4 ms·

The original job postings[1][2] were even more egregious. They originally said, "many of us routinely work 70-90 hours/week". After a lot of criticism on a Fac

by foo101 9y ago

The original job postings[1][2] were even more egregious. They originally said, "many of us routinely work 70-90 hours/week". After a lot of criticism on a Facebook post by Andrew Ng[3] (where you can still find residual evidence of the "work 70-90 hours/week" claim), they modified it to, "many of us routinely work and study 70+ hours a week". So to be precise, they were initially offering you a 43% to 56% pay cut. Getting paid for 40 hours when you have worked for 70 hours is a 100 * (1.0 - 40 / 70) ≈ 43% pay cut. Getting paid for 40 hours when you have worked for 90 hours is a 100 * (1.0 - 40 / 90) ≈ 56% pay cut. [1]: https://www.deeplearning.ai/machinelearningsoftwareengjobdescri https://www.deeplearning.ai/machinelearningsoftwareengjobdes... [2]: https://www.deeplearning.ai/fullstacksoftwareengineerjobdescrip https://www.deeplearning.ai/fullstacksoftwareengineerjobdesc... [3]: https://www.facebook.com/andrew.ng.96/posts/1472272026162033 https://www.facebook.com/andrew.ng.96/posts/1472272026162033

philipov 9y ago
Does trawling HN for Github repositories and blog posts count as study? Gotta get that market research done somehow!
chrisseaton 9y ago
> Getting paid for 40 hours Do salaried jobs always specify a number of hours in their contracts? Otherwise you aren't being paid for 40 hours - you're just being paid to get the job done aren't you?
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  They should, because if they would instead offer an amount per week or month without the hours, employees could just decide to only put in 4 hours a day. Contracts work both ways. Also the definition of "getting the job done" would also have to be defined in the contract somewhere. The job advert also states "full-time", which IIRC implies a certain hours a week.
- aetherson 9y ago
  I mean, sure. But if you have a typical programming job, it's not like there's a clean finish line. There's always more work to do, but at some point you need to pack up and go home for the night.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    then your employer needs to plan better and descope where required
    - aetherson 9y ago
      No, dude. Like, not, "There's always omigod super important crunch time work to do." There's always just ordinary "what's next on the queue" work to do. Descoping doesn't mean "We're done as software developers," it means "We aren't going to worry about getting this functionality into this release." But there's no point where you don't have a backlog. When you finish the task you're current working on, you pick up the next task. Nobody's expecting anyone to work all night on the next task, but similarly there's no place where you're like, "Okay, we're done, everyone go home for the week." So... work 40 hours-ish.
      - walshemj 9y ago
        Sounds like your employer sucks mate and probably a weak or ineffectual CTO who is not doing their job
- shados 9y ago
  Not really. Most of mines have had stuff like "the employee will work the amount of time needed to get stuff done", worded in legalese. Which is kind of the definition of being salaried, so it makes sense.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  It's a very rare "get the job done" job that ever lets you finish your work and go home before 40 hours are up.
- soneca 9y ago
  In Brazil, yes, they always include how many hours are required. Usually 40 or 44 (the maximum allowed by our laws). I think it would be very weird to not have that in a employment contract, as time for money is the essence of employment.
- doikor 9y ago
  This is weird to me. At least here in Finland when you are salaried for the standard 37.5h work week (7.5h work day with 30min lunch break) if you work more then that you log the hours as overtime and get paid for them or in some form of "flex" time that you turn into vacation days or money (there are limits to how many hours of flex you can have banked up) I know some smaller companies/start ups work around this but they can very easily get in trouble as doing that is illegal (as in if even a single employee complains to the authorities about not being paid for overtime they are fucked)
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    If it's a standard number of hours what's the point in being salaried? Why don't they just pay you hourly?
    - doikor 9y ago
      Because nobody on the better paid fields would take such a contract. You could try it but you would most likely lose in the market place of jobs by all the best employees going somewhere else. As to why having a contract that pays you for the standard work week always I think people just like the security of getting roughly the same amount of money each month (or biweekly or however often you get paid). Especially once you have some money so you have mortgages, loans and credit cards to manage on top of your monthly bills. Also the hours beyond the normal work week are overtime and come with multipliers for your effective hourly rate so companies try to do their best to arrange things so that minimal amount of overtime is actually done.
      - ikeyany 9y ago
        So the point of salaries is to not have to pay overtime? No wonder everyone is becoming a contractor.
        logfromblammo 9y ago
        The point of salaries was to pay employees by the week instead of by the hour. My first job had a weekly timecard that consisted of a checkbox: "Did you work this week?" Now, every job I have requires me to account for all my hours, so it seems like the only reason I am not a wage employee is to avoid paying me 150% base rate for hours worked beyond the first 40 in a calendar week.
- indiadev 9y ago
  In India, most employment agreements in the software industry mention an average of 40 work hours per week. They usually also have a disclaimer that mention that one may have to work more than 40 hours per week without any additional compensation. That's just a legal disclaimer. In reality though, in every software company (except Oracle) I have worked for overtime was rewarded with free pizzas for the extra hours we spent after sunset and also additional paid time off (known as "compensation time off").
  - fred_is_fred 9y ago
    I make enough money that I can buy my own pizzas whenever I want. Trading an hour of my time is not a good deal for pizzas, much less 3 or 4.
    - indiadev 9y ago
      Did you read the entire comment or did you just find the first point where you can find something to disagree with and give up? Read the entire comment again, if you haven't. I don't trade 3-4 hours of my time for pizzas. I trade it for additional paid time off, i.e. I put 4 hours one evening and I get back a full work day (worth 8 hours) off in return. The pizza is just a bonus.
- richardknop 9y ago
  Yes this is standard. In all my employment contracts there has been 37.5 or 40 hours defined as work week. In Europe it's mostly 37.5h so you are paid to work 7.5 hours per day and have 30 min paid lunch break.
  - wozer 9y ago
    Not sure if this is the case for most of Europe. In Germany, only a minority enjoys a 37.5h week. The obligatory lunch break is not paid.
    - richardknop 9y ago
      Yes it depends, I meant if your contracts says 37.5h, then if you go for lunch every day you should be in office 40h per week. Some companies will have paid lunch break though.
- walshemj 9y ago
  its normally expected for salaried jobs that you do on average x hours a week and that you in most days for the core hours say 10 - 4
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  It is usually specified in a law somewhere. No, salaried workers are not paid to get the job done, they are paid for the time. That is why companies can let the job loosely specified. Contract workers are the ones hired for a job, not their time. Yet, actual pricing will vary and even then some contractors will insist on getting paid by time.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  Try getting your work done in 30 hours, and say you're going home. See how far that gets you.
srtjstjsj 9y ago
It's not a pay cut if the pay is $500K-$1M/yr including expected value of stock options...
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  Unless it's a publicly traded company, stock options should be considered a bonus, and not relied upon for this. They will likely end up dilluted to hell and back, or just end up worthless.
dahart 9y ago
Working for 70+ hours a week is trading your entire life for whatever money you make, all of it. I've done it multiple times working crunches in games, and I finally realized it's not worth any amount of money. If it's really a true 70 hours, there is no social life outside of work. Once you exceed 80 hours, you are compromising your ability to exercise & sleep, and there is zero time for family. I worked 80 hour weeks after my 2nd son was born, and I didn't see much of him for six months. My wife was rightly sore about that for years, and even worse than that I regret it deeply and wish I hadn't done it. That said, I think calculating the percent pay cut feels like an awkward way to frame the issue. Very few people working 70 hours at a salaried job could get paid for 70, even contractors will normally get scaled back to 40 if they ask for 70. If you worked only 40, very few people will get another 30 hours per week job to make that extra money. (And contracts for lots of salaried employees would prevent that scenario.) The value of hours worked above 40 is your life, not a percent pay cut. It would take a jump from a 6 figure salary to a 7 figure salary, or more, to make extended 70 hours weeks worthwhile, so I think talking about a 50% pay cut is drastically undervaluing that extra effort & time.
astura 9y ago
Funny thing is that site shows up as just a black screen on Chrome on Android.[1] If they are working so much then why is their website so broken? [1] https://imgur.com/a/dWnvl https://imgur.com/a/dWnvl

by foo101 9y ago

philipov 9y ago

Does trawling HN for Github repositories and blog posts count as study? Gotta get that market research done somehow!

chrisseaton 9y ago

> Getting paid for 40 hours Do salaried jobs always specify a number of hours in their contracts? Otherwise you aren't being paid for 40 hours - you're just being paid to get the job done aren't you?

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
They should, because if they would instead offer an amount per week or month without the hours, employees could just decide to only put in 4 hours a day. Contracts work both ways. Also the definition of "getting the job done" would also have to be defined in the contract somewhere. The job advert also states "full-time", which IIRC implies a certain hours a week.
aetherson 9y ago
I mean, sure. But if you have a typical programming job, it's not like there's a clean finish line. There's always more work to do, but at some point you need to pack up and go home for the night.
- walshemj 9y ago
  then your employer needs to plan better and descope where required
  - aetherson 9y ago
    No, dude. Like, not, "There's always omigod super important crunch time work to do." There's always just ordinary "what's next on the queue" work to do. Descoping doesn't mean "We're done as software developers," it means "We aren't going to worry about getting this functionality into this release." But there's no point where you don't have a backlog. When you finish the task you're current working on, you pick up the next task. Nobody's expecting anyone to work all night on the next task, but similarly there's no place where you're like, "Okay, we're done, everyone go home for the week." So... work 40 hours-ish.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      Sounds like your employer sucks mate and probably a weak or ineffectual CTO who is not doing their job
shados 9y ago
Not really. Most of mines have had stuff like "the employee will work the amount of time needed to get stuff done", worded in legalese. Which is kind of the definition of being salaried, so it makes sense.
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
It's a very rare "get the job done" job that ever lets you finish your work and go home before 40 hours are up.
soneca 9y ago
In Brazil, yes, they always include how many hours are required. Usually 40 or 44 (the maximum allowed by our laws). I think it would be very weird to not have that in a employment contract, as time for money is the essence of employment.
doikor 9y ago
This is weird to me. At least here in Finland when you are salaried for the standard 37.5h work week (7.5h work day with 30min lunch break) if you work more then that you log the hours as overtime and get paid for them or in some form of "flex" time that you turn into vacation days or money (there are limits to how many hours of flex you can have banked up) I know some smaller companies/start ups work around this but they can very easily get in trouble as doing that is illegal (as in if even a single employee complains to the authorities about not being paid for overtime they are fucked)
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  If it's a standard number of hours what's the point in being salaried? Why don't they just pay you hourly?
  - doikor 9y ago
    Because nobody on the better paid fields would take such a contract. You could try it but you would most likely lose in the market place of jobs by all the best employees going somewhere else. As to why having a contract that pays you for the standard work week always I think people just like the security of getting roughly the same amount of money each month (or biweekly or however often you get paid). Especially once you have some money so you have mortgages, loans and credit cards to manage on top of your monthly bills. Also the hours beyond the normal work week are overtime and come with multipliers for your effective hourly rate so companies try to do their best to arrange things so that minimal amount of overtime is actually done.
    - ikeyany 9y ago
      So the point of salaries is to not have to pay overtime? No wonder everyone is becoming a contractor.
      - logfromblammo 9y ago
        The point of salaries was to pay employees by the week instead of by the hour. My first job had a weekly timecard that consisted of a checkbox: "Did you work this week?" Now, every job I have requires me to account for all my hours, so it seems like the only reason I am not a wage employee is to avoid paying me 150% base rate for hours worked beyond the first 40 in a calendar week.
indiadev 9y ago
In India, most employment agreements in the software industry mention an average of 40 work hours per week. They usually also have a disclaimer that mention that one may have to work more than 40 hours per week without any additional compensation. That's just a legal disclaimer. In reality though, in every software company (except Oracle) I have worked for overtime was rewarded with free pizzas for the extra hours we spent after sunset and also additional paid time off (known as "compensation time off").
- fred_is_fred 9y ago
  I make enough money that I can buy my own pizzas whenever I want. Trading an hour of my time is not a good deal for pizzas, much less 3 or 4.
  - indiadev 9y ago
    Did you read the entire comment or did you just find the first point where you can find something to disagree with and give up? Read the entire comment again, if you haven't. I don't trade 3-4 hours of my time for pizzas. I trade it for additional paid time off, i.e. I put 4 hours one evening and I get back a full work day (worth 8 hours) off in return. The pizza is just a bonus.
richardknop 9y ago
Yes this is standard. In all my employment contracts there has been 37.5 or 40 hours defined as work week. In Europe it's mostly 37.5h so you are paid to work 7.5 hours per day and have 30 min paid lunch break.
- wozer 9y ago
  Not sure if this is the case for most of Europe. In Germany, only a minority enjoys a 37.5h week. The obligatory lunch break is not paid.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Yes it depends, I meant if your contracts says 37.5h, then if you go for lunch every day you should be in office 40h per week. Some companies will have paid lunch break though.
walshemj 9y ago
its normally expected for salaried jobs that you do on average x hours a week and that you in most days for the core hours say 10 - 4
marcosdumay 9y ago
It is usually specified in a law somewhere. No, salaried workers are not paid to get the job done, they are paid for the time. That is why companies can let the job loosely specified. Contract workers are the ones hired for a job, not their time. Yet, actual pricing will vary and even then some contractors will insist on getting paid by time.
s73ver_ 9y ago
Try getting your work done in 30 hours, and say you're going home. See how far that gets you.

srtjstjsj 9y ago

It's not a pay cut if the pay is $500K-$1M/yr including expected value of stock options...

s73ver_ 9y ago
Unless it's a publicly traded company, stock options should be considered a bonus, and not relied upon for this. They will likely end up dilluted to hell and back, or just end up worthless.

dahart 9y ago

Working for 70+ hours a week is trading your entire life for whatever money you make, all of it. I've done it multiple times working crunches in games, and I finally realized it's not worth any amount of money. If it's really a true 70 hours, there is no social life outside of work. Once you exceed 80 hours, you are compromising your ability to exercise & sleep, and there is zero time for family. I worked 80 hour weeks after my 2nd son was born, and I didn't see much of him for six months. My wife was rightly sore about that for years, and even worse than that I regret it deeply and wish I hadn't done it. That said, I think calculating the percent pay cut feels like an awkward way to frame the issue. Very few people working 70 hours at a salaried job could get paid for 70, even contractors will normally get scaled back to 40 if they ask for 70. If you worked only 40, very few people will get another 30 hours per week job to make that extra money. (And contracts for lots of salaried employees would prevent that scenario.) The value of hours worked above 40 is your life, not a percent pay cut. It would take a jump from a 6 figure salary to a 7 figure salary, or more, to make extended 70 hours weeks worthwhile, so I think talking about a 50% pay cut is drastically undervaluing that extra effort & time.

astura 9y ago

Funny thing is that site shows up as just a black screen on Chrome on Android.[1] If they are working so much then why is their website so broken? [1] https://imgur.com/a/dWnvl https://imgur.com/a/dWnvl