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I'm not sure you fully understand my post. Again, I'm totally willing to go along with Apple's story for a 100% in the way it works. But they're pretty clear in

by DCKing 9y ago

I'm not sure you fully understand my post. Again, I'm totally willing to go along with Apple's story for a 100% in the way it works. But they're pretty clear in their presentation and marketing that you have to 1) look at your phone and 2) slide to unlock it with your finger. But this is much slower and are far less flexible than picking your phone out of your pocket, or from anywhere else, with your finger on the sensor. And nobody is mentioning that this is a downgrade. You see, FaceID is not 100% new. Face unlock existed on the Galaxy Nexus. It also existed in much improved form on the Lumia 950 and Galaxy Note 7. I will 100% grant you that FaceID will be far more accurate still than these implementations. But accuracy is not the issue here: all these methods imply a two step face unlocking ritual, which again is a downgrade over no ritual with a fingerprint scanner. In the end it seems pretty clear to me that face unlock - in any form - will be far less seamless than finger unlock. It makes your phone slightly less easy to use. Yet Apple seems to be successfully arguing that it's an upgrade or at least an equivalent. But it just can't be, no matter how good their implementation is. That's what I don't get.

threeseed 9y ago
1. You've never used the device so making statements like "this is much slower" is pointless conjecture. 2. FaceID is completely different to the Nexus which is based solely on 2D image recognition and is easily able to be forged and doesn't work in low light conditions. 3. From what Craig said in the Daring Fireball interview it will actually be much faster than TouchID since the authentication apparently happens in parallel to the unlock operation.
- DCKing 9y ago
  I'm not sure why I get this response. You seem to imply I have issue with the quality of Apple's next gen implementation, which I have twice explained I don't. Or you imply that I can't have an opinion on the concept of and hassle involved with face unlocking in general, which (as I also already explained) has been around for years and Apple clearly has not made any conceptual changes to. Let me clarify for the third time. My opinion is the following: no face unlock mechanism can be as good as a fingerprint unlock for the flexibility and speed of use as explained above. FaceID will likely be far and away the best face unlock method we've ever seen but it's still a face unlock method and therefore slower and more restrictive than a fingerprint unlock. What I don't get is that nobody else is talking about it, because Apple has successfully spun the discussion to be about the quality of FaceID as opposed to the (lack of) merits for face unlocking on smartphones. I'd actually be excited to have face unlock on laptops and PCs (actually that exists already as Windows Hello, but dedicated hardware would be nice). But on phones I consider it to be inferior to fingerprints conceptually.
  - nicky0 9y ago
    Seems you have a failure of imagination. I'll try: When did you last unlock your phone without subsequently looking at it? Seems to me FaceID removes the need to first unlock, then use phone. New way is: just use phone. So I expect FaceID to be faster to use.
    - quicklime 9y ago
      Face ID requires looking at the phone, and then swiping up. The swipe is what takes the extra time. It means that your phone is not ready to use by the time you look at it. Touch ID lets you do the touch before you look at the phone. The phone unlocks while you take it out of your pocket, so by the time you look at it, it's already unlocked.
      - Bahamut 9y ago
        You have to fumble about for the home button and do an extra click for Touch ID - it's not much different, except it requires less precision/friction on the part of the user for Face ID presumably. Face ID should also significantly improve the UX around all interactions that used Touch ID prior (Apple Pay, authentication for third party apps, etc.).
      - nicky0 9y ago
        This whole conversation is stupid since none of use have even tried the thing.
    - DCKing 9y ago
      > When did you last unlock your phone without subsequently looking at it? I unlock my phone and then not look at it when making phone payments (Apple Pay will definitely take a step back with this). I also switch between maps and driving apps in the car while keeping my eyes on the road. I often peek at something on my screen well outside of the FOV of any front camera. My use of my unlocked phone is not at all limited to things I need to take my face's positioning in account for. I don't particularly appreciate being accused of a failure of imagination and then having to respond to an arbitrary limited assumption of my smartphone use. It's not my imagination that's the problem here. But the point is moot. My entire issue with it that I don't want to wait to initiate unlocking once it's in front of my face. Even if FaceID is instant, and I would accept that all my use is in the FOV of the front camera, Apple still requires me to slide to unlock the device.
charsifood 9y ago
He's primarily asking how FaceID is less secure - a point you bought up multiple times in your original post and provided no reasoning for.
- DCKing 9y ago
  No, I brought it up once in my original post as minor compromise in security. As other have pointed out, it might be less secure as you could be more easily be manipulated to unlock your device by accident. It's a minor thing.
MattRix 9y ago
Wait until it's been out in the wild for a while. I've heard that Apple employees say going back to an old device after using one with Face ID feels weird... because Face ID is just so seamless, you never have to think about it, it basically just feels like your phone is always unlocked.
MBCook 9y ago
But it’s the same exact ritual as TouchID. Both unlock your phone as soon as you complete the necessary action (placing your finger on the center, showing the phone your face). That doesn’t dismiss the lock screen, to do that you either have to press the home button or swipe up. There is no new third step.

by DCKing 9y ago

threeseed 9y ago

1. You've never used the device so making statements like "this is much slower" is pointless conjecture. 2. FaceID is completely different to the Nexus which is based solely on 2D image recognition and is easily able to be forged and doesn't work in low light conditions. 3. From what Craig said in the Daring Fireball interview it will actually be much faster than TouchID since the authentication apparently happens in parallel to the unlock operation.

DCKing 9y ago
I'm not sure why I get this response. You seem to imply I have issue with the quality of Apple's next gen implementation, which I have twice explained I don't. Or you imply that I can't have an opinion on the concept of and hassle involved with face unlocking in general, which (as I also already explained) has been around for years and Apple clearly has not made any conceptual changes to. Let me clarify for the third time. My opinion is the following: no face unlock mechanism can be as good as a fingerprint unlock for the flexibility and speed of use as explained above. FaceID will likely be far and away the best face unlock method we've ever seen but it's still a face unlock method and therefore slower and more restrictive than a fingerprint unlock. What I don't get is that nobody else is talking about it, because Apple has successfully spun the discussion to be about the quality of FaceID as opposed to the (lack of) merits for face unlocking on smartphones. I'd actually be excited to have face unlock on laptops and PCs (actually that exists already as Windows Hello, but dedicated hardware would be nice). But on phones I consider it to be inferior to fingerprints conceptually.
- nicky0 9y ago
  Seems you have a failure of imagination. I'll try: When did you last unlock your phone without subsequently looking at it? Seems to me FaceID removes the need to first unlock, then use phone. New way is: just use phone. So I expect FaceID to be faster to use.
  - quicklime 9y ago
    Face ID requires looking at the phone, and then swiping up. The swipe is what takes the extra time. It means that your phone is not ready to use by the time you look at it. Touch ID lets you do the touch before you look at the phone. The phone unlocks while you take it out of your pocket, so by the time you look at it, it's already unlocked.
    - Bahamut 9y ago
      You have to fumble about for the home button and do an extra click for Touch ID - it's not much different, except it requires less precision/friction on the part of the user for Face ID presumably. Face ID should also significantly improve the UX around all interactions that used Touch ID prior (Apple Pay, authentication for third party apps, etc.).
    - nicky0 9y ago
      This whole conversation is stupid since none of use have even tried the thing.
  - DCKing 9y ago
    > When did you last unlock your phone without subsequently looking at it? I unlock my phone and then not look at it when making phone payments (Apple Pay will definitely take a step back with this). I also switch between maps and driving apps in the car while keeping my eyes on the road. I often peek at something on my screen well outside of the FOV of any front camera. My use of my unlocked phone is not at all limited to things I need to take my face's positioning in account for. I don't particularly appreciate being accused of a failure of imagination and then having to respond to an arbitrary limited assumption of my smartphone use. It's not my imagination that's the problem here. But the point is moot. My entire issue with it that I don't want to wait to initiate unlocking once it's in front of my face. Even if FaceID is instant, and I would accept that all my use is in the FOV of the front camera, Apple still requires me to slide to unlock the device.

charsifood 9y ago

He's primarily asking how FaceID is less secure - a point you bought up multiple times in your original post and provided no reasoning for.

DCKing 9y ago
No, I brought it up once in my original post as minor compromise in security. As other have pointed out, it might be less secure as you could be more easily be manipulated to unlock your device by accident. It's a minor thing.

MattRix 9y ago

Wait until it's been out in the wild for a while. I've heard that Apple employees say going back to an old device after using one with Face ID feels weird... because Face ID is just so seamless, you never have to think about it, it basically just feels like your phone is always unlocked.

MBCook 9y ago

But it’s the same exact ritual as TouchID. Both unlock your phone as soon as you complete the necessary action (placing your finger on the center, showing the phone your face). That doesn’t dismiss the lock screen, to do that you either have to press the home button or swipe up. There is no new third step.