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Given that the authentication methods are "differently secure," wouldn't it be good if we were offered the option to combine them and require both for unlock? I

Given that the authentication methods are "differently secure," wouldn't it be good if we were offered the option to combine them and require both for unlock? I would love to use Face ID + PIN or Touch ID + PIN for better security.

nobodyorother 9y ago
I've been wondering that too. If possible, it'd be nice to combine username, second-factor, and password, as they all perform different functions that people often ambiguate: - Your username is who you think you are. - Your second-factor (faceprint, thumbprint, keyfob) is who you claim to be. - Your password is your proof.
- rothbardrand 9y ago
  Setting up a new device does require three factors: Username, Password and a 2FA on an existing device. But even with a 4 digit PIN most people didn't have PINs set up on their devices, so increasing friction will not result in more security. If you want max security now, you can simply turn off TouchID or FaceID and us a very long alpha numeric password.
- ballenf 9y ago
  Large public systems could do away with usernames if they assigned random, unique passwords to users out of a large keyspace. Usernames allow the keyspace to be smaller and the keys have less entropy making user chosen keys possible. But then we add key minimum entropy requirements (sometimes using only length as a proxy) in order to combat the freedom given. Would be interesting to see whether username-less public systems suffer fewer intrusions. Some users would record their passwords in unsafe places, but they couldn't reuse a password eliminating password stuffing as an attack surface. Of course, if you allow password resets you'd still have a kind of "backup" username presuming a person's email address could be used for the reset. But that wouldn't significantly weaken the security, arguably.
nxsynonym 9y ago
I want this, and also the ability to secure different areas of my phone. I want to be able to set touch or PINs for certain apps, so that I can have multi level security. Why is there so much emphasis on one master password/touch ID/face ID instead of having multiple security checks?
- jfaat 9y ago
  All of my banking apps, among others (e.g. password manager), include options for both pin and touchID auth. Do we not already have what you’re asking for?
  - kfriede 9y ago
    I think he's requesting it on the system level. For example, if iOS allowed you to force PIN+TID when opening a specific (not necessarily secure) app for the first time after an unlock. Intended for apps that don't necessarily have security built in already.
    - mulletbum 9y ago
      This is especially useful for when the app developer doesn't think there is a reason for them to develop such a system. For example, I don't want my son playing a zombie game, but I myself play it often. I could then lock him out of said game, but still give him my phone to use.
      - irrational 9y ago
        This isn't exactly what you are looking for, but have you tried Guided Access on iOS (or whatever the equivalent is on Android)?
        mulletbum 9y ago
        Yes, that is the way I do it currently. It's a real pain though.
TheDongIsYou 9y ago
There still must be another mechanism to access it like a password. What if the camera fails? What if you get punched in the face that day?
- tonyztan 9y ago
  We can have two options for unlock: (Face ID + PIN) OR (Alphanumeric Passphrase). The former for daily use and the latter as backup or for system restart.
- Karunamon 9y ago
  That’s what it does right now - if Touch ID or face id fails you still have your password to fall back on. I think it may do this automatically if the touch sensor dies but you can always force it with the 5x quick taps on the power button.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    It is, but GP is saying if the auto method is FaceID + password and FaceID doesn't work... then what? Clearly just the password isn't enough to get you into the phone.
ernsheong 9y ago
I'm calling it that Touch ID will make a comeback: https://twitter.com/ernsheong/status/908018119595003904 https://twitter.com/ernsheong/status/908018119595003904 How bout: Touch ID + Face ID. Hahaa
- cmsj 9y ago
  I'm not sure that Touch ID can come back in its current form. Phil stood on stage and told us Touch ID is 50,000 secure and Face ID is 1,000,000 secure. I think the only way for Touch ID to come back is for it to cover the whole display, so it can authenticate every touch.
  - phire 9y ago
    Agreed. If you could make it so every single tap was scanned, you could make the phone so secure, yet so simple to use. The phone could constantly monitor both Face ID and full-screen Touch ID at the same time, and if it detects anything funky going down it can panic and lock. Would close down attacks where someone grabs your phone off you while it's unlocked and quickly disables security.
    - colejohnson66 9y ago
      But then people you hand your phone to wouldn’t be able to use it
  - ernsheong 9y ago
    Authenticating every touch sounds way overkill. And your friend can't help you navigate around anymore :( Some human element is lost.
  - Thrymr 9y ago
    > I think the only way for Touch ID to come back is for it to cover the whole display, so it can authenticate every touch. Touch ID only works on the first try about half the time for me, I would love to bring that experience to all my interactions with my phone.
jakebellacera 9y ago
I also believe that TouchID + FaceID would be a good combo as well for the vast majority of users. Both technologies seem to be relatively foolproof and user-friendly. Upping the ante from a security perspective would be a good thing. Unfortunately, that won't come to fruition.
JoshTriplett 9y ago
Exactly what I'd like as well. I'd like to be able to use one of two methods to unlock: a fingerprint and a modest PIN (with lock-out after a couple of tries), and a long passphrase (also required at boot).
mmcnl 9y ago
The problem is that the PIN is always dominant over Face ID or Touch ID. Face ID doesn't work? Use your PIN. What happens if you use local 2FA and your Face ID doesn't work? You can't enter the PIN, because that would effectively render 2FA useless. This would probably require some master PIN, which makes things more complex, and increased complexity correlates which reduced security.

nobodyorother 9y ago

I've been wondering that too. If possible, it'd be nice to combine username, second-factor, and password, as they all perform different functions that people often ambiguate: - Your username is who you think you are. - Your second-factor (faceprint, thumbprint, keyfob) is who you claim to be. - Your password is your proof.

rothbardrand 9y ago
Setting up a new device does require three factors: Username, Password and a 2FA on an existing device. But even with a 4 digit PIN most people didn't have PINs set up on their devices, so increasing friction will not result in more security. If you want max security now, you can simply turn off TouchID or FaceID and us a very long alpha numeric password.
ballenf 9y ago
Large public systems could do away with usernames if they assigned random, unique passwords to users out of a large keyspace. Usernames allow the keyspace to be smaller and the keys have less entropy making user chosen keys possible. But then we add key minimum entropy requirements (sometimes using only length as a proxy) in order to combat the freedom given. Would be interesting to see whether username-less public systems suffer fewer intrusions. Some users would record their passwords in unsafe places, but they couldn't reuse a password eliminating password stuffing as an attack surface. Of course, if you allow password resets you'd still have a kind of "backup" username presuming a person's email address could be used for the reset. But that wouldn't significantly weaken the security, arguably.

nxsynonym 9y ago

I want this, and also the ability to secure different areas of my phone. I want to be able to set touch or PINs for certain apps, so that I can have multi level security. Why is there so much emphasis on one master password/touch ID/face ID instead of having multiple security checks?

jfaat 9y ago
All of my banking apps, among others (e.g. password manager), include options for both pin and touchID auth. Do we not already have what you’re asking for?
- kfriede 9y ago
  I think he's requesting it on the system level. For example, if iOS allowed you to force PIN+TID when opening a specific (not necessarily secure) app for the first time after an unlock. Intended for apps that don't necessarily have security built in already.
  - mulletbum 9y ago
    This is especially useful for when the app developer doesn't think there is a reason for them to develop such a system. For example, I don't want my son playing a zombie game, but I myself play it often. I could then lock him out of said game, but still give him my phone to use.
    - irrational 9y ago
      This isn't exactly what you are looking for, but have you tried Guided Access on iOS (or whatever the equivalent is on Android)?
      - mulletbum 9y ago
        Yes, that is the way I do it currently. It's a real pain though.

TheDongIsYou 9y ago

There still must be another mechanism to access it like a password. What if the camera fails? What if you get punched in the face that day?

tonyztan 9y ago
We can have two options for unlock: (Face ID + PIN) OR (Alphanumeric Passphrase). The former for daily use and the latter as backup or for system restart.
Karunamon 9y ago
That’s what it does right now - if Touch ID or face id fails you still have your password to fall back on. I think it may do this automatically if the touch sensor dies but you can always force it with the 5x quick taps on the power button.
- MBCook 9y ago
  It is, but GP is saying if the auto method is FaceID + password and FaceID doesn't work... then what? Clearly just the password isn't enough to get you into the phone.

ernsheong 9y ago

I'm calling it that Touch ID will make a comeback: https://twitter.com/ernsheong/status/908018119595003904 https://twitter.com/ernsheong/status/908018119595003904 How bout: Touch ID + Face ID. Hahaa

cmsj 9y ago
I'm not sure that Touch ID can come back in its current form. Phil stood on stage and told us Touch ID is 50,000 secure and Face ID is 1,000,000 secure. I think the only way for Touch ID to come back is for it to cover the whole display, so it can authenticate every touch.
- phire 9y ago
  Agreed. If you could make it so every single tap was scanned, you could make the phone so secure, yet so simple to use. The phone could constantly monitor both Face ID and full-screen Touch ID at the same time, and if it detects anything funky going down it can panic and lock. Would close down attacks where someone grabs your phone off you while it's unlocked and quickly disables security.
  - colejohnson66 9y ago
    But then people you hand your phone to wouldn’t be able to use it
- ernsheong 9y ago
  Authenticating every touch sounds way overkill. And your friend can't help you navigate around anymore :( Some human element is lost.
- Thrymr 9y ago
  > I think the only way for Touch ID to come back is for it to cover the whole display, so it can authenticate every touch. Touch ID only works on the first try about half the time for me, I would love to bring that experience to all my interactions with my phone.

jakebellacera 9y ago

I also believe that TouchID + FaceID would be a good combo as well for the vast majority of users. Both technologies seem to be relatively foolproof and user-friendly. Upping the ante from a security perspective would be a good thing. Unfortunately, that won't come to fruition.

JoshTriplett 9y ago

Exactly what I'd like as well. I'd like to be able to use one of two methods to unlock: a fingerprint and a modest PIN (with lock-out after a couple of tries), and a long passphrase (also required at boot).

mmcnl 9y ago

The problem is that the PIN is always dominant over Face ID or Touch ID. Face ID doesn't work? Use your PIN. What happens if you use local 2FA and your Face ID doesn't work? You can't enter the PIN, because that would effectively render 2FA useless. This would probably require some master PIN, which makes things more complex, and increased complexity correlates which reduced security.