11 ms·

I went out shopping a few weekends ago to see what the current offering on laptops looks like. I ended up in an Apple store, and after only a few seconds fiddli

I went out shopping a few weekends ago to see what the current offering on laptops looks like. I ended up in an Apple store, and after only a few seconds fiddling with a MacBook, I walked straight back out again. That keyboard is terrible. I don't care how many other things Apple's line has going for it - if the primary interface to the device is that bad, I just can't imagine using it. I wish there were more laptops out there with the old style ThinkPad keyboard on them :(

ergo14 9y ago
I like the KB on the dell latitude line.
- MrMid 9y ago
  I don't like these so much. I have an E7240 for a year now, and while it's great compared to most other laptops, I still prefer the keyboard of my ThinkPad X61s. When I tried the X230 keyboard, it also felt somewhat better than that of my Latitude. That said, when I used Lenovo Yoga for a while, I was just surprised how bad a keyboard could be. I love my Latitude. EDIT: and I miss the TrackPoint, although with a touchscreen it doesn't matter so much.
  - ergo14 9y ago
    My latitude E5470 has a backlit kb with trackpoint, I had to pay for it though.
mrmondo 9y ago
On my work desktop (iMac 5k) I use a Das ultimate mechanical keyboard, I’ve been a big fan of Das keyboards with Blue or Brown switches for many years, I purchased a MacBook 12” Retina when they came out and it certainly took some adjusting to get used to the new keyboard but - after a week or so I really, truly liked it, I found myself typing very fast will a low error rate, when the new MacBook Pro came out a few months back I noted that they used a new generation of the same low profile keys that the MacBook 12” had, again I really enjoyed it because I was used to new style of key mechanism thanks to having the 12” for some time, I ended up buying a 13” MBP and oh my I’d almost go as far as saying I love the keyboard. Yes it’s very different from both mechanical keyboards such as my Das keyboards and legacy laptop keyboard designs and I think after a short adjustment period many people would likely enjoy the feel of the keys more than legacy / previous designs - it really grows on you.
- cordite 9y ago
  As someone used to mechanical keyboards, I seem to keep physically straining or even internally bruising my right pinky on the Mac keyboards. I'm not sure what to do apart from not using the laptop keyboards (both 2013 style and 2016 style)
  - tertius 9y ago
    Right pinky brigade checking in. Mechanical solved this for me instantly.
    - _jal 9y ago
      Ditto. If you experience this, get a mechanical board immediately.
      - k__ 9y ago
        For me it was the other way around. Avoiding mechanical keyboards all my life and never got one of these typical programmer health issues.
        _jal 9y ago
        Just like this tiger-repellent rock that has kept me safe from tigers my entire life.
        k__ 9y ago
        Hehe, yes, maybe my genes are superior ;P But seriously, I never understood the craze for these clunky things. Almost all devs I know use them and most of them have issues with their arms/hands.
        _jal 9y ago
        I use them. Cause and effect have a direction: I switched to mech boards because I was having wrist trouble. It made all the difference for me - they're fine now. Other reasons people like them usually are about customizability. If you think of it as being roughly similar to how some people can be about noodling with cars, you won't be too far off-base. - With the right firmware, they are fully customizable - you can remap things how you like, create macros, whatever, and config is stored on the board. - You can customize the switches - there are a bewildering array of switch options. People also spend lots of time customizing switches in various ways to change how they feel. - Layouts - keyboard nerds have produced a huge array of different layouts. - Looks - you can buy your own keycaps. Those, too, come in a wide array of profiles and appearances. Some people make really nice boards out of metal, wood, sometimes odder things (I heard about someone trying to make cases out of Corian at one point). If you like that sort of thing, you can have them covered in blinky LEDs. There's a whole tiny art scene making keycap-sculptures that go for a ton of money, relatively speaking. And that's before you get to the crazy stuff that leads to people paying $1k+ on a keyboard. Really, it is like anything else - people do a lot of things as hobbies that look odd from outside.
robin_reala 9y ago
Counterpoint: I got a new Macbook Pro from my job and I’m really enjoying the new keyboard: very little travel but a satisfying click to every press and minimal actuation pressure.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  Same. The whole debate is pointless and you can't rest judge a keyboard with a few minutes in the Apple store
- jjrrmm 9y ago
  Yes, exactly this!
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  I also really like the new keyboard. I use an older MBP for work and it used to be my favorite key design. Now it feels mushy. For people who like to hit their keys hard, I can see it being a problem. For most though, give it a week and you'll be back up to speed and won't want to trade back.
  - always_good 9y ago
    The main downside is that mine got kinda mushy / misfire at the one-year mark. I'm currently living abroad, but ideally I'd be able to bring my Macbook Pro into the Apple store next time I'm in the States and get all the keyboard switches replaced. Is that possible?
- jclardy 9y ago
  Same here. I use a Whitefox (with blues) at my desk, but I have grown quite accustomed to the 2016 MBP keyboard. For me the key stability + clickiness are what I like about it. Yes the throw is short, but I was never a "slam my fingers down on the keys" kind of typer. I'm actually thinking about switching to a mechanical with a shorter throw for my desk (Not nearly as short as the MBP, but about half of what most mechanical boards are.)
- lukeschlather 9y ago
0xJRS 9y ago
I actually didn't like the new mbp keyboard at first but once I got used to it I actually started to really like it - And im usually a mech snob myself.
KozmoNau7 9y ago
The Macbook chiclet keyboards are bad, but the new Thinkpad keyboard are great (at least on the X- and T-series). Yes, I know the layout has changes and seems weird at first, but I honestly think it works great, after having used it for a while. And I have a T420 as my personal laptop, the last T-series with the original 7-row keyboard.
- gcb0 9y ago
  just avoid anything that costs less than 1200$ at thinkpad. the E series keyboard are even worse than apple's
  - basch 9y ago
    i have an E470 sitting next to a X1 Carbon 5th gen, and I can tell you you are very wrong. The plastic is a different texture, but they otherwise feel nearly identical. The only key I can feel a big difference in the tension on, is the spacebar. The layouts are identical. Everyone shits on the E series, but since they got rid of the CD Drive and put the old trackpad back, they have been nice cheap pcs.
    - gcb0 9y ago
      good to know they went back on the crap they were doing with the E series. I badmouth it because when i saw them in person (bought online, returned) they deserved it so badly that i didn't even consider another lenovo afterwards
- 51Cards 9y ago
  Another voice for the higher grade Thinkpad chicklet keyboards. My W530 came with one and as a long long time Thinkpad owner I was wary but I have been hammering on this for a few years now and it really has been great. Just the right amount of key feel for me.
- fumar 9y ago
  I can't believe all these years of typing on newer Macs (even the new pro), Surfaces, Dells, Gateways, etc. I never owned a ThinkPad until recently. The keyboard on my yoga 370 has unveiled a new world of typing. The TrackPoint is a gamechanger. I just ordered an old X230 and plan to spruce it up and use as my home PC. Might even try to dualboot MacOS.
afro88 9y ago
Define terrible. If terrible means trying something for a few seconds and hating it then sure, that's terrible. But by that definition coffee is terrible. When I first tried coffee I hated it within a few seconds. Of course I love it now and have for 2 decades. I had the same kind of reaction to the new keyboard (albeit nowhere near as strongly). It's great now though. The small travel, the sound of it, it's quite effortless for typing. It's definitely an improvement over the old one, in my experience.
- izacus 9y ago
  I've used the keyboard for months now and it's still the worst keyboard I've ever used. Am I allowed to call it terrible now? :)
  - kevinherron 9y ago
    Anyone is free to call it whatever they want. I've been using my 2016 MBP TB since near its release and it's my favorite laptop keyboard I've ever used.
    - StudentStuff 9y ago
      I hope other manufacturers don't follow their lead. Greasy, bacteria covered, minimal travel keyboards are a great way to make people hate typing.
      - pilsetnieks 9y ago
        If your minimal travel keyboard is greasy and bacteria covered, I guarantee you your maximum depth mechanical keyboard is just as greasy and bacteria covered.
        StudentStuff 9y ago
        Not if you have a slightly textured keyboard and clean it on occasion. Apple's dead flat plastic keys on their laptop and bluetooth keyboards are a perfect growth medium for bacteria, while also accreting oil much more readily.
simonh 9y ago
I've tried it myself and it does feel weird, but I know a couple of people who have those that absolutely swear by them. My wife is a nurse and one of the consultants at a party a few weeks ago was raving about how much he loves his MacBook. Even within the Apple user community there's a bit of a divide. But isn't that a good thing? Why would you expect every single Apple product to suite you personally, to the point where if just one device isn't right for you, you won't even look at any of the others?
dsego 9y ago
For me it is nice to type on, but the keys have already started popping out after less than a year, very flimsy indeed.
cygned 9y ago
At first, I was also concerned with the keyboard, coming from a 2013 MacBook Air usually equipped with a (Pok3r) mechanical keyboard. Once I got used to it, though, I have to say it's one of the best keyboards I type on.
post_break 9y ago
Thinkpad retro is coming soon. Modern thinkpad with old school keyboard.
- artursapek 9y ago
  I hope it's so successful that Lenovo stops treating it as a "fun project" and starts offering evolutions of it as part of their main product line.
  - meddlepal 9y ago
    Sadly I don't think it will be. The problem is most businesses will probably view it as a novelty line and stay clear in favor of the mainstream product lines. This will lead to Lenovo claiming it was a failure in the long run because there was low-demand and burying this issue for good.
- czbond 9y ago
  Thank you for mentioning that! I had to go find some more details. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/retro-thinkpad-image-leaked/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/retro-thinkpad-image...
  - wpietri 9y ago
    Oh wow! I thought this project had died; I'm so excited. I type this on a five-year-old Thinkpad. Every year I look at the Lenovo site, see what fresh horrors the keyboard contains, and sigh.
- taude 9y ago
  Looks disappointing to me because no 4:3 screen.
  - insertnickname 9y ago
    Most laptops are terrible. We should celebrate that this one might not have a terrible keyboard.
pyroinferno 9y ago
I got use to it after I owned one. It doesn't feel that bad.
H1Supreme 9y ago
I was astounded at how bad the keyboards are on the new Mac laptops. I thought most of the reviewers were full of it...until I tried one.
- Tepix 9y ago
  I concur. I tried the keyboard on the latest thinner Macbook Pro models and they are just as bad as the Macbook (12"). I suppose I could get used to them... but I don't think I want to. Macbooks have reached a point where they are too thin to be good notebooks.
  - schuke 9y ago
    I actually like the Macbook keys more than the Pro's. The new ones lost the firmness of the Macbook's--more wobbly under light touch, without much more travel than the Macbook's.
philsnow 9y ago
But the keyboard isn't the primary input device on Macs, it's the track pad: point, click, and especially scroll. If we had statistics on what percentages of the time macbook owners are using just the trackpad vs either keyboard or both at the same time, I suspect a large population would primarily use only the trackpad.
- _jal 9y ago
  Perhaps if you are primarily a consumer. Some of us type for a living. I go hours without moving the mouse.
  - philsnow 9y ago
    do some of you realize that 95%+ of people _don't_, and they are the customers that Apple is targeting?
kelchm 9y ago
I completely disagree. I think the current MBP keyboard is one of the most satisfying laptop keyboards I've ever typed on. The minimal travel takes some time to get used to but I love how tactile it is. This is coming from someone that spends most of their time typing on Cherry MX green or clear switches.
- schuke 9y ago
  Agreed. It's the opposite of the fashionable mechanical keys--tactile yet requires minimal muscle contraction. It's almost a breeze to type on. I find my Macbook's keyboard very satisfying to use, with only one caveat: the up/down arrow keys can be indistinguishable to the fingertip. Making them like the F and J keys would be perfect.

ergo14 9y ago

I like the KB on the dell latitude line.

MrMid 9y ago
I don't like these so much. I have an E7240 for a year now, and while it's great compared to most other laptops, I still prefer the keyboard of my ThinkPad X61s. When I tried the X230 keyboard, it also felt somewhat better than that of my Latitude. That said, when I used Lenovo Yoga for a while, I was just surprised how bad a keyboard could be. I love my Latitude. EDIT: and I miss the TrackPoint, although with a touchscreen it doesn't matter so much.
- ergo14 9y ago
  My latitude E5470 has a backlit kb with trackpoint, I had to pay for it though.

mrmondo 9y ago

On my work desktop (iMac 5k) I use a Das ultimate mechanical keyboard, I’ve been a big fan of Das keyboards with Blue or Brown switches for many years, I purchased a MacBook 12” Retina when they came out and it certainly took some adjusting to get used to the new keyboard but - after a week or so I really, truly liked it, I found myself typing very fast will a low error rate, when the new MacBook Pro came out a few months back I noted that they used a new generation of the same low profile keys that the MacBook 12” had, again I really enjoyed it because I was used to new style of key mechanism thanks to having the 12” for some time, I ended up buying a 13” MBP and oh my I’d almost go as far as saying I love the keyboard. Yes it’s very different from both mechanical keyboards such as my Das keyboards and legacy laptop keyboard designs and I think after a short adjustment period many people would likely enjoy the feel of the keys more than legacy / previous designs - it really grows on you.

cordite 9y ago
As someone used to mechanical keyboards, I seem to keep physically straining or even internally bruising my right pinky on the Mac keyboards. I'm not sure what to do apart from not using the laptop keyboards (both 2013 style and 2016 style)
- tertius 9y ago
  Right pinky brigade checking in. Mechanical solved this for me instantly.
  - _jal 9y ago
    Ditto. If you experience this, get a mechanical board immediately.
    - k__ 9y ago
      For me it was the other way around. Avoiding mechanical keyboards all my life and never got one of these typical programmer health issues.
      - _jal 9y ago
        Just like this tiger-repellent rock that has kept me safe from tigers my entire life.
        k__ 9y ago
        Hehe, yes, maybe my genes are superior ;P But seriously, I never understood the craze for these clunky things. Almost all devs I know use them and most of them have issues with their arms/hands.
        _jal 9y ago
        I use them. Cause and effect have a direction: I switched to mech boards because I was having wrist trouble. It made all the difference for me - they're fine now. Other reasons people like them usually are about customizability. If you think of it as being roughly similar to how some people can be about noodling with cars, you won't be too far off-base. - With the right firmware, they are fully customizable - you can remap things how you like, create macros, whatever, and config is stored on the board. - You can customize the switches - there are a bewildering array of switch options. People also spend lots of time customizing switches in various ways to change how they feel. - Layouts - keyboard nerds have produced a huge array of different layouts. - Looks - you can buy your own keycaps. Those, too, come in a wide array of profiles and appearances. Some people make really nice boards out of metal, wood, sometimes odder things (I heard about someone trying to make cases out of Corian at one point). If you like that sort of thing, you can have them covered in blinky LEDs. There's a whole tiny art scene making keycap-sculptures that go for a ton of money, relatively speaking. And that's before you get to the crazy stuff that leads to people paying $1k+ on a keyboard. Really, it is like anything else - people do a lot of things as hobbies that look odd from outside.

robin_reala 9y ago

Counterpoint: I got a new Macbook Pro from my job and I’m really enjoying the new keyboard: very little travel but a satisfying click to every press and minimal actuation pressure.

muninn_ 9y ago
Same. The whole debate is pointless and you can't rest judge a keyboard with a few minutes in the Apple store
jjrrmm 9y ago
Yes, exactly this!
wlesieutre 9y ago
I also really like the new keyboard. I use an older MBP for work and it used to be my favorite key design. Now it feels mushy. For people who like to hit their keys hard, I can see it being a problem. For most though, give it a week and you'll be back up to speed and won't want to trade back.
- always_good 9y ago
  The main downside is that mine got kinda mushy / misfire at the one-year mark. I'm currently living abroad, but ideally I'd be able to bring my Macbook Pro into the Apple store next time I'm in the States and get all the keyboard switches replaced. Is that possible?
jclardy 9y ago
Same here. I use a Whitefox (with blues) at my desk, but I have grown quite accustomed to the 2016 MBP keyboard. For me the key stability + clickiness are what I like about it. Yes the throw is short, but I was never a "slam my fingers down on the keys" kind of typer. I'm actually thinking about switching to a mechanical with a shorter throw for my desk (Not nearly as short as the MBP, but about half of what most mechanical boards are.)
lukeschlather 9y ago

0xJRS 9y ago

I actually didn't like the new mbp keyboard at first but once I got used to it I actually started to really like it - And im usually a mech snob myself.

KozmoNau7 9y ago

The Macbook chiclet keyboards are bad, but the new Thinkpad keyboard are great (at least on the X- and T-series). Yes, I know the layout has changes and seems weird at first, but I honestly think it works great, after having used it for a while. And I have a T420 as my personal laptop, the last T-series with the original 7-row keyboard.

gcb0 9y ago
just avoid anything that costs less than 1200$ at thinkpad. the E series keyboard are even worse than apple's
- basch 9y ago
  i have an E470 sitting next to a X1 Carbon 5th gen, and I can tell you you are very wrong. The plastic is a different texture, but they otherwise feel nearly identical. The only key I can feel a big difference in the tension on, is the spacebar. The layouts are identical. Everyone shits on the E series, but since they got rid of the CD Drive and put the old trackpad back, they have been nice cheap pcs.
  - gcb0 9y ago
    good to know they went back on the crap they were doing with the E series. I badmouth it because when i saw them in person (bought online, returned) they deserved it so badly that i didn't even consider another lenovo afterwards
51Cards 9y ago
Another voice for the higher grade Thinkpad chicklet keyboards. My W530 came with one and as a long long time Thinkpad owner I was wary but I have been hammering on this for a few years now and it really has been great. Just the right amount of key feel for me.
fumar 9y ago
I can't believe all these years of typing on newer Macs (even the new pro), Surfaces, Dells, Gateways, etc. I never owned a ThinkPad until recently. The keyboard on my yoga 370 has unveiled a new world of typing. The TrackPoint is a gamechanger. I just ordered an old X230 and plan to spruce it up and use as my home PC. Might even try to dualboot MacOS.

afro88 9y ago

Define terrible. If terrible means trying something for a few seconds and hating it then sure, that's terrible. But by that definition coffee is terrible. When I first tried coffee I hated it within a few seconds. Of course I love it now and have for 2 decades. I had the same kind of reaction to the new keyboard (albeit nowhere near as strongly). It's great now though. The small travel, the sound of it, it's quite effortless for typing. It's definitely an improvement over the old one, in my experience.

izacus 9y ago
I've used the keyboard for months now and it's still the worst keyboard I've ever used. Am I allowed to call it terrible now? :)
- kevinherron 9y ago
  Anyone is free to call it whatever they want. I've been using my 2016 MBP TB since near its release and it's my favorite laptop keyboard I've ever used.
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    I hope other manufacturers don't follow their lead. Greasy, bacteria covered, minimal travel keyboards are a great way to make people hate typing.
    - pilsetnieks 9y ago
      If your minimal travel keyboard is greasy and bacteria covered, I guarantee you your maximum depth mechanical keyboard is just as greasy and bacteria covered.
      - StudentStuff 9y ago
        Not if you have a slightly textured keyboard and clean it on occasion. Apple's dead flat plastic keys on their laptop and bluetooth keyboards are a perfect growth medium for bacteria, while also accreting oil much more readily.

simonh 9y ago

I've tried it myself and it does feel weird, but I know a couple of people who have those that absolutely swear by them. My wife is a nurse and one of the consultants at a party a few weeks ago was raving about how much he loves his MacBook. Even within the Apple user community there's a bit of a divide. But isn't that a good thing? Why would you expect every single Apple product to suite you personally, to the point where if just one device isn't right for you, you won't even look at any of the others?

dsego 9y ago

For me it is nice to type on, but the keys have already started popping out after less than a year, very flimsy indeed.

cygned 9y ago

At first, I was also concerned with the keyboard, coming from a 2013 MacBook Air usually equipped with a (Pok3r) mechanical keyboard. Once I got used to it, though, I have to say it's one of the best keyboards I type on.

post_break 9y ago

Thinkpad retro is coming soon. Modern thinkpad with old school keyboard.

artursapek 9y ago
I hope it's so successful that Lenovo stops treating it as a "fun project" and starts offering evolutions of it as part of their main product line.
- meddlepal 9y ago
  Sadly I don't think it will be. The problem is most businesses will probably view it as a novelty line and stay clear in favor of the mainstream product lines. This will lead to Lenovo claiming it was a failure in the long run because there was low-demand and burying this issue for good.
czbond 9y ago
Thank you for mentioning that! I had to go find some more details. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/retro-thinkpad-image-leaked/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/retro-thinkpad-image...
- wpietri 9y ago
  Oh wow! I thought this project had died; I'm so excited. I type this on a five-year-old Thinkpad. Every year I look at the Lenovo site, see what fresh horrors the keyboard contains, and sigh.
taude 9y ago
Looks disappointing to me because no 4:3 screen.
- insertnickname 9y ago
  Most laptops are terrible. We should celebrate that this one might not have a terrible keyboard.

pyroinferno 9y ago

I got use to it after I owned one. It doesn't feel that bad.

H1Supreme 9y ago

I was astounded at how bad the keyboards are on the new Mac laptops. I thought most of the reviewers were full of it...until I tried one.

Tepix 9y ago
I concur. I tried the keyboard on the latest thinner Macbook Pro models and they are just as bad as the Macbook (12"). I suppose I could get used to them... but I don't think I want to. Macbooks have reached a point where they are too thin to be good notebooks.
- schuke 9y ago
  I actually like the Macbook keys more than the Pro's. The new ones lost the firmness of the Macbook's--more wobbly under light touch, without much more travel than the Macbook's.

philsnow 9y ago

But the keyboard isn't the primary input device on Macs, it's the track pad: point, click, and especially scroll. If we had statistics on what percentages of the time macbook owners are using just the trackpad vs either keyboard or both at the same time, I suspect a large population would primarily use only the trackpad.

_jal 9y ago
Perhaps if you are primarily a consumer. Some of us type for a living. I go hours without moving the mouse.
- philsnow 9y ago
  do some of you realize that 95%+ of people _don't_, and they are the customers that Apple is targeting?

kelchm 9y ago

I completely disagree. I think the current MBP keyboard is one of the most satisfying laptop keyboards I've ever typed on. The minimal travel takes some time to get used to but I love how tactile it is. This is coming from someone that spends most of their time typing on Cherry MX green or clear switches.

schuke 9y ago
Agreed. It's the opposite of the fashionable mechanical keys--tactile yet requires minimal muscle contraction. It's almost a breeze to type on. I find my Macbook's keyboard very satisfying to use, with only one caveat: the up/down arrow keys can be indistinguishable to the fingertip. Making them like the F and J keys would be perfect.