8 ms·

What drives me up the wall with all recent macbooks, besides the deteriorating keyboards, is how they need a charged battery to power on. Meaning, they have to

What drives me up the wall with all recent macbooks, besides the deteriorating keyboards, is how they need a charged battery to power on. Meaning, they have to constantly drain and charge the battery even with ac plugged in. Is is really that hard to provide what has been standard in laptops for years with an additional wall power circuit? Just planned breakage so you have to keep buying new ones? Apple in the passed stressed these kinds of details, now apparently you can't even tell whether it's charging anymore without looking at the screen.

StudentStuff 9y ago
Edit: I point out Apple failing to write drivers FOR THEIR OWN LAPTOPS and I get downvotes? :/ Apple just doesn't seem to care about build quality beyond the cosmetics of their Mac lineup. A great example of this is how they have dual connections from the keyboard & trackpad to the mainboard (USB and SPI), while the UEFI and Linux have drivers to support the keyboard fully, macOS has no driver for the built-in USB connection. What this means is when your coffee spills on your Mac, the keyboard won't work in macOS. Louis Rossman did a video demonstrating Apple's lack of drivers for their own hardware: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGmC1xI4zo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGmC1xI4zo
- new299 9y ago
  Because it seems fair enough as en engineering decision? Apple also provide firmware updates far longer than most manufacturers (there was a recent-ish CCC? talk highlighting this).
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    > Because it seems fair enough as en engineering decision? Huh? Supporting hardware with drivers is purely a software decision, its not as though software adds noteworthy weight to a device. > Apple also provide firmware updates far longer than most manufacturers Only for iPhones, on Mac they leave your iCloud email in in plaintext on the UEFI after the computer is wiped. For computers, expect 6 to 7 years of macOS updates at most, meanwhile Windows & Linux offer support to ancient i386 systems still.
    - azdle 9y ago
      > Supporting hardware with drivers is purely a software decision, its not as though software adds noteworthy weight to a device. But writing drivers still takes engineering time and costs money. Why bother writing two different drivers for two different interfaces when they do the same thing?
      - StudentStuff 9y ago
        > Why bother writing two different drivers for two different interfaces when they do the same thing? Reliability and quality, the hardware is already there, why would you hamstring the product's reliability?
        azdle 9y ago
        Because a failure that causes one interface to fail, but not the other seems really unlikely. Plus it wouldn't just be another driver to write, you also have to come up with some logic that determines if one has failed and use the other instead. This isn't linux where you can reasonably tell users "oh just blacklist this kernel driver and it'll use the other instead."
        StudentStuff 9y ago
        > a failure that causes one interface to fail, but not the other seems really unlikely. Go follow that link in my original post. Its a fairly common water damage issue for Macbooks where the SPI bus will be damaged, but the USB connection will be fine. > come up with some logic that determines if one has failed and use the other instead. Once again, go follow that link. Apple already built the logic, just instead of switching to USB, it begs you to pair a bluetooth keyboard!
        azdle 9y ago
        Ah, sorry, I wasn't somewhere I could watch the video. If that's the case, I take back what I said, it could probably make sense to include both drivers then.
- fish_fan 9y ago
  Thankfully I have no expectation my keyboard will work after spilling water on it.
- Dunedan 9y ago
  > Apple just doesn't seem to care about build quality beyond the cosmetics of their Mac lineup. A great example of this is how they have dual connections from the keyboard & trackpad to the mainboard (USB and SPI), while the UEFI and Linux have drivers to support the keyboard fully, macOS has no driver for the built-in USB connection. Well, it's complicated. In the past mobile Macs used USB to connect the input devices like most other notebooks do. At a certain point Apple decided that it would be a good idea to switch to SPI for power consumption reasons. Following that decision there were certain models which had wired both, e.g. the MacBook Pro 2015. While Apple switched already to use SPI there, Linux still used USB, as there was simply no driver support. The Retina MacBook in 2015 was the first mobile Mac which didn't support USB for input devices anymore. The MacBook Pro followed in late 2016. That left Linux without a working driver for the input devices. A year ago somebody started to reverse engineer the SPI protocol to get a working driver: https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ The release of the SPI-only MacBook Pros end of last year sparked the further development of this driver, so it's slowly reaching a state were everything is just working (maybe except for advanced Touchpad features). That driver is still not included in any major Linux distribution, as it's still pretty experimental and also required patching the Linux kernel for quite some time, because Apple does some ACPI-related stuff different than the PC-world. Thankfully support for Apples way will land in the upcoming Linux 4.14 (https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/53ac64aac9af8cd0e5456c8a9bb68c47b571b0a9 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/53ac64aac9af8cd0e54...) making some code in the driver redundant (https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/pull/46 https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/pull/46). So I would say that whole topic isn't about not to care about build quality, but about to care about power consumption. Still having USB on some generations of Macs in addition to SPI was probably simply to ease the migration by unbundling the hardware changes from the software changes.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
It's more about voltage than power, so you are wrong that they necessarily drain the battery when plugged in . Anyways, this isn't new at all, it was the same with PowerBook Duo.
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  Why does every other laptop manufacturer include circuits to handle this use case, yet Apple has failed to do so for 24 years? Same deal with the lack of keyboard texturing on Macs, providing a flat surface for bacteria, oils and dirt to collect on your laptop's keyboard. Other manufacturers commonly add an anti-microbial texture to their keyboards, which also wards off most of the grease you see on Mac keyboards.
  - jefflinwood 9y ago
    Point of reference here - I plugged in an old 2008 Macbook Pro with no battery (it had expanded, so I took it back to Apple for recycling), and it booted up fine from a Magsafe 1 charger. So I don't know if that's the case.
    - StudentStuff 9y ago
      It was the case for me and @m_mueller apparently, my old MBP had one of those inflated batteries from heat likely, the only other device I've seen a battery puff up like that in is an old Blackberry. No bueno! Never seen significant puffage in the used/broken Li-Ion battery packs I've rebuilt either, so presumably that is moderately unique to Apple?
      - _jal 9y ago
        It is unique to the laws of physics in this universe. If you look around, you'll find video of exploding flashlights, and it wasn't Apple that recently had airlines forbidding you to bring their devices onto planes... So, that's drivers, batteries, and keyboard-coatings; what's next?
djsumdog 9y ago
Seriously? I did not know this. The battery in my old MSI died recently (no longer charges) but I can still use it plugged into a wall. I thought "Well that's good. At least it's not like a shitty cellphone where it has to build up a minimum," but .. guess that's not true now for MacBooks?
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
Doesn't seem to impact battery life much, so they handle that properly at least - I've got old Macbooks that were on AC all the time, marginal degradation of the batteries.
JustFinishedBSG 9y ago
> Meaning, they have to constantly drain and charge the battery even with ac plugged in. I'm nearly certain this is wrong
- rasz 9y ago
  partially, charger is too weak to power whole laptop, so the whole thing requires battery as a buffer. Similarly X220/230 will throttle to half the speed (~1GHz) when using 65W charger (instead of recommended 90W) and no/empty battery.
9935c101ab17a66 9y ago
I don't quite understand what you're saying. Are you asserting that modern Mac computers will not turn on without a battery installed (which is not true in my experience), or are you asserting that trickle power is a bad thing (also not true in my experience)? Maybe I'm missing your point altogether. Edit: did some research, I will admit it is possible that newer MacBook pros with an embedded battery may not power on if it is not connected (not sure about this). But I know my 2010 15-inch MacBook Pro does power on and run without a battery connceted (I use it as a media server), and I'm pretty sure most MacBook airs would run without a battery connected as well.

StudentStuff 9y ago

Edit: I point out Apple failing to write drivers FOR THEIR OWN LAPTOPS and I get downvotes? :/ Apple just doesn't seem to care about build quality beyond the cosmetics of their Mac lineup. A great example of this is how they have dual connections from the keyboard & trackpad to the mainboard (USB and SPI), while the UEFI and Linux have drivers to support the keyboard fully, macOS has no driver for the built-in USB connection. What this means is when your coffee spills on your Mac, the keyboard won't work in macOS. Louis Rossman did a video demonstrating Apple's lack of drivers for their own hardware: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGmC1xI4zo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGmC1xI4zo

new299 9y ago
Because it seems fair enough as en engineering decision? Apple also provide firmware updates far longer than most manufacturers (there was a recent-ish CCC? talk highlighting this).
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  > Because it seems fair enough as en engineering decision? Huh? Supporting hardware with drivers is purely a software decision, its not as though software adds noteworthy weight to a device. > Apple also provide firmware updates far longer than most manufacturers Only for iPhones, on Mac they leave your iCloud email in in plaintext on the UEFI after the computer is wiped. For computers, expect 6 to 7 years of macOS updates at most, meanwhile Windows & Linux offer support to ancient i386 systems still.
  - azdle 9y ago
    > Supporting hardware with drivers is purely a software decision, its not as though software adds noteworthy weight to a device. But writing drivers still takes engineering time and costs money. Why bother writing two different drivers for two different interfaces when they do the same thing?
    - StudentStuff 9y ago
      > Why bother writing two different drivers for two different interfaces when they do the same thing? Reliability and quality, the hardware is already there, why would you hamstring the product's reliability?
      - azdle 9y ago
        Because a failure that causes one interface to fail, but not the other seems really unlikely. Plus it wouldn't just be another driver to write, you also have to come up with some logic that determines if one has failed and use the other instead. This isn't linux where you can reasonably tell users "oh just blacklist this kernel driver and it'll use the other instead."
        StudentStuff 9y ago
        > a failure that causes one interface to fail, but not the other seems really unlikely. Go follow that link in my original post. Its a fairly common water damage issue for Macbooks where the SPI bus will be damaged, but the USB connection will be fine. > come up with some logic that determines if one has failed and use the other instead. Once again, go follow that link. Apple already built the logic, just instead of switching to USB, it begs you to pair a bluetooth keyboard!
        azdle 9y ago
        Ah, sorry, I wasn't somewhere I could watch the video. If that's the case, I take back what I said, it could probably make sense to include both drivers then.
fish_fan 9y ago
Thankfully I have no expectation my keyboard will work after spilling water on it.
Dunedan 9y ago
> Apple just doesn't seem to care about build quality beyond the cosmetics of their Mac lineup. A great example of this is how they have dual connections from the keyboard & trackpad to the mainboard (USB and SPI), while the UEFI and Linux have drivers to support the keyboard fully, macOS has no driver for the built-in USB connection. Well, it's complicated. In the past mobile Macs used USB to connect the input devices like most other notebooks do. At a certain point Apple decided that it would be a good idea to switch to SPI for power consumption reasons. Following that decision there were certain models which had wired both, e.g. the MacBook Pro 2015. While Apple switched already to use SPI there, Linux still used USB, as there was simply no driver support. The Retina MacBook in 2015 was the first mobile Mac which didn't support USB for input devices anymore. The MacBook Pro followed in late 2016. That left Linux without a working driver for the input devices. A year ago somebody started to reverse engineer the SPI protocol to get a working driver: https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ The release of the SPI-only MacBook Pros end of last year sparked the further development of this driver, so it's slowly reaching a state were everything is just working (maybe except for advanced Touchpad features). That driver is still not included in any major Linux distribution, as it's still pretty experimental and also required patching the Linux kernel for quite some time, because Apple does some ACPI-related stuff different than the PC-world. Thankfully support for Apples way will land in the upcoming Linux 4.14 (https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/53ac64aac9af8cd0e5456c8a9bb68c47b571b0a9 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/53ac64aac9af8cd0e54...) making some code in the driver redundant (https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/pull/46 https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/pull/46). So I would say that whole topic isn't about not to care about build quality, but about to care about power consumption. Still having USB on some generations of Macs in addition to SPI was probably simply to ease the migration by unbundling the hardware changes from the software changes.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

It's more about voltage than power, so you are wrong that they necessarily drain the battery when plugged in . Anyways, this isn't new at all, it was the same with PowerBook Duo.

StudentStuff 9y ago
Why does every other laptop manufacturer include circuits to handle this use case, yet Apple has failed to do so for 24 years? Same deal with the lack of keyboard texturing on Macs, providing a flat surface for bacteria, oils and dirt to collect on your laptop's keyboard. Other manufacturers commonly add an anti-microbial texture to their keyboards, which also wards off most of the grease you see on Mac keyboards.
- jefflinwood 9y ago
  Point of reference here - I plugged in an old 2008 Macbook Pro with no battery (it had expanded, so I took it back to Apple for recycling), and it booted up fine from a Magsafe 1 charger. So I don't know if that's the case.
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    It was the case for me and @m_mueller apparently, my old MBP had one of those inflated batteries from heat likely, the only other device I've seen a battery puff up like that in is an old Blackberry. No bueno! Never seen significant puffage in the used/broken Li-Ion battery packs I've rebuilt either, so presumably that is moderately unique to Apple?
    - _jal 9y ago
      It is unique to the laws of physics in this universe. If you look around, you'll find video of exploding flashlights, and it wasn't Apple that recently had airlines forbidding you to bring their devices onto planes... So, that's drivers, batteries, and keyboard-coatings; what's next?

djsumdog 9y ago

Seriously? I did not know this. The battery in my old MSI died recently (no longer charges) but I can still use it plugged into a wall. I thought "Well that's good. At least it's not like a shitty cellphone where it has to build up a minimum," but .. guess that's not true now for MacBooks?

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

Doesn't seem to impact battery life much, so they handle that properly at least - I've got old Macbooks that were on AC all the time, marginal degradation of the batteries.

JustFinishedBSG 9y ago

> Meaning, they have to constantly drain and charge the battery even with ac plugged in. I'm nearly certain this is wrong

rasz 9y ago
partially, charger is too weak to power whole laptop, so the whole thing requires battery as a buffer. Similarly X220/230 will throttle to half the speed (~1GHz) when using 65W charger (instead of recommended 90W) and no/empty battery.

9935c101ab17a66 9y ago

I don't quite understand what you're saying. Are you asserting that modern Mac computers will not turn on without a battery installed (which is not true in my experience), or are you asserting that trickle power is a bad thing (also not true in my experience)? Maybe I'm missing your point altogether. Edit: did some research, I will admit it is possible that newer MacBook pros with an embedded battery may not power on if it is not connected (not sure about this). But I know my 2010 15-inch MacBook Pro does power on and run without a battery connceted (I use it as a media server), and I'm pretty sure most MacBook airs would run without a battery connected as well.