10 ms·

I've been living this horror for six years. If I could just magically stop using medicine and not being treated like a drug addict for merely taking prescribed

I've been living this horror for six years. If I could just magically stop using medicine and not being treated like a drug addict for merely taking prescribed medicine by all walks of society (from cops, to nurses, to neighbors), don't you think I'd have already fucking taken that choice? The majority of people don't want to be on pills. They want to get better. If I'm in too much pain to physically get out of bed, how am I supposed to exercise? It sounds like this is just an advertisement for CBT, and 90% of it is summed up as "get an anti-depressant" and "go to therapy." Well everyone is already doing that. I mean, are we really going to suggest everyone in the medical industry related to pain management is just a scam? That doctors don't try a mirade of tools to help their patients and instead just throw addictive pills at them? Surely some do. But who says "I want to go to medical school to sell pills" instead of "helping people"? I don't know. I find it hard to analytically process this article since I'm so close to the source. But I literally spend >60% of my days in complete writhing agony. I had to FIGHT to get the medicine I needed and I had to FIGHT to get the back surgeries that took me from almost dying to "surviving." So if the world is really handing out pills and surgeries, it sure as hell wasn't doing it in my area.

ianai 9y ago
As a migraine sufferer I feel the same way. I tell people who don't take my pain seriously to watch me take a round of Botox for them. It's something like 8 syringes in my scalp. I absolutely would not go through that if a single migraine didn't inflict much more pain upon me. I'll never forget having a migraine come back on as I was leaving the ER one night. They had already dosed me up well. All the drugs did though was make me not care that it felt like an ice pick was boring into my head. Still felt the pain. I've lost way too many things to this pain over the years. It's awful.
- manmal 9y ago
  I'm sure you have had your share of well meaning advice. But have you checked out PEMF devices? There is evidence that therapeutic pulsed EM helps reduce migraine pain [1], among a lot of other positive effects. The selfhacked.com guy heavily endorses a device called ICES which costs "only" around $400 (but is of course weaker than the heavy duty devices since it runs on a 9V battery). 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11279973/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11279973/
- nextos 9y ago
  I'm sorry you are going through this. I have had extreme migraines, coupled with ocular migraines where I would start seeing colored artifacts or blurry areas for an hour or two. They have almost disappeared since I switched to sleeping in a really hard Japanese futon and I switched to an active chair at work (search for Peter Opsvik). It turns out my migraines seem to originate from extreme muscular tension in my left neck-arm joint.
- nnfy 9y ago
  I also suffer from migraines, although not nearly as severe as yours. I strongly recommend you look into kratom for pain management. I generally take a small dose of two grams alongside 200mg ibuprofen and a 10 hour headache will usually disappear within 30-60 minutes. I won't promise that you'll get the same results, but if you're desperate, kratom is relatively benign, cheap, and helps for all kinds of pain.
  - ianai 9y ago
    I would but I don't want to run afoul of any legal issues. Plus I'm on stuff that may interfere. My current regiment is working pretty well. My latest abortive measure was to apply infrared heat to my trapezius muscle (all the way up to my forehead), tens to the base of the trapezius and back of my neck, and go into the "crocodile" yoga pose for an hour. (I used a very light pillow to make it more comfortable). It took doing all of that over the course of 60-90 minutes and the migraine subsided.
    - nnfy 9y ago
      Kratom is still legal. However, it does interfere with many drugs because of the enzyme it inhibits.
ransom1538 9y ago
Hey man after 3 years I just finally beat back pain - it is possible. In my case it was physical therapy until i understood the routine to strengthen the core and stretching. I also changed how I work: no sitting, ever. Laying or standing. I lost weight (i am 6'1 got down to 165). I took stretching serious, you should be able to touch your toes. You need to drink milk. For depression find a position to work while you lay down, so you can get lost in work (most don't get backpain while laying down). The data on back surgeries is not good, plain physical therapy does better. If you need something for depression I would look into edibles with lots of cbd - do your best to stay away from opioids. ALSO: Research the anti-inflammatory nabumetone. I don't know why doctors don't bring it up. (not additive, no high)
- yodsanklai 9y ago
  > I also changed how I work: no sitting, ever. Laying or standing Do you work remotely? I assume laying isn't an option in an office. Even standing, it may be frowned upon in more conservative work places.
  - hkmurakami 9y ago
    Depends I guess. I know places (~100 people) where their chief architect sleeps on the floor with his feet sticking out from under his desk in the middle of the day.
- toasterlovin 9y ago
  If you're enthusiastic about milk and believe that strength is the way out of pain, I have the best recommendation for you: Starting Strength.
  - moretai 9y ago
    I'm enthusiastic about milk, but why is it so good for us?
    - tsomctl 9y ago
ryanmarsh 9y ago
I feel you and I went through that horror too. By what I'm about to say please know that I don't mean to diminish the severity of your injuries and pain nor do I mean to suggest any lack of diligence on your part in finding the right treatment or implying that any treatment could work for you. I'm not going to bore you with my story except to say, looking back, I'm amazed I was able to endure such pain for so long. I cry sometimes when I remember it. I too had to fight to get the treatment I needed to "survive". Surviving was still miserable and I was always at the mercy of my pills and my health care providers. Thank god I make good money and managed to remain employed. I don't know how the average person could have afforded to pay for everything modern medicine has to offer like I did. Scans, injections, surgery, pills, PT... May I suggest that an expert (I mean a top doc) in traditional Chinese medicine can take you from surviving to truly living. There are some things Western medicine truly excels at and for that I am grateful. However it does have blind spots. Some of those blind spots are perfect for eastern medicine. I thought it was vodoo bullshit but I found a few providers that legitimately changed my life. Plenty eastern medicine docs were total quacks. You get that in the west because it's fairly unregulated. I was lucky to stumble upon some of the best, people who even publish.
- bsenftner 9y ago
  I can second this opinion. I suffered 3 crushed vertebra at age 17, and was in a lot of pain for 10 years before I started seeing a unique doctor: he'd been a USA MD for 20 years when his wife died of cancer. He lost faith in western medicine from the experience of guiding his wife through her cancer treatments. So he went to China for 20 years, and became a Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor there, practicing in China for 14 years before returning to the states and opening a hybrid western / eastern medical clinic. This guy was the most enlightening individual I've ever met, he was truly walking the path of a master of his domain. I don't mean arrogance, speaking with him was a never ending joy of discovery and learning about myself and my systems, how they integrate and support one another. Needless to say, he healed my pain, and more. Sadly, he retired about 7 years after I met him. I've not found anyone like him since, and I've tried.
  - ryanmarsh 9y ago
patrickdavey 9y ago
I had somewhat bad back pain for a long while (squash injury). The thing that made the most difference was a core strengthening class I did (basically Pilates and specific stretches).
- maccard 9y ago
  Did you see a GP or a physiotherapist?
  - patrickdavey 9y ago
    I had mostly been to physio's, but, I had had an MRI too..just to make sure.
maxcan 9y ago
Serious question - have you ever done any weightlifting, specifically whole body functional movements like deadlifts, to address your back pain? http://spartascience.com/blog-post/strength/deadlifts-can-cure-back-pain-not-cause-it/ http://spartascience.com/blog-post/strength/deadlifts-can-cu... Note: if you haven't, even though I strongly and emphatically recommend it, its almost certainly best to start with a coach who can teach proper movement mechanics.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- DanBC 9y ago
  Exercise (carefully monitored by health care professionals) will work for most people. It doesn't work for all people. I get the impression that katastic has made genuine effort to engage in a wide range of treatment, and is still not getting much if any pain relief. People find it weird that we still don't have good treatment options for some types of pain, but that's the reality. Some people just have to live their lives in near constant pain. Here's the Faculty of Pain Management with some information about pain: https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware/condition-patient-context/about-pain https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-awar... And about the challenges of treating long term pain: https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware/condition-patient-context/stepped-approach-to-pain-prescribing https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-awar...
- neogodless 9y ago
  Oh man, I want to read this article. Sadly, it'll have to wait. Be I'm on my phone, where I don't know how to turn off "light gray text on white background" style! More on topic, I'm an anecdote of someone who squats and deadlifts to prevent pain in my back and hips. Stopping for a couple weeks usually allows the pain to return.
  - maxcan 9y ago
    To be honest, its not a great article. I'll try to find a better one.
wyatte 9y ago
> The majority of people don't want to be on pills. Well I'm sure that even the addicts don't "want" to be on pills. The real question is how many people actually are unnecessarily addicted. Do you believe that most are not? If so how would you substantiate that? If you want I can start listing out anecdotal information that would support the opposite of what you are saying, but that would get us nowhere right?
Mz 9y ago
I've been living this horror for six years. If I'm in too much pain to physically get out of bed, how am I supposed to exercise? I would email you, but you have no contact info. I imagine I will regret posting this. I usually do. Some broken part of my brain has yet to master hearing of someone else's suffering and going "Welp, not my problem!" It is still on my To Do list. Some general thoughts, that may or may not be useful to you: One of the benefits of exercise is that it moves lymph. This is how the body cleans your tissues. It is a necessary function for doing repair work. Think of how old buildings get rehabbed: The first step is to rent a giant dumpster and start doing demolition work and hauling out the trash. Any muscle action at all will help move lymph. If you just can't do anything, warm salt water baths and massage can help your body take out the trash. The other thing is you probably are dehydrated and suffering various nutrient shortfalls. The body needs resources to rebuild. After major surgery, you need major resources. Doctors never seem to prescribe higher nutrition during recovery. Additionally, medications routinely interfere with the absorption of certain nutrients or cause wasting of those nutrients. You should google this for every medication you take and up your intake of nutrients your drugs are known to deplete. Spine surgery involves both bones and nerves. Nerves need extra B vitamins and specific fats to help heal. Bones need extra calcium, magnesium, vitamin D, vitamin K and B vitamins to help heal. Bone marrow needs healthy fats. Some best practices: Keep a food journal. Read up on symptoms of specific nutrient deficiencies. Taking supplements is easier at first than making dietary changes because you can do a better job of isolating specific variables because you can just add X nutrient instead of swapping one food for another. Do one new thing every week or two so you can watch how it plays out. Sugar, mint and non drug antiinflammatories (like cinnamon and hot peppers) can help make pain more bearable. Source: 16+ years of firsthand experience. (I used to be bedridden, and I spent 3.5 years in please-kill-me-now pain. I got myself better after doctors basically wrote me off.)
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Any references on the lymph mobilisation claim?
  - Mz 9y ago
    The lymph is then moved along the lymphatic vessel network by either intrinsic contractions of the lymphatic passages or by extrinsic compression of the lymphatic vessels via external tissue forces (e.g., the contractions of skeletal muscles) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system It is surprisingly hard to find a figure for the amount of increase or a study. I say that because I know I have seen this info before and without digging for it. I have no idea why I recall it as easy to find in the past when it seems so hard to find now. But I did find this study: Exercise increased the clearance rate three- to sixfold http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7793.1997.233bf.x/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7793.1997.... Potentially also of interest: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26530269 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26530269 http://gizmodo.com/why-standing-in-one-place-makes-your-legs-more-sore-tha-1733521024 http://gizmodo.com/why-standing-in-one-place-makes-your-legs... It is trivially easy to search for "exercise moves lymph" and get a bunch of stuff, but probably not the kind of stuff people on HN want to see.

ianai 9y ago

As a migraine sufferer I feel the same way. I tell people who don't take my pain seriously to watch me take a round of Botox for them. It's something like 8 syringes in my scalp. I absolutely would not go through that if a single migraine didn't inflict much more pain upon me. I'll never forget having a migraine come back on as I was leaving the ER one night. They had already dosed me up well. All the drugs did though was make me not care that it felt like an ice pick was boring into my head. Still felt the pain. I've lost way too many things to this pain over the years. It's awful.

manmal 9y ago
I'm sure you have had your share of well meaning advice. But have you checked out PEMF devices? There is evidence that therapeutic pulsed EM helps reduce migraine pain [1], among a lot of other positive effects. The selfhacked.com guy heavily endorses a device called ICES which costs "only" around $400 (but is of course weaker than the heavy duty devices since it runs on a 9V battery). 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11279973/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11279973/
nextos 9y ago
I'm sorry you are going through this. I have had extreme migraines, coupled with ocular migraines where I would start seeing colored artifacts or blurry areas for an hour or two. They have almost disappeared since I switched to sleeping in a really hard Japanese futon and I switched to an active chair at work (search for Peter Opsvik). It turns out my migraines seem to originate from extreme muscular tension in my left neck-arm joint.
nnfy 9y ago
I also suffer from migraines, although not nearly as severe as yours. I strongly recommend you look into kratom for pain management. I generally take a small dose of two grams alongside 200mg ibuprofen and a 10 hour headache will usually disappear within 30-60 minutes. I won't promise that you'll get the same results, but if you're desperate, kratom is relatively benign, cheap, and helps for all kinds of pain.
- ianai 9y ago
  I would but I don't want to run afoul of any legal issues. Plus I'm on stuff that may interfere. My current regiment is working pretty well. My latest abortive measure was to apply infrared heat to my trapezius muscle (all the way up to my forehead), tens to the base of the trapezius and back of my neck, and go into the "crocodile" yoga pose for an hour. (I used a very light pillow to make it more comfortable). It took doing all of that over the course of 60-90 minutes and the migraine subsided.
  - nnfy 9y ago
    Kratom is still legal. However, it does interfere with many drugs because of the enzyme it inhibits.

ransom1538 9y ago

Hey man after 3 years I just finally beat back pain - it is possible. In my case it was physical therapy until i understood the routine to strengthen the core and stretching. I also changed how I work: no sitting, ever. Laying or standing. I lost weight (i am 6'1 got down to 165). I took stretching serious, you should be able to touch your toes. You need to drink milk. For depression find a position to work while you lay down, so you can get lost in work (most don't get backpain while laying down). The data on back surgeries is not good, plain physical therapy does better. If you need something for depression I would look into edibles with lots of cbd - do your best to stay away from opioids. ALSO: Research the anti-inflammatory nabumetone. I don't know why doctors don't bring it up. (not additive, no high)

yodsanklai 9y ago
> I also changed how I work: no sitting, ever. Laying or standing Do you work remotely? I assume laying isn't an option in an office. Even standing, it may be frowned upon in more conservative work places.
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  Depends I guess. I know places (~100 people) where their chief architect sleeps on the floor with his feet sticking out from under his desk in the middle of the day.
toasterlovin 9y ago
If you're enthusiastic about milk and believe that strength is the way out of pain, I have the best recommendation for you: Starting Strength.
- moretai 9y ago
  I'm enthusiastic about milk, but why is it so good for us?
  - tsomctl 9y ago

ryanmarsh 9y ago

I feel you and I went through that horror too. By what I'm about to say please know that I don't mean to diminish the severity of your injuries and pain nor do I mean to suggest any lack of diligence on your part in finding the right treatment or implying that any treatment could work for you. I'm not going to bore you with my story except to say, looking back, I'm amazed I was able to endure such pain for so long. I cry sometimes when I remember it. I too had to fight to get the treatment I needed to "survive". Surviving was still miserable and I was always at the mercy of my pills and my health care providers. Thank god I make good money and managed to remain employed. I don't know how the average person could have afforded to pay for everything modern medicine has to offer like I did. Scans, injections, surgery, pills, PT... May I suggest that an expert (I mean a top doc) in traditional Chinese medicine can take you from surviving to truly living. There are some things Western medicine truly excels at and for that I am grateful. However it does have blind spots. Some of those blind spots are perfect for eastern medicine. I thought it was vodoo bullshit but I found a few providers that legitimately changed my life. Plenty eastern medicine docs were total quacks. You get that in the west because it's fairly unregulated. I was lucky to stumble upon some of the best, people who even publish.

bsenftner 9y ago
I can second this opinion. I suffered 3 crushed vertebra at age 17, and was in a lot of pain for 10 years before I started seeing a unique doctor: he'd been a USA MD for 20 years when his wife died of cancer. He lost faith in western medicine from the experience of guiding his wife through her cancer treatments. So he went to China for 20 years, and became a Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor there, practicing in China for 14 years before returning to the states and opening a hybrid western / eastern medical clinic. This guy was the most enlightening individual I've ever met, he was truly walking the path of a master of his domain. I don't mean arrogance, speaking with him was a never ending joy of discovery and learning about myself and my systems, how they integrate and support one another. Needless to say, he healed my pain, and more. Sadly, he retired about 7 years after I met him. I've not found anyone like him since, and I've tried.
- ryanmarsh 9y ago

patrickdavey 9y ago

I had somewhat bad back pain for a long while (squash injury). The thing that made the most difference was a core strengthening class I did (basically Pilates and specific stretches).

maccard 9y ago
Did you see a GP or a physiotherapist?
- patrickdavey 9y ago
  I had mostly been to physio's, but, I had had an MRI too..just to make sure.

maxcan 9y ago

Serious question - have you ever done any weightlifting, specifically whole body functional movements like deadlifts, to address your back pain? http://spartascience.com/blog-post/strength/deadlifts-can-cure-back-pain-not-cause-it/ http://spartascience.com/blog-post/strength/deadlifts-can-cu... Note: if you haven't, even though I strongly and emphatically recommend it, its almost certainly best to start with a coach who can teach proper movement mechanics.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
DanBC 9y ago
Exercise (carefully monitored by health care professionals) will work for most people. It doesn't work for all people. I get the impression that katastic has made genuine effort to engage in a wide range of treatment, and is still not getting much if any pain relief. People find it weird that we still don't have good treatment options for some types of pain, but that's the reality. Some people just have to live their lives in near constant pain. Here's the Faculty of Pain Management with some information about pain: https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware/condition-patient-context/about-pain https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-awar... And about the challenges of treating long term pain: https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware/condition-patient-context/stepped-approach-to-pain-prescribing https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-awar...
neogodless 9y ago
Oh man, I want to read this article. Sadly, it'll have to wait. Be I'm on my phone, where I don't know how to turn off "light gray text on white background" style! More on topic, I'm an anecdote of someone who squats and deadlifts to prevent pain in my back and hips. Stopping for a couple weeks usually allows the pain to return.
- maxcan 9y ago
  To be honest, its not a great article. I'll try to find a better one.

wyatte 9y ago

> The majority of people don't want to be on pills. Well I'm sure that even the addicts don't "want" to be on pills. The real question is how many people actually are unnecessarily addicted. Do you believe that most are not? If so how would you substantiate that? If you want I can start listing out anecdotal information that would support the opposite of what you are saying, but that would get us nowhere right?

Mz 9y ago

I've been living this horror for six years. If I'm in too much pain to physically get out of bed, how am I supposed to exercise? I would email you, but you have no contact info. I imagine I will regret posting this. I usually do. Some broken part of my brain has yet to master hearing of someone else's suffering and going "Welp, not my problem!" It is still on my To Do list. Some general thoughts, that may or may not be useful to you: One of the benefits of exercise is that it moves lymph. This is how the body cleans your tissues. It is a necessary function for doing repair work. Think of how old buildings get rehabbed: The first step is to rent a giant dumpster and start doing demolition work and hauling out the trash. Any muscle action at all will help move lymph. If you just can't do anything, warm salt water baths and massage can help your body take out the trash. The other thing is you probably are dehydrated and suffering various nutrient shortfalls. The body needs resources to rebuild. After major surgery, you need major resources. Doctors never seem to prescribe higher nutrition during recovery. Additionally, medications routinely interfere with the absorption of certain nutrients or cause wasting of those nutrients. You should google this for every medication you take and up your intake of nutrients your drugs are known to deplete. Spine surgery involves both bones and nerves. Nerves need extra B vitamins and specific fats to help heal. Bones need extra calcium, magnesium, vitamin D, vitamin K and B vitamins to help heal. Bone marrow needs healthy fats. Some best practices: Keep a food journal. Read up on symptoms of specific nutrient deficiencies. Taking supplements is easier at first than making dietary changes because you can do a better job of isolating specific variables because you can just add X nutrient instead of swapping one food for another. Do one new thing every week or two so you can watch how it plays out. Sugar, mint and non drug antiinflammatories (like cinnamon and hot peppers) can help make pain more bearable. Source: 16+ years of firsthand experience. (I used to be bedridden, and I spent 3.5 years in please-kill-me-now pain. I got myself better after doctors basically wrote me off.)

dredmorbius 9y ago
Any references on the lymph mobilisation claim?
- Mz 9y ago
  The lymph is then moved along the lymphatic vessel network by either intrinsic contractions of the lymphatic passages or by extrinsic compression of the lymphatic vessels via external tissue forces (e.g., the contractions of skeletal muscles) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system It is surprisingly hard to find a figure for the amount of increase or a study. I say that because I know I have seen this info before and without digging for it. I have no idea why I recall it as easy to find in the past when it seems so hard to find now. But I did find this study: Exercise increased the clearance rate three- to sixfold http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7793.1997.233bf.x/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7793.1997.... Potentially also of interest: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26530269 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26530269 http://gizmodo.com/why-standing-in-one-place-makes-your-legs-more-sore-tha-1733521024 http://gizmodo.com/why-standing-in-one-place-makes-your-legs... It is trivially easy to search for "exercise moves lymph" and get a bunch of stuff, but probably not the kind of stuff people on HN want to see.