8 ms·

I keep hearing about Taler from a friend of mine, but there hasn't been much adoption among banks or credit unions, limiting its usefulness. The banking sector

I keep hearing about Taler from a friend of mine, but there hasn't been much adoption among banks or credit unions, limiting its usefulness. The banking sector in the US is a mosaic of banks and credit unions running a wide variety of debit networks, with ACH vaguely tying them all together. I wish it was easier to move money between banks here, seems like the quickest way is to write a check!

throwanem 9y ago
ACH is quicker but much less secure, because the initiator has to have the recipient's account number and bank routing number, which also suffice to initiate wire withdrawals that do not require confirmation to complete and can't easily (if at all) be clawed back.
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  The average person doesn't have access to an ACH console though, and most banks & credit unions offer local transfers only, with "Bill Pay" that is just them mailing checks out for you. ACH is essentially for businesses only currently.
  - colanderman 9y ago
    A few years back I was able to configure payments for my Citizens' Bank credit card from a non-Citizens' checking account without any verification. Needless to say I was livid and contacted their customer service, who were basically like "yup that's how it works". (I closed my account with them soon thereafter. Citizens' is awful for other reasons.)
  - snuxoll 9y ago
    Most (if not all) of the major banks and some credit unions have joined Zele (formerly clearXchange) [1] to handle person-to-person transfers. Only since the rebrand has it been obvious that each banks person-to-person service is part of a multi-bank network, but I've been using it to pay my landlady since I moved into my house last May (money is transferred instantly, so there's no worry about timing a check with bill pay's slowness - and she never gets a piece of paper with my account information on it either). It's taken forever, but I'm hopeful with the big banks getting onboard Zele for person-to-person payments we may see something similar to the push-based systems other countries have for making everyday transactions online someday. [1] https://www.zellepay.com/ https://www.zellepay.com/
    - StudentStuff 9y ago
      There is also Popmoney, which seems to have a few dozen more Credit Unions (though no BECU :c), they also have the big banks.
    - diggernet 9y ago
      How does Zelle compare to Venmo on things like fraud protection and customer service? (I imagine simply not being owned by PayPal is a real good start.)
      - jdmichal 9y ago
        Unsure on how Venmo works, but I can explain Zelle / clearXchange some. (I've done this a lot on HN; it's nice to see someone else taking up the mantle on this thread!) With Zelle, everything is done through your participating bank. So customer service is managed through your bank, and fraud is probably the same way. You register with Zelle through your bank, which means your bank associates your email and / or phone number with your account within the Zelle system. After being associated, other people with a participating bank can send you money using that email or phone number. The money is instantly deducted from the sender's account, and is typically in the receiver's account within minutes or hours. Since you can only initiate payments through Zelle and not withdraws, fraud is likely managed the same as wires or bill pay.
      - StudentStuff 9y ago
        Venmo has basically no protections, its much sketchier than PayPal. If the person who sent you money wants to reverse the transaction, there is nothing stopping them if its a person to person transaction.
      - snuxoll 9y ago
        A "proper" setup integrates Zelle directly with your bank, aside from clicking the "Send money with Zelle" button being the only hint a third-party is involved the transaction is initiated and settled directly within your banks online account management system. When done this way your bank of choice takes responsibility for fraud and customer service, with the Zelle network silently working behind the scenes to match email/mobile numbers up with destination accounts. If you don't have a participating bank, things get a little more annoying since you can still use the service on its own by registering an account and tying your checking account to it - then the classic 3rd-party intermediary problem comes in. On that note though, Zelle is owned by big banks, Bank of America, Capital One, JPMorgan Chase, Wells Fargo, etc., so even as sleazy as the banks are I have a lot more faith in them not screwing it up (they don't like fraud, and they want you to keep your money with them - even as greedy as they are). In all honesty, it's probably the best setup we have for Person-to-Person transfers in the US - as more banks and credit unions adopt it you'll hopefully just open the app for your bank of choice on your phone and initiate a payment, no third party trying to take a cut, you call the bank you (hopefully) already trust for support, and as a result you remove one more account tied to your banking information that can be compromised to steal your money.
- mcguire 9y ago
  Checks also include the payer's account number and bank routing number.
pjmlp 9y ago
Uau, checks are still in use?!
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  Yep, checks are very common, its how most people pay rent, larger bills, etc in the USA. Credit Unions and Banks here offer "Bill Pay", which is just them mailing out a check on your behalf. Cash is popular here too, many of the grocers I work with see 40% to 60% of their revenue in cash, though that market segment has discouraged check use (with the exception of Costco).
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    In most European countries checks are not trusted anymore by common business, given the usual fraud schemes, and in some banks you need to jump through a few hoops to get them (only crossed or pre-validated). Digital payments have replaced the majority of checks.
    - elliottcarlson 9y ago
      It depends on the trust relationship -- stores will not accept checks from customers most of the time anymore, however as the parent said, rent and utilities are still often paid via check as there is an established relationship between the payer and payee.
      - maxerickson 9y ago
        National retailers mostly accept checks; they just treat them as debit card transactions though, scanning the numbers and printing the check for the customer, even handing it back to the customer after it is accepted. I guess it isn't even limited to national retailers, the independent grocer here does it too, I guess because it is worthwhile for them to pay for it.
        snuxoll 9y ago
TomK32 9y ago
SEPA, guaranteed wire transfers over night and in November this year a payment under 15000€ will happen in 10s (ten seconds!). Not even Bitcoin can do that anymore with transactions taking more and more time (or fees). If the US gov would put some weight behind it, the US could easily catch up.
- nannal 9y ago
  >transactions taking more and more time Bitcoin blocks will always be ~10 minutes, if you pay the fee to get into the next block, it'll be 10 minutes until your payment is confirmed, before that, all the nodes will announce it anyway so 0 conf is much faster.
  - shpx 9y ago
    Although bitcoin aims to generate a block every 10 minutes, in practice it usually takes longer than that. As I'm writing this, the last block[0] took 30 minutes to mine (sometimes it spikes to hours though[1]). Most importantly, a transaction needs[2] to be confirmed 4-6 times[3] meaning it should be 4-6 blocks in the past, so you're looking at a 1-2 hour transaction time. On top of that, if you want to pay less than a certain transaction fee[4] (right now it's $1.62[5]) you probably won't get into the next block, see https://bitcoinfees.github.io https://bitcoinfees.github.io. Recall that 1 block = 20 minutes and add that on top of the confirmation time. [0] https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000005f0e639f66af0e85c767bfd5cb75cf3fd1ebe8557c68f6 https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000005f0e639f66af... look at the Timestamps of this block and the Previous Block [1] https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time?timespan=1year https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time?timespa... [2] https://youtu.be/bBC-nXj3Ng4?t=18m41s https://youtu.be/bBC-nXj3Ng4?t=18m41s [3] https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf page 8 [4] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees [5] https://bitcoinfees.21.co/ https://bitcoinfees.21.co/ (a satoshi is 0.00000001 BTC, 10,000 satoshi is 40 cents right now) https://www.gwern.net/Bitcoin-is-Worse-is-Better https://www.gwern.net/Bitcoin-is-Worse-is-Better
  - joosters 9y ago
    It's impossible to know how much to pay to get into the next block. If there's 10 payments waiting to get into the next block and there's only space for 9, there's no way they are all going into the block, regardless of their fees. Users don't want to play a complicated expensive, impossible to win game in order to get their payments processed in a known timeframe.
fcbrooklyn 9y ago
Once upon a time, a friend of mine needed to repay me for a loan of about $1000. Since we both banked at HSBC, we figured walking into the bank together might be a simple way to do that. Nope. I had opened my hsbc account online, he had opened his account in person. Therefore we may as well have been two separate banks, apparently. After debating the sanity of this system with a bank manager (whose fault it clearly was not), I noticed a big sign on their ATM. It said "Now accepting cash deposits!". I asked the guy if there was a limit on the size of those deposits. There was. I can't remember how much, but it was in the neighborhood of five grand I think. My friend took a withdrawal in cash. He handed me the money. I walked over to the machine and deposited it. Makes sense if you look at it sideways.
- loeg 9y ago
  There are also checks for that kind of thing.
  - scott_karana 9y ago
    Cheques don't typically clear immediately (to crudely attempt to prevent overdraft/double spending attempts) and can have a cost associated with their purchase.
  - rmc 9y ago
    Cheques are uncommon in Europe now-a-days.
  - fcbrooklyn 9y ago
    They take five days to clear, however.
- asveikau 9y ago
  About ten years ago I moved from New York State to Washington State. I wanted a bank account that would follow me and Chase had not yet bought WaMu so I went to BoA in NY, opened an account, moved my money into it. I arrived in Seattle and at the BoA branch there they said they didn't recognize BoA of New York. I couldn't deposit into the WA branch. I could write myself a check and it would be processed with the reduced speed of a check from an out of state bank.
raggi 9y ago
Bringing agpl into a banks systems would cause lots of fears. Adoption there is unlikely.
peterbotond 9y ago
I read "vaguely tying them together" as "usually it works, sometimes not". This latter is my experience. Electronic transfers enjoy a certain priority also, direct deposit, wire transfer, cash or check deposit at atm or branch are all different for different banks. In other words, it is a vague description when things clear. Some banks are better to their customers some are not so much. I live in the US. An improvement is most certainly welcome and appreciated.

throwanem 9y ago

ACH is quicker but much less secure, because the initiator has to have the recipient's account number and bank routing number, which also suffice to initiate wire withdrawals that do not require confirmation to complete and can't easily (if at all) be clawed back.

StudentStuff 9y ago
The average person doesn't have access to an ACH console though, and most banks & credit unions offer local transfers only, with "Bill Pay" that is just them mailing checks out for you. ACH is essentially for businesses only currently.
- colanderman 9y ago
  A few years back I was able to configure payments for my Citizens' Bank credit card from a non-Citizens' checking account without any verification. Needless to say I was livid and contacted their customer service, who were basically like "yup that's how it works". (I closed my account with them soon thereafter. Citizens' is awful for other reasons.)
- snuxoll 9y ago
  Most (if not all) of the major banks and some credit unions have joined Zele (formerly clearXchange) [1] to handle person-to-person transfers. Only since the rebrand has it been obvious that each banks person-to-person service is part of a multi-bank network, but I've been using it to pay my landlady since I moved into my house last May (money is transferred instantly, so there's no worry about timing a check with bill pay's slowness - and she never gets a piece of paper with my account information on it either). It's taken forever, but I'm hopeful with the big banks getting onboard Zele for person-to-person payments we may see something similar to the push-based systems other countries have for making everyday transactions online someday. [1] https://www.zellepay.com/ https://www.zellepay.com/
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    There is also Popmoney, which seems to have a few dozen more Credit Unions (though no BECU :c), they also have the big banks.
  - diggernet 9y ago
    How does Zelle compare to Venmo on things like fraud protection and customer service? (I imagine simply not being owned by PayPal is a real good start.)
    - jdmichal 9y ago
      Unsure on how Venmo works, but I can explain Zelle / clearXchange some. (I've done this a lot on HN; it's nice to see someone else taking up the mantle on this thread!) With Zelle, everything is done through your participating bank. So customer service is managed through your bank, and fraud is probably the same way. You register with Zelle through your bank, which means your bank associates your email and / or phone number with your account within the Zelle system. After being associated, other people with a participating bank can send you money using that email or phone number. The money is instantly deducted from the sender's account, and is typically in the receiver's account within minutes or hours. Since you can only initiate payments through Zelle and not withdraws, fraud is likely managed the same as wires or bill pay.
    - StudentStuff 9y ago
      Venmo has basically no protections, its much sketchier than PayPal. If the person who sent you money wants to reverse the transaction, there is nothing stopping them if its a person to person transaction.
    - snuxoll 9y ago
      A "proper" setup integrates Zelle directly with your bank, aside from clicking the "Send money with Zelle" button being the only hint a third-party is involved the transaction is initiated and settled directly within your banks online account management system. When done this way your bank of choice takes responsibility for fraud and customer service, with the Zelle network silently working behind the scenes to match email/mobile numbers up with destination accounts. If you don't have a participating bank, things get a little more annoying since you can still use the service on its own by registering an account and tying your checking account to it - then the classic 3rd-party intermediary problem comes in. On that note though, Zelle is owned by big banks, Bank of America, Capital One, JPMorgan Chase, Wells Fargo, etc., so even as sleazy as the banks are I have a lot more faith in them not screwing it up (they don't like fraud, and they want you to keep your money with them - even as greedy as they are). In all honesty, it's probably the best setup we have for Person-to-Person transfers in the US - as more banks and credit unions adopt it you'll hopefully just open the app for your bank of choice on your phone and initiate a payment, no third party trying to take a cut, you call the bank you (hopefully) already trust for support, and as a result you remove one more account tied to your banking information that can be compromised to steal your money.
mcguire 9y ago
Checks also include the payer's account number and bank routing number.

pjmlp 9y ago

Uau, checks are still in use?!

StudentStuff 9y ago
Yep, checks are very common, its how most people pay rent, larger bills, etc in the USA. Credit Unions and Banks here offer "Bill Pay", which is just them mailing out a check on your behalf. Cash is popular here too, many of the grocers I work with see 40% to 60% of their revenue in cash, though that market segment has discouraged check use (with the exception of Costco).
- pjmlp 9y ago
  In most European countries checks are not trusted anymore by common business, given the usual fraud schemes, and in some banks you need to jump through a few hoops to get them (only crossed or pre-validated). Digital payments have replaced the majority of checks.
  - elliottcarlson 9y ago
    It depends on the trust relationship -- stores will not accept checks from customers most of the time anymore, however as the parent said, rent and utilities are still often paid via check as there is an established relationship between the payer and payee.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      National retailers mostly accept checks; they just treat them as debit card transactions though, scanning the numbers and printing the check for the customer, even handing it back to the customer after it is accepted. I guess it isn't even limited to national retailers, the independent grocer here does it too, I guess because it is worthwhile for them to pay for it.
      - snuxoll 9y ago

TomK32 9y ago

SEPA, guaranteed wire transfers over night and in November this year a payment under 15000€ will happen in 10s (ten seconds!). Not even Bitcoin can do that anymore with transactions taking more and more time (or fees). If the US gov would put some weight behind it, the US could easily catch up.

nannal 9y ago
>transactions taking more and more time Bitcoin blocks will always be ~10 minutes, if you pay the fee to get into the next block, it'll be 10 minutes until your payment is confirmed, before that, all the nodes will announce it anyway so 0 conf is much faster.
- shpx 9y ago
  Although bitcoin aims to generate a block every 10 minutes, in practice it usually takes longer than that. As I'm writing this, the last block[0] took 30 minutes to mine (sometimes it spikes to hours though[1]). Most importantly, a transaction needs[2] to be confirmed 4-6 times[3] meaning it should be 4-6 blocks in the past, so you're looking at a 1-2 hour transaction time. On top of that, if you want to pay less than a certain transaction fee[4] (right now it's $1.62[5]) you probably won't get into the next block, see https://bitcoinfees.github.io https://bitcoinfees.github.io. Recall that 1 block = 20 minutes and add that on top of the confirmation time. [0] https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000005f0e639f66af0e85c767bfd5cb75cf3fd1ebe8557c68f6 https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000005f0e639f66af... look at the Timestamps of this block and the Previous Block [1] https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time?timespan=1year https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time?timespa... [2] https://youtu.be/bBC-nXj3Ng4?t=18m41s https://youtu.be/bBC-nXj3Ng4?t=18m41s [3] https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf page 8 [4] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees [5] https://bitcoinfees.21.co/ https://bitcoinfees.21.co/ (a satoshi is 0.00000001 BTC, 10,000 satoshi is 40 cents right now) https://www.gwern.net/Bitcoin-is-Worse-is-Better https://www.gwern.net/Bitcoin-is-Worse-is-Better
- joosters 9y ago
  It's impossible to know how much to pay to get into the next block. If there's 10 payments waiting to get into the next block and there's only space for 9, there's no way they are all going into the block, regardless of their fees. Users don't want to play a complicated expensive, impossible to win game in order to get their payments processed in a known timeframe.

fcbrooklyn 9y ago

Once upon a time, a friend of mine needed to repay me for a loan of about $1000. Since we both banked at HSBC, we figured walking into the bank together might be a simple way to do that. Nope. I had opened my hsbc account online, he had opened his account in person. Therefore we may as well have been two separate banks, apparently. After debating the sanity of this system with a bank manager (whose fault it clearly was not), I noticed a big sign on their ATM. It said "Now accepting cash deposits!". I asked the guy if there was a limit on the size of those deposits. There was. I can't remember how much, but it was in the neighborhood of five grand I think. My friend took a withdrawal in cash. He handed me the money. I walked over to the machine and deposited it. Makes sense if you look at it sideways.

loeg 9y ago
There are also checks for that kind of thing.
- scott_karana 9y ago
  Cheques don't typically clear immediately (to crudely attempt to prevent overdraft/double spending attempts) and can have a cost associated with their purchase.
- rmc 9y ago
  Cheques are uncommon in Europe now-a-days.
- fcbrooklyn 9y ago
  They take five days to clear, however.
asveikau 9y ago
About ten years ago I moved from New York State to Washington State. I wanted a bank account that would follow me and Chase had not yet bought WaMu so I went to BoA in NY, opened an account, moved my money into it. I arrived in Seattle and at the BoA branch there they said they didn't recognize BoA of New York. I couldn't deposit into the WA branch. I could write myself a check and it would be processed with the reduced speed of a check from an out of state bank.

raggi 9y ago

Bringing agpl into a banks systems would cause lots of fears. Adoption there is unlikely.

peterbotond 9y ago

I read "vaguely tying them together" as "usually it works, sometimes not". This latter is my experience. Electronic transfers enjoy a certain priority also, direct deposit, wire transfer, cash or check deposit at atm or branch are all different for different banks. In other words, it is a vague description when things clear. Some banks are better to their customers some are not so much. I live in the US. An improvement is most certainly welcome and appreciated.