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Parents Who Pay to Be Watched
- libeclipse 9y agoAm I the only one getting serious Black Mirror vibes?
- CPLX 9y agoIndeed. The part where they describe a kid sitting there while a remote camera barked orders at him was especially cringe-worthy.
- avaer 9y agoI prefer to think of Black Mirror as having serious reality vibes.
- throwanem 9y agoIt is perfectly named.
- alexbeloi 9y agoI've liked that interpretation of the title better than the one from creator >The "black mirror" of the title is the one you'll find on every wall, on every desk, in the palm of every hand: the cold, shiny screen of a TV, a monitor, a smartphone. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/dec/01/charlie-brooker-dark-side-gadget-addiction-black-mirror https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/dec/01/charlie-b...
- throwanem 9y agoJesus Christ. The sort of personality that constructs a domestic regime like this is the sort under whose power I lived my late childhood and much of my adolescence. To say the least, it was not a pleasant experience, nor was it an effective means of raising a child - looking objectively back at the period in question, my behavior grew markedly worse over time, from your typical sort of bratty indiscipline at the start, to the kind of outright antisociality that's genuinely dangerous to, and in, a teenager - the vast majority of which was in reaction to the absurdly strict and ever stricter regime that was enforced at home. Of course, that's also a handily self-fulfilling prophecy, in that every such reaction, to the sort of deeply malfunctioning person who finds this approach at all sensible, justifies cranking the thumbscrews that much tighter, until eventually something explodes. Of course, the person I describe, in the time of my youth, didn't have the kind of technological or professional support detailed in the article; the best she could do was leverage her own training in (also mostly behavioral) psychology, and take doors off hinges and the like - there were no consumer networked cameras, then, but if there had been I'd have lived daily under their lidless eyes. Certainly I'd have been followed around by a squad of commissars had it been an option, as here - luckily for me, it wasn't, so I could find at least a few hours most days of escape, if not freedom, from an otherwise constantly oppressive regime. Fortunately, modern technology has made it possible to eliminate such undesirable loopholes which so impair the ability to enforce structure and discipline! My own experience was ultimately survivable, or at least I certainly did survive it - I hope I don't seem too lacking in humility to say that I suspect not every other person might have managed as well. But it did not make me a better person. Quite the converse; while, as it will, the increasing distance of time has healed many wounds, I'd be lying to say I don't still struggle with the lingering effects of the things that were done to me, decades ago though they ended. God alone knows what kids raised in a modern version of such a regime will suffer, although I see no reason to doubt that, given the near-perfect panopticon modern technology makes possible, it will be much worse by comparison. Some of them aren't going to make it. When they decide that the best use, of what precious few moments they can manage to snatch from the would-be omniscient minders, is to open a vein or swallow a bottle of pills, no doubt their parents will tear their hair and howl of how incomprehensible it is, because weren't they doing the best that they could? Weren't they hiring the best professionals with the most comprehensive program? What could they possibly have done differently? And as for the people who inflict this quiet, grinding sort of horror...well. Imprecations really fail one, don't they? I'm sure most, maybe all, of these people have all the good intentions in the world. They want to help everybody! What a shame that this is what it's led them to.
- QAPereo 9y agoTechnology empowers us all, but how many people would you trust with even the power they already have? You've highlighted that problem with your own pretty harrowing ordeal. All across the board, from the means to spy, to the means to inflict pain without having to leave marks... tech is helping us all do MORE.
- throwanem 9y agoI can't really blame technology per se for this. It expands the amplitude of which we're capable, but the sign of the signal is still, each and all, up to us.
- jamesmishra 9y agoThis is the most interesting article I've read on Hacker News in a long time. These Cognition Builders people are following every single rule of technology startups: - Charge more / move upmarket - Target a niche and own it. Don't do spray'n'pray marketing, but make sure your niche can find you. - Do things that don't scale (initially) - Use technology to your advantage, but not as a gimmick. Given how much they charge, I imagine they are profitable. And given how their customers' houses are covered with cameras and microphones, I imagine they are collecting some amazing datasets about human nature. The folks at Cognition Builders are absolute geniuses, and I wish I was able to come up with a business like that.
- QAPereo 9y ago“My experience is the self-consciousness goes away very quickly,” she said. “People live their lives and forget we’re there.” That is probably the core lesson, the rest was all known. That line however, tells you everything that you need to know about the future of privacy.
- throwanem 9y agoYou left out a rule: - Ignore the human cost
- zelos 9y agoYou forgot: - Skirt round or ignore existing regulations and call it disruption. And, without oversights in place to keep the company accountable, like state requirements for clinical supervision...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- twiss 9y agoThat's cruel. His only problem with being back in America was: “There, I could always take a walk to my friends’ houses. Here we have to drive. The only really social time is at school or on my phone or video games or Xbox. That’s where I talk to my friends the most. Back there, I could see them every day, but here I can’t.” And instead of trying to solve that problem (make a concerted effort to drive him to his friends every day, or give him a bike, or give him money for a taxi, or…) they punished him with Pavlov training.
- mfoy_ 9y agoAnd the initial, tone-deaf response of parading him around in front of therapist's for "internet addiction". Seriously?
- throwanem 9y agoNot a rare kind of doctor shopping among those who can afford it. But that's the whole problem, isn't it? The parents enjoy a lifestyle and a tax bracket where inconvenience is impermissible and unacceptable. The child has become inconvenient. ETA: I had to stop reading before I finished the article, because it put me back in a place where I do not want to be. Still sort of there at the moment, but so it goes; I'm sure I'll be fine again tomorrow. Anyway, looking again just now to see how the author chose to conclude, I happened across this, a few paragraphs from the end, which I excerpt here without further comment: At their son’s moment of crisis, why not start there, changing the environment rather than the kid? She and Jason exchanged a look. “That’s just not possible,” Elizabeth said.
- FussyZeus 9y ago> But that's the whole problem, isn't it? The parents enjoy a lifestyle and a tax bracket where inconvenience is impermissible and unacceptable. The child has become inconvenient. You know the sick part of this is that the wife and I discussed kids and we both decided that we were too involved with ourselves and our hobbies to properly devote time to a child. Yeah, we like our video games and our space, and we enjoy our time together so a kid really doesn't work well for us. You can call it superficial if you want, I wouldn't really disagree. To say that these people just went and had kids, likely because that's what they were told by society what to do, means that these kids have now been sentenced to a life where they are an inconvenience and a burden, and there is no way they're not aware of this, which to me is way more fucking sick than not having kids because you don't want to share your XBox.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoThis is horrifying. This constitutes psychological abuse of the child and should be illegal. I went through similar shit growing up and I still feel the ramifications today.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- m3rc 9y agointercom noise that's a strike, Sir_Cmpwn. Stay in line.
- bayonetz 9y agoCognition Builders' particular practices seem pretty obnoxious but behavioral analysis conditioning can be very useful in general. For example, I've used profanity my who life. My wife didn't and it genuinely offended her more genteel sensibilities. I decided I wanted to make the change but I utterly failed for like two years of using just hope and willpower. Then we instituted a "swear jar" whose proceeds would be used to fund something distasteful to me like the Trump campaign. Within a couple months I was rid of the profanity. It's been like two years since we retired the jar and I haven't reverted. It was literally a life changing intervention. When I started reading that article I was excited because I thought it was going to describe some cool, inspiring uses of the techniques to the much serious problems around dysfunctional family dynamics. Unfortunately Cognition Builders seem laughably Black-Mirror-esque. Another thing my wife and have wished for was a recording of our conversations for when we disagree about what was actually said in past conversations. I wonder if Cognition Builders could have a more passive offering where you could ask on demand things like "what did we agree to last week when we were talking about so and so..." It would be more like a life logging perfect AI for you to use as you see fit for things like reflection or accountability.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago> I wonder if Cognition Builders could have a more passive offering where you could ask on demand things like "what did we agree to last week when we were talking about so and so..." It would be more like a life logging perfect AI for you to use as you see fit for things like reflection or accountability. That's literally straight out of Black Mirror ;) ("The Entire History of You" - S01E03). That said, if we're to have this, I'd say this is a perfect example of something that should be a product, and not a service. I might want such cameras, but I would never want them operated by a third party.
- Spooky23 9y agoI didn't realize how screwed up things have become with parenting until my son went into school recently. It's a different universe from the 80s and 90s. I recently almost lost my drink when I had to sit through some power-mom yak on about her 12 yo daughter's crappy behavior and inability to focus -- she now has an ADHD diagnosis and medication. Her daughter is a successful competitive swimmer who trains 4 days a week, is a talented musician in two different regional orchestras, has a B+ average and runs cross country. People are nuts. That kid needs sleep, not amphetamine derivatives. There are many like her. My son has kindergarten classmates in 3-5 structured activities.
- ryandrake 9y agoI have a kid that age too (just entering K) and I concur. It's shocking and disgusting. In 20 years, those nutter parents will brag on Facebook: "Well, my kid is suicidal but at least he went to Stanford!" So sad. Kids need exploration and playtime, not medication and Structured Enrichment Activities™.
- danans 9y agoBased on conversations with people who work in mental health professions in SV, we're already there with the kids who have been pushed close to the edge. The news only reports on these situations when it is too late, but there are plenty of kids in bad straits short of that.
- GuiA 9y agoIndeed. See for instance https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/12/the-silicon-valley-suicides/413140/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/12/the-sil...
- fhood 9y agoI blame facebook, or at least the idea of facebook. Having kids has always been surprisingly competitive, and social media exacerbates the problem.
- ryandrake 9y agoWhen I was a kid, when you behaved like that, you got a beating or you got confined to your room (without entertainment/X-box/etc.) for a few days, and it was over. You didn't pay tens of thousands for surveillance. Good for this company though. They identified a niche group with more money than brains, and are exploiting it. From life coaches and French Horn lessons to artisanal coffee and mobile pet washing, finding ways to separate upper-middle class nitwits from their large disposable income is a tried and true formula. Also, this article is an obvious and unconcealed submarine advertisement for Cognition Builders, whose name is mentioned over 30 times.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- eropple 9y ago> Good for this company though. They identified a niche group with more money than brains, and are exploiting it. This is a bizarre stance even on HN. They're aiding and abetting psychological abuse of children.
- ghostbrainalpha 9y agoWe are pro business here, but I took that comment as sarcasm.
- ryandrake 9y agoDon't get me wrong--I feel for the kid(s) who are ultimately the victims of their parents' narcissism and callousness. But is this any worse than drugging their kid because he won't sit still and focus, or abdicating their parental duties to a full-time nanny (both of which are, these days, not considered shocking or taboo)?
- throwanem 9y agoWhether it's worse or not doesn't bear on the moral weight of whether or not one involves oneself in it. Yes, parents who are going to abuse their children are going to abuse their children. It's another thing entirely to say "good on these people for helping those parents abuse their children, it's a great way to make bank!"
- matthiasdv 9y agoThis is insane. Whoa.
- purplethinking 9y agoJeez, can parents just chillax for a bit? Hyper-parenting aside, I feel that the conventional wisdom of disciplin and setting firm rules about everything is misguided. Just anecdotes, but it seems to me the kids who grew up with the most rules either snapped or became overly docile, boring and uncreative. I remember having sleep-overs at friends' places and just thanking the lord for having loving but extremely permissive parents. If kids have the freedom to do what they want they will take more responsibility for their own life. Staying up late and eating 5 bags of candy might sound fun at first, but after a while you figure out you'll just feel extremely bad the day after. I say let kids be people, within reasonable limits of course.
- kbutler 9y ago> Staying up late and eating 5 bags of candy might sound fun at first, but after a while you figure out you'll just feel extremely bad the day after. People don't seem very good at learning that lesson (substitute video games/binge drinking/binge netflix). Parents helping their children recognize the consequences, instead of insulating them from consequences can be beneficial. The problem is when consequences take a long time to manifest - skipping/dropping out of school, never doing homework sounds great, but 10-15 years later, it causes major problems. Similarly, the benefits of diligent practice in whatever field take a long time to manifest. These are places where loving guidance from a parent can make a big difference.
- liberte82 9y agoKids are notoriously bad at learning on their own. Give kids the choice between candy and something healthy for dinner every day, and they'll consistently pick candy. Good parenting and limits are important. But on the whole, I also see your point. I remember as a child being friends with two siblings with particularly strict parents. Everything felt so regimented... there was a specific time on certain days of the week that they were allowed to "bring out the Nintendo" and it had to be away at a certain time, on the dot. I always felt really nervous being over there, like I was on the edge of being thrown out of the house for something or other. One of the kids turned out great, the other got into drugs. Go figure.
- jdmichal 9y ago
- wonderwonder 9y agoThe article does not seem to ever define what a strike is and the repercussions. Maybe they should just sit down and talk to the kid instead of taking parenting advice from 20 year olds. The child explained to the reporter what his problems were, did the parents ever ask or seek to remedy the situation. Also way to go ahead and use your child as a sales tactic for a behavior modification company. All of the other kids at his school will know about it now. Just talk to your children, pay attention to them and treat them with respect, that will get you half way there.
- clort 9y agoThe article does not discuss it indeed, but an essential part of behavioural conditioning is to have discussions about why sanctions were applied so that the parties involved do not just blindly fight the system. They need to be part of the system, so if at that time they can argue that the rule is unjust then the rule may be changed or removed. In the article it was said that although Shep was told to get ready for bed, he said he would read for a bit instead and this was accepted as there was a good reason for it. I expect that this came out of a previous discussion.
- Animats 9y agoThis is scary. Now some YC startup will figure out how to automate the surveillance and scale this. Big Brother, but less labor intensive. Just something that snoops on your kids' phones and uses machine learning to evaluate what they're doing would do more than half the job these "Cognition Builders" are doing.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- munificent 9y ago> In Our Kids: The American Dream in Crisis, social scientist Robert D. > Putnam describes how, beginning in the 1980s, “the dominant ideas and > social norms about good parenting have shifted from Spock’s ‘permissive > parenting’ to a new model of ‘intensive parenting.’ ” I wonder how much of this is a consequence of increasing economic disparity in the US. In the 70s, there were middle class jobs a-plenty. As long as your kid wasn't a total degenerate, they could probably find a decent job to sustain a happy middle-class lifestyle when they got out of high school. Now, there is an increasing arms race where more and more over-educated and over-training young people are competing for fewer jobs that pay less. The slope of the income distribution is getting steeper and steeper. Your kid is going to enter a job market with fewer opportunities and less pay, meanwhile they will be surrounded by tons of other kids all feverishly competing for the same jobs. If your kid doesn't have the right grades to get into the right school to get the right degree and thus the right internship, it's very easy to slip into poverty (and the crippling student debt on top doesn't help). The anxiety around parenting in some ways reflects a rational observation that the world we are preparing our children for is not as welcoming as the one we grew up in.
- nsxwolf 9y agoThis is why we spend our money on Disney World and other experiences for the kids instead of saving for college. That might be a controversial idea, but we'd rather have them grow up with a fun childhood instead of just making it to a university, feeling empty and hollow inside, and have it all just be some lotto ticket anyway.
- linkregister 9y agoI think you underestimate the cost of college or overestimate the cost of Disney park tickets.
- nsxwolf 9y agoIf I'm underestimating the cost of college then all the more reason to spend the money on something else. For all I know a 4 year degree will cost $500k in the next 10-20 years. I have 4 kids. Do the math.
- DanBC 9y agoThis is a weaponized version of "The Elf on the Shelf", which is also creepy, but not nearly as creepy or abusive as this.
- crooked-v 9y agoHoly crap. As a kid, I had minor privacy and personal space issues, and I can only imagine how bad they'd have been exacerbated by being watched by strangers through a camera all the time. I have to imagine those cameras might have lasted maybe two or three days in my case.
- DanBC 9y ago> “They also pushed me to have them in all the kids’ bedrooms How do they avoid capturing images of naked children?
- DanBC 9y agoI normally avoid talking about downvotes, but I'm interested in why this got at least 3. A company is pushing customers to install webcams into the bedrooms of children. This puts them at some significant legal risk.
- TeMPOraL 9y agoYeah. I revisited this thread today hoping someone gave you an answer. I'm curious how they're handling it too.
- fallingfrog 9y ago“I thought my rules were stronger than they were. [Cognition Builders] showed me how I’d turned my children into negotiators." Why is that a bad thing? Don't you want your kids to be able to stick up for themselves? The quote at the end is just heart-wrenching: “I think the best thing is being able to talk to my friends and my family. And the worst thing is definitely having a lot of homework. I’m taking a lot of honors classes. And then I have therapy once a week, drums once a week, tutoring twice a week, and an executive-functioning tutor once a week.” Poor kid just wants to talk to his family and they stick him with the executive functioning crap. He's going to grow up and be pretty angry about this.
- ThrustVectoring 9y agoI'm reminded of a quote from something related to nonviolent communication I read. It went something like: "You cannot make someone do anything - you can only make them regret not doing what you want. And soon, you'll find they they have ways to make you regret making them regret not doing what you want." My parents were also huge fans of the operant conditioning style. They definitely wanted to have convenient kids that fed their "I'm a good parent" ego. When I got bored and tired of school in my early teens, this caused a significant amount of conflict. I basically decided that the level of punishment they were in fact willing to inflict was my better than paying the escalating costs of keeping them happy with me. I ended up spending a week in my room reading books with no access to things they were actually willing to take from me. They were wisely unwilling to cross the line into actual abuse - no withholding food, physical punishment, etc. It was pretty much just limited to angry lectures that I dissociated through and waiting around with books in my room. And since they had some empathy and "punish me until I improve" wasn't working, they blinked first and let up. Anyhow, I guess my point is that this sort of thing would have been completely unacceptable to childhood-me. It would have done little other than provoke reactance. Like this: >“Hey, buttholes!” he said. “Why don’t you leave us alone?” >At first, nothing happened. Then there was a crackle of static, followed by a voice on the other end. “That’s a strike,” it said. I'd have asked for another strike, and reiterated my request to be left alone. What could they do that's both not child abuse and worse than the constant surveillance? Depending on the specific context, my followup would've probably been physically destroying the cameras.
- hindsightbias 9y agoincubator cam, baby crib cam, baby sitter cam, pre-k... kids today grow up under constant surveillence and it would be wrong to think they as a group will have the same ideas of privacy any of us do. This will be perfectly normal for the next generation. I've heard of religious folks using cameras on kids surreptitiously and then catching them in lies and saying "God told me you..." Brave new world.
- otakucode 9y agoSo disturbing... "Our child is extremely happy in an environment where he is empowered and independent. We're going to force him into an environment where he is powerless and functions in a subservient role to every person he interacts with. And we expect him to be happy and pliable, dammit!"