5 ms·

One example would be game development, where people end up doing object pooling to avoid GC pauses dropping frames.

pron 9y ago
There are better ways to eliminate GC pauses than manual memory management (even ignoring the relatively new "pauseless" GCs). See the new RTSJ (realtime Java) specification here: https://www.aicas.com/cms/en/rtsj https://www.aicas.com/cms/en/rtsj. Not that it's designed for far stricter requirements than games (cases where even microseconds of unexpected latency may result in actual life safety concerns). Manual memory management is a good choice if you have both worst-case latency concerns as well as very restricted RAM and/or severe energy constraints (basically, the kind of applications that Rust was designed to handle).
- kuschku 9y ago
  The RTSJ solution is to simply pre-allocate everything you could ever want and reuse that. That’s horrible to use for game development.
  - merb 9y ago
    I'm not a game developer, so why is that horrible? consider I have an array/map of my game objects and the rest only works with methods, so most stuff does not lie on the heap, well that means basically no strings, since they would add to heap memory aswell, but only using basic datatypes and arrays. why would some kind of that be problematic? I mean graphics programmic is kind of new to me, but considering that you could offload that to a c/c++ engine via jni (that's another horrible thing of some kind), but just the game code itself doesn't seems to be to bad, does it?
    - kuschku 9y ago
      > why would some kind of that be problematic? I mean graphics programmic is kind of new to me, but considering that you could offload that to a c/c++ engine via jni (that's another horrible thing of some kind), but just the game code itself doesn't seems to be to bad, does it? The whole point is not to offload anything. If you need to offload anything, even the render loop, the language has failed.
  - pron 9y ago
    > The RTSJ solution is to simply pre-allocate everything you could ever want and reuse that. That's not the RTSJ solution. RTSJ uses arenas, which are great if you have regular allocation/deallocation cycles, like, say, a frame in a game.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      > That's not the RTSJ solution. RTSJ uses arenas, which are great if you have regular allocation/deallocation cycles, like, say, a frame in a game. So how do I get a user’s Oracle JRE installation to use arenas? The only realistic scenario is to preallocate and reuse.
      - pron 9y ago
        You don't. You use an RTSJ JVM.
        kuschku 9y ago
        That’s not an option, that was the whole point of the discussion.
        pron 9y ago
        If changing the JVM spec is an option, then surely so is using an existing spec. IBM has an RTSJ JVM[1], which, I believe, is based on J9. [1]: https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSSTCZ_3.0.0/com.ibm.wrt.rtlinux.doc.30/homepage/plugin-homepage-rt.html https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSSTCZ_3.0.0/...
        kuschku 9y ago
        Changing the JVM spec has a chance at being applied in future normal JVMs. Using an entirely separate solution has not.
        9y ago
  - imtringued 9y ago
    Isn't that what almost every game does during loading screens?
- jsiepkes 9y ago
  JEP 189: Shenandoah: An Ultra-Low-Pause-Time Garbage Collector (http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/189 http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/189) could help with that.
mstoodle 9y ago
You could also check out Eclipse OpenJ9's -Xgcpolicy:metronome option. It only works on Linux X86-64 at the moment, but it is designed to better regulate GC pauses. If you want to learn more, you can open an issue to ask for more details at https://github.com/eclipse/openj9/issues https://github.com/eclipse/openj9/issues .
rlp 9y ago
Even in game development in C/C++, you wouldn't want to be allocating/deleting heap objects in every frame. You'd probably end up pooling there too, unless you're referring to the problem that the JVM has no value types and forces heap allocation for all objects. This will be fixed in JDK 10 (see Project Valhalla).
int_19h 9y ago
What would you expect to be the behavior of any existing references to an object that was deleted? (Keep in mind that Java is a memory-safe language.)
imtringued 9y ago
That doesn't solve the fundamental problem of stop the world pauses. If you had 10 threads sharing the same gc heap that allocate as much garbage as they want and 1 thread that has it's own heap that doesn't allocate anything only the 10 threads would be stopped by the garbage collector and you would have reached your goal. If those 11 threads would share the same heap and 1 thread still doesn't use the gc because it's using manual memory management then you'd still suffer from stop the world pauses. What you want is isolated heaps like erlang does, not manual memory management. I'm still wondering why we have no other programming languages with multiple heaps. You could probably achieve something similar with D and use of memory mapped files to efficiently share memory without copying bewteen processes. Alternatively you could call into C to spawn OS threads that don't suffer from stop the world pauses. But those two options are a hack. You're not supposed to use D like that. I chose D as an example because it's a programming language with both a garbage collector and manual memory management that still suffers from stop the world pauses.

pron 9y ago

There are better ways to eliminate GC pauses than manual memory management (even ignoring the relatively new "pauseless" GCs). See the new RTSJ (realtime Java) specification here: https://www.aicas.com/cms/en/rtsj https://www.aicas.com/cms/en/rtsj. Not that it's designed for far stricter requirements than games (cases where even microseconds of unexpected latency may result in actual life safety concerns). Manual memory management is a good choice if you have both worst-case latency concerns as well as very restricted RAM and/or severe energy constraints (basically, the kind of applications that Rust was designed to handle).

kuschku 9y ago
The RTSJ solution is to simply pre-allocate everything you could ever want and reuse that. That’s horrible to use for game development.
- merb 9y ago
  I'm not a game developer, so why is that horrible? consider I have an array/map of my game objects and the rest only works with methods, so most stuff does not lie on the heap, well that means basically no strings, since they would add to heap memory aswell, but only using basic datatypes and arrays. why would some kind of that be problematic? I mean graphics programmic is kind of new to me, but considering that you could offload that to a c/c++ engine via jni (that's another horrible thing of some kind), but just the game code itself doesn't seems to be to bad, does it?
  - kuschku 9y ago
    > why would some kind of that be problematic? I mean graphics programmic is kind of new to me, but considering that you could offload that to a c/c++ engine via jni (that's another horrible thing of some kind), but just the game code itself doesn't seems to be to bad, does it? The whole point is not to offload anything. If you need to offload anything, even the render loop, the language has failed.
- pron 9y ago
  > The RTSJ solution is to simply pre-allocate everything you could ever want and reuse that. That's not the RTSJ solution. RTSJ uses arenas, which are great if you have regular allocation/deallocation cycles, like, say, a frame in a game.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    > That's not the RTSJ solution. RTSJ uses arenas, which are great if you have regular allocation/deallocation cycles, like, say, a frame in a game. So how do I get a user’s Oracle JRE installation to use arenas? The only realistic scenario is to preallocate and reuse.
    - pron 9y ago
      You don't. You use an RTSJ JVM.
      - kuschku 9y ago
        That’s not an option, that was the whole point of the discussion.
        pron 9y ago
        If changing the JVM spec is an option, then surely so is using an existing spec. IBM has an RTSJ JVM[1], which, I believe, is based on J9. [1]: https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSSTCZ_3.0.0/com.ibm.wrt.rtlinux.doc.30/homepage/plugin-homepage-rt.html https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSSTCZ_3.0.0/...
        kuschku 9y ago
        Changing the JVM spec has a chance at being applied in future normal JVMs. Using an entirely separate solution has not.
        9y ago
- imtringued 9y ago
  Isn't that what almost every game does during loading screens?
jsiepkes 9y ago
JEP 189: Shenandoah: An Ultra-Low-Pause-Time Garbage Collector (http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/189 http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/189) could help with that.

mstoodle 9y ago

You could also check out Eclipse OpenJ9's -Xgcpolicy:metronome option. It only works on Linux X86-64 at the moment, but it is designed to better regulate GC pauses. If you want to learn more, you can open an issue to ask for more details at https://github.com/eclipse/openj9/issues https://github.com/eclipse/openj9/issues .

rlp 9y ago

Even in game development in C/C++, you wouldn't want to be allocating/deleting heap objects in every frame. You'd probably end up pooling there too, unless you're referring to the problem that the JVM has no value types and forces heap allocation for all objects. This will be fixed in JDK 10 (see Project Valhalla).

int_19h 9y ago

What would you expect to be the behavior of any existing references to an object that was deleted? (Keep in mind that Java is a memory-safe language.)

imtringued 9y ago

That doesn't solve the fundamental problem of stop the world pauses. If you had 10 threads sharing the same gc heap that allocate as much garbage as they want and 1 thread that has it's own heap that doesn't allocate anything only the 10 threads would be stopped by the garbage collector and you would have reached your goal. If those 11 threads would share the same heap and 1 thread still doesn't use the gc because it's using manual memory management then you'd still suffer from stop the world pauses. What you want is isolated heaps like erlang does, not manual memory management. I'm still wondering why we have no other programming languages with multiple heaps. You could probably achieve something similar with D and use of memory mapped files to efficiently share memory without copying bewteen processes. Alternatively you could call into C to spawn OS threads that don't suffer from stop the world pauses. But those two options are a hack. You're not supposed to use D like that. I chose D as an example because it's a programming language with both a garbage collector and manual memory management that still suffers from stop the world pauses.