodfodrasz 9y agoIt is not about the 30k$, I guess (around 10 subs, so circa 300k$ savings is not a bug thin for the army), but the spirit is the key, as the mindset will spread, and can potentially lead to huge savings.
- snuxoll 9y agoIt also makes maintenance cheaper over time, that $30K controller is going to cost a lot more to fix should it malfunction or get damaged than replacing a $20 game controller.
- metaphor 9y ago> I'm sure the U.S. navy will be taking a look at the hardware and maybe even flashing their own firmware on them... Doubt it. If Lockheed properly addressed IA during design review, focus will be on the host, not the controller.
- danschumann 9y agoThat's a good sign. I'm sure the alternative is getting a quote from some contracter who would want to reinvent the wheel for millions of dollars, and probably a worse result. Microsoft already did the legwork of development. More consumer products ( as long as there are sufficient fallbacks / quality control ), in military operations, is a-ok in my book.
- amigoingtodie 9y agoHere is an alternative: http://www.cw-industrialgroup.com/About/Penny-Giles.aspx http://www.cw-industrialgroup.com/About/Penny-Giles.aspx
- ams6110 9y agoTo be fair, their stuff is very good.
- jedc 9y agoFormer submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.
- kobeya 9y agoFormer defense contractor here. I trust Microsoft to have put more time and money into making that controller maximally usable and useful than whatever subcontractor would have made the thing otherwise.
- sundvor 9y ago"Subcontractor" :) Yeah they have got millions and millions of hours testing down. Great to see them not falling victim to the "not invented here" syndrome.
- user5994461 9y agoAnd it's battle tested by millions of player using it frenetically every day!
- drdeadringer 9y agoI am also a former defense contractor. I wonder how much rigor Microsoft's controllers would have to go through to become a defense industry standard. The $500 Hammer legend doesn't exit in a vacuum, and I've experienced why.
- alexasmyths 9y ago+10. This should be done in many more places. Though with 'cost plus' contracts... providers are incented to create crazy new things for every problem. If there weren't moral questions around this - it would be amazing to see a NATO forces 'hackathon' where people create top gear/tech for soldiers with off-the-shelf components and software. I have a funny feeling that 'if they put their hearts to it' - there'd be no competition in terms of what could be created. Imagine the SpaceX of 'jet fighters' - 2x the capability, 5% the cost. Anyhow, obvious moral issues there ... just a thought.
- dba7dba 9y agoSouth Korean Navy recently retrofitted their Type 209 and other submarines with digital camera based pericopes, replacing traditional periscopes. When the South Korean Navy procurement office requested proposal from traditional periscope manufacturers, the quoted price was astronomical. S Korean Navy said no thanks and had local manufacturers develop/test/manufacture a new digital camera based periscope at a FRACTION (like 10% ?) of the quoted price from traditional manufacturers.
- jonathankoren 9y agoI've noticed xbox style controllers are very common in the military now. I'm thinking it's a generational thing. It wasn't that long ago that you would have seen a big joystick covered in buttons serving this purpose.
- lygaret 9y agoimo, less generational and simply forward progress in human factors, engineering and design.
- unsigner 9y agoThe Xbox 360 wired controller is a great piece of kit, easily the best controller ever as a balance of price, reliability, and simplicity of use - the API has literally two functions, "what buttons are pressed" and "set vibration to X". The initial Xbox One controllers were a clear regression, although the recent Xbox One X are much better again. However, for use cases such as the submarine in TFA, wireless is a liability, not an improvement.
- snuxoll 9y agoThe Xbox One controllers send data over the USB cable when plugged in. You could make the argument that the USB cable could get pulled out of the controller, but the Xbox 360 wired models have the breakaway which is just as easy to pull out with a good yank anyway.
- stordoff 9y ago> but the Xbox 360 wired models have the breakaway which is just as easy to pull out with a good yank anyway If that became an issue, you could put duct tape around the breakaway to hold it in place. More difficult with a micro USB connection.
- org3432 9y agoWell I'd rather use awsd and a mouse personally.
- my_ghola 9y agoThey probably added auto-aim.
- newman8r 9y agoI have been using an xbox one controller instead of a mouse for 4 or 5 months now. I use the qjoypad package to map the thing. It's really great and I believe it's why my chronic right-side back pain has completely vanished. So as someone who uses this type of input device, I think it's a great fit for military use.
- mih 9y agoI started doing this too, but use Antimicro (https://github.com/AntiMicro/antimicro https://github.com/AntiMicro/antimicro) instead of Qjoypad, since I find it to be more configurable. I don't use it as a replacement for a mouse but a keyboard instead. I configure it for specific apps where I need repetetive keystrokes, such as : - VLC when I need an easier way to seek media by various amounts, speed-up/slow-down the video, play next in the playlist. Using the controller frees me from being hunched on the keyboard - Any document reader to navigate pages It can of course be configured as a replacement for a mouse, but the precision in my experience was way lower.
- newman8r 9y agoI'm going to take a look at that I ran into the precision issue as well, but my brain eventually figured out how to deal with it. I use the left analog pad for higher precision tasks
- tomcam 9y agoWow, can you elaborate on how you employ it and what you think it did specifically to help?
- newman8r 9y agoI just posted a slightly more detailed response in this thread related to the layout I use. In terms of how I think it helped: for ergonomics/back pain relief: I tend to sit up with a lot better posture now rather than 'reaching out to the right' where the traditional mouse used to be. Over time, I'd developed some minor right side back pain and I stretched a lot and attempted better posture. It only helped so much. After I'd switched to the xbox controller, I started to feel better after a few weeks. Months later, the pain was completely gone and it hasn't come back since. I didn't make any other significant changes and I suspect my change in user input devices could be to thank.
- Kenji 9y agoThe Xbox 360 controller is literally the best controller in existence. The Xbox One controller is a step back. Quality control is fucked up, every single one of my Xbox One controllers has a (different) problem, whereas my about 8 Xbox 360 controllers were impeccable across the board until I wore them out. And forget about the PS controllers, they are garbage.
- bitwize 9y agoWhy not? It's a good controller, cheap, and readily available. I'm reminded of the in-joke in Metal Gear Solid 4 that saw Solid Snake use a PS3 controller to joystick around the "Metal Gear Mark II" recon drone. Then, as early as later that same year, actual soldiers were operating actual drones with Xbox controllers...
- rawoke083600 9y ago$38k for the current version ! No Way !
- HugoDaniel 9y agoWhy not PS4 controllers ?
- Nuzzerino 9y agoHow do you think that would go over with the sailors? "Government awards military contract to foreign company."
- HugoDaniel 9y agoah! i was thinking it might had been related to usability... nice one thanks :D
- TD-Linux 9y agoI suspect the 360 controller being available in a wired-only version is a factor (also as to why 360 and not One)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- sytelus 9y agoXBox controllers are super inaccurate and have lot of random noise. They could have used remote controllers for drones like FrSky and plugged it in as joystick. It would cost $250 instead of $25 but, gosh, you are in $100M sub!
- gonzo41 9y agoNot for nothing this isn't uncommon, The CLU on a javelin missile uses a ps2 controller. Split to separate hands but when your training on it your like, I remember this.
- dundercoder 9y agoI love it when manufacturers choose to use common and inexpensive connectors/components, rather than choosing to make their own proprietary one. Using the iec 320 c13/14, usb micro, and other "standard" connectors is laudable.
- graphitezepp 9y agoBig fan of standardization as a principle over here. Even if the technology in question isn't the best, if its adequate I become an advocate as soon as its near being a standard. More use of common and inexpensive things and more standards just makes everything more modular and easier to fix in general.
- tantalor 9y ago> everything is controlled with a helicopter-style stick... It’s kind of clunky in your hand; it’s real heavy Have we got an image of this? Side by side with the controller?
- beastman82 9y agoThis makes an enormous amount of sense
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- drharby 9y agoDid development engineering in the air force. Worked with xbox360 drivers as a PoC for bomb defusal bots. The troops loved the ergonomics, and the product was cheap. iirc i think irobot does use these for our bomb bots
- KGIII 9y agoAnd many youth will already be trained on the controller. I've seen this subject come up before. It makes sense. I believe it was even considered for UAV controls.
- rkuykendall-com 9y ago> And many youth will already be trained on the controller. And if they're not, give the troops XBOXs and Halo, and they'll be more than happy to train THEMSELVES on it in their free time!
- GuB-42 9y agoWhat about ratings? Military hardware typically use electronics with wider margins for temperature, humidity, power surge, etc... While consumer hardware is used a lot in R&D and testing, it normally doesn't make it to the final product. Of course, I practice, I think that a peripheral designed to withstand the wrath of gamers worldwide could handle an actual war just fine. And if not, replacements don't cost much. But still, it is surprising that armed forces accept something not covered by rubber stamps and red tape.
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoI guarantee that they ran some tests and figured out that xBox controllers were either manufactured to tolerances "close enough to what we'd spec out that the difference is negligible" or that stuffing one more spare in a ziploc bag gave them less overall downtime than nicer hardware and carrying fewer spares.
- snuxoll 9y agoThis isn't the first time our armed forces have used the venerable Xbox 360 controller, they're cheap and easy to replace, ubiquitous, and basically anyone can use one comfortably. Sure, they aren't waterproof, dust proof, have overvoltage protection, etc. but whatever - you can carry a dozen spares for $240.
- zzzeek 9y agoI worked at a military contractor one summer, decades ago. Back then, nothing went out that wasn't mil-spec. My novice understanding of this was that equipment used by the military must be able to withstand a much wider variety of stress, and exhibit a much greater degree of usability under every possible scenario, than could be provided by consumer-level products. Specifically, my job at the time was sitting in a dark room helping to measure the light output of switches that were used on airplane consoles. This was understandable because this equipment is not only life-or-death but must perform in chaotic and hostile environments. TL;DR. Does the xbox 360 controller to be used on navy submarine work when say....it gets wet? (or just how does it deal with saltwater corrosion). Not to mention the security issues I see other people mentioning here.
- dboshardy 9y agoNo it probably doesn't do well when wet or corroded, but, instead of $38,000 for single point of failure, you now have watertight box of 20 (or more) $30 controllers.
- zzzeek 9y agoI get that, but the corrosion is internal. The unit could fail in the middle of a critical operation. How are they handling that?
- odammit 9y ago> The company says the photonic mast handgrip and imaging control panel that cost about $38,000 can be replaced with an Xbox controller that typically costs less than $30. I'm curious if their supplier will give them the bargain US-government-only price of $1999.95 per controller.
- greggarious 9y agoThis makes sense. Microsoft spent a lot of time researching the ergonomics of these controllers, why replicate their user research?
- liveoneggs 9y agodon't these things have microphones and components of questionable origins? I agree that it's basically a good idea but I'd be a little worried about embedded mics/etc from wherever living inside of nuclear subs.
- JBlue42 9y agoI can't believe my tax dollars would be used for such an expensive thing! At least go to the lowest bidder and get MadCatz ones!