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> What's going to happen without a standard? A bunch of proprietary plugins? What is supposed to be happen is a zero-tolerance and active fightback against any

> What's going to happen without a standard? A bunch of proprietary plugins? What is supposed to be happen is a zero-tolerance and active fightback against anything DRM-related in the web - be it in the browser or be it a plugin.

emodendroket 9y ago
You can't really expect companies like Google, Microsoft, or Apple to take up that mantle -- why would they, when it's not in their interests? If you actually want to fix the problem you probably need to hit the regulatory levers.
- jacamat 9y ago
  How is it not in their interests?
  - MBCook 9y ago
    It’s actively against their interests. Their interest is in letting people use their browsers to view content. The media companies have made it clear that’s not happening without DRM. So the browser companies support it. It’s not manditory, you can ship content without it. But if Chrome said ‘DRM free only’ all that would happen is people would abandon it to be able to watch video online. If you don’t like DRM then get legislation made. But you’ll never do that because even without the giant lobbying budgets I don’t see why lawmakers would make it illegal.
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > The media companies have made it clear that’s not happening without DRM. If people were actively boycotting anything that uses DRM and were bawling out media companies that use DRM, there would soon appear media companies that provide a "no-DRM media package". As soon as these companies were making big money with DRM-free content, I am pretty sure the large media companies would in the long run give up their stupid idea that DRM is necessary. DRM is only necessary because there exist (too many) people who don't have a zero-tolerance policy against DRM.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        Yes, if you can achieve a massive boycott you might see some success. I don't see anything like a broad-based movement to that end going on right now.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        > DRM is only necessary because there exist (too many) people who don't have a zero-tolerance policy against DRM. Really? I can see a pretty good argument for why it SHOULD be legal. If I want to post some content I make online why shouldn’t I be able to try to protect it? And let’s not go through the ‘But Sony rootkit!’ stuff. You can make safe DRM. Rooting someone’s computer is already a crime, that’s why Sony in trouble. > As soon as these companies were making big money with DRM-free content... Far too many people see nothing wrong with piracy. It works on music because it’s so cheap. I don’t think you’ll get 99c TV shows or especially movies any time soon. It probably isn’t sustainable, especially for movies. So people will pirate, out of cheapness or inability to pay or ‘righteousness’ or whatever. It’s not going to happen. > ... I am pretty sure the large media companies would in the long run give up their stupid idea that DRM is necessary. Why should they, from a business perspective, give up control they have now with basically no downside? I don’t even see a moral argument they should give it up. Now I agree we need better fair use laws, and security people should be able to poke at DRM to make sure it’s not doing evil things. But I don’t see why society, under moral or business obligations, could support outlawing DRM.
        MBCook 9y ago
        Well that comment went as well as I expected. Can someone give a good argument why someone shouldn’t be able to use DRM to protect their content?
        yarrel 9y ago
        Because it does not allow them to protect their content. Their content will still be distributed without their consent, because DRM is broken as quickly as it is implemented. And they will not be the one using DRM to control distribution of their content, the DRM vendor will be. Next: why shouldn't I use the magic beans the mafia are offering me to protect my content?
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      > If you don’t like DRM then get legislation made. But you’ll never do that because even without the giant lobbying budgets I don’t see why lawmakers would make it illegal. Well, a broad-based pressure group making them think they'd lose office if they didn't support such a thing is the only way anything like that ever gets passed. A lot of folks in Congress didn't want to see JASTA passed but felt they had no choice but to vote for it, so there's a model. But yeah, this conversation, talking about how maybe if we ask Google nicely they'll act against their financial interests, strikes me as pretty naive.
      - felipelemos 9y ago
        This the only possible way to win on the long run.
        MBCook 9y ago
        Would an anti-DRM law actually be constitutional?
        felipelemos 9y ago
        What part of the US Constitution would make it illegal? Companies should not have this kind of power. Internet is a basic need now, it's where we (as a race) create and share knowledge. If it is immoral to put restrictions on book consumptions, why should be moral to put restrictions on media consumption? And I'm not referring to access. You can buy a book on a store, and after that that book is yours you can lend to anyone else, and everyone can read the same pages on this same physical book. It the right to use the information after that you paid for it.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        Yes, why not? Believe it or not it's not an issue Madison ever weighed in on.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        Honestly I’m not sure it’s possible to make DRM illegal. On what grounds with that be constitutional? Artists have had rights to control how their work is performed in the US forever. How is this any different? Why would one form get protection and not the other? I mean legally I don’t know if this counts as a free speech argument or not I just don’t see how such a long would end up passing muster.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    They're likely to just lose users to people jumping ship to browsers that let them watch Netflix and they're all involved in distributing DRM-encumbered content themselves.
epistasis 9y ago
That's a big shift from historical standards. Where has the pushback been for plugins that permitted DRM? Or from allowing them in, say Firefox? I'm wondering why this proposal gets so much more attention than all the past DRM that's been on the web. Did people just not realize that it was there?
- wolfgke 9y ago
  > Where has the pushback been for plugins that permitted DRM? I have never installed any plugin for DRM and don't know anybody who has.* I also warned people about the dangers of DRM all the time. In this sense the pushback was always there - but since browser plugins were hated anyway this was a rather easy fight. * OK, to be 100% honest: I am aware that Flash allowed some kind of DRM - but I never seen or used any application which used it and I don't know anybody who used any application where Flash DRM was used. So the statement still holds.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    It took the iPhone to kill Flash and even then not having it was one of the biggest complaints about the phone. And they killed it for reasons having nothing to do with DRM.
  - thephyber 9y ago
    Flash and Silverlight plugins have been used by Netflix/Hulu on desktop browsers. I highly doubt nobody you know has installed them. It's much more likely they simply don't tell you they did or it never came up in conversation.
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > Flash and Silverlight plugins have been used by Netflix/Hulu on desktop browsers. > I highly doubt nobody you know has installed them Netflix (let alone Hulu) is not as popular in Germany as it is in the USA.
      - deleted 9y ago

emodendroket 9y ago

You can't really expect companies like Google, Microsoft, or Apple to take up that mantle -- why would they, when it's not in their interests? If you actually want to fix the problem you probably need to hit the regulatory levers.

jacamat 9y ago
How is it not in their interests?
- MBCook 9y ago
  It’s actively against their interests. Their interest is in letting people use their browsers to view content. The media companies have made it clear that’s not happening without DRM. So the browser companies support it. It’s not manditory, you can ship content without it. But if Chrome said ‘DRM free only’ all that would happen is people would abandon it to be able to watch video online. If you don’t like DRM then get legislation made. But you’ll never do that because even without the giant lobbying budgets I don’t see why lawmakers would make it illegal.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > The media companies have made it clear that’s not happening without DRM. If people were actively boycotting anything that uses DRM and were bawling out media companies that use DRM, there would soon appear media companies that provide a "no-DRM media package". As soon as these companies were making big money with DRM-free content, I am pretty sure the large media companies would in the long run give up their stupid idea that DRM is necessary. DRM is only necessary because there exist (too many) people who don't have a zero-tolerance policy against DRM.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Yes, if you can achieve a massive boycott you might see some success. I don't see anything like a broad-based movement to that end going on right now.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      > DRM is only necessary because there exist (too many) people who don't have a zero-tolerance policy against DRM. Really? I can see a pretty good argument for why it SHOULD be legal. If I want to post some content I make online why shouldn’t I be able to try to protect it? And let’s not go through the ‘But Sony rootkit!’ stuff. You can make safe DRM. Rooting someone’s computer is already a crime, that’s why Sony in trouble. > As soon as these companies were making big money with DRM-free content... Far too many people see nothing wrong with piracy. It works on music because it’s so cheap. I don’t think you’ll get 99c TV shows or especially movies any time soon. It probably isn’t sustainable, especially for movies. So people will pirate, out of cheapness or inability to pay or ‘righteousness’ or whatever. It’s not going to happen. > ... I am pretty sure the large media companies would in the long run give up their stupid idea that DRM is necessary. Why should they, from a business perspective, give up control they have now with basically no downside? I don’t even see a moral argument they should give it up. Now I agree we need better fair use laws, and security people should be able to poke at DRM to make sure it’s not doing evil things. But I don’t see why society, under moral or business obligations, could support outlawing DRM.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        Well that comment went as well as I expected. Can someone give a good argument why someone shouldn’t be able to use DRM to protect their content?
        yarrel 9y ago
        Because it does not allow them to protect their content. Their content will still be distributed without their consent, because DRM is broken as quickly as it is implemented. And they will not be the one using DRM to control distribution of their content, the DRM vendor will be. Next: why shouldn't I use the magic beans the mafia are offering me to protect my content?
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    > If you don’t like DRM then get legislation made. But you’ll never do that because even without the giant lobbying budgets I don’t see why lawmakers would make it illegal. Well, a broad-based pressure group making them think they'd lose office if they didn't support such a thing is the only way anything like that ever gets passed. A lot of folks in Congress didn't want to see JASTA passed but felt they had no choice but to vote for it, so there's a model. But yeah, this conversation, talking about how maybe if we ask Google nicely they'll act against their financial interests, strikes me as pretty naive.
    - felipelemos 9y ago
      This the only possible way to win on the long run.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        Would an anti-DRM law actually be constitutional?
        felipelemos 9y ago
        What part of the US Constitution would make it illegal? Companies should not have this kind of power. Internet is a basic need now, it's where we (as a race) create and share knowledge. If it is immoral to put restrictions on book consumptions, why should be moral to put restrictions on media consumption? And I'm not referring to access. You can buy a book on a store, and after that that book is yours you can lend to anyone else, and everyone can read the same pages on this same physical book. It the right to use the information after that you paid for it.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        Yes, why not? Believe it or not it's not an issue Madison ever weighed in on.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      Honestly I’m not sure it’s possible to make DRM illegal. On what grounds with that be constitutional? Artists have had rights to control how their work is performed in the US forever. How is this any different? Why would one form get protection and not the other? I mean legally I don’t know if this counts as a free speech argument or not I just don’t see how such a long would end up passing muster.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  They're likely to just lose users to people jumping ship to browsers that let them watch Netflix and they're all involved in distributing DRM-encumbered content themselves.

epistasis 9y ago

That's a big shift from historical standards. Where has the pushback been for plugins that permitted DRM? Or from allowing them in, say Firefox? I'm wondering why this proposal gets so much more attention than all the past DRM that's been on the web. Did people just not realize that it was there?

wolfgke 9y ago
> Where has the pushback been for plugins that permitted DRM? I have never installed any plugin for DRM and don't know anybody who has.* I also warned people about the dangers of DRM all the time. In this sense the pushback was always there - but since browser plugins were hated anyway this was a rather easy fight. * OK, to be 100% honest: I am aware that Flash allowed some kind of DRM - but I never seen or used any application which used it and I don't know anybody who used any application where Flash DRM was used. So the statement still holds.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  It took the iPhone to kill Flash and even then not having it was one of the biggest complaints about the phone. And they killed it for reasons having nothing to do with DRM.
- thephyber 9y ago
  Flash and Silverlight plugins have been used by Netflix/Hulu on desktop browsers. I highly doubt nobody you know has installed them. It's much more likely they simply don't tell you they did or it never came up in conversation.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > Flash and Silverlight plugins have been used by Netflix/Hulu on desktop browsers. > I highly doubt nobody you know has installed them Netflix (let alone Hulu) is not as popular in Germany as it is in the USA.
    - deleted 9y ago