6 ms·

Turks detained for using ByLock 'had human rights breached'

67 points by gfredtech 9y ago

kakarot 9y ago
Dear god. All of those poor people dismissed from their jobs... Just how long before this is happening in the US?
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  This is basically the same behavior seen in post red scare, McCarthyism, the inquisition. It's happened before. It's happened in many countries. Society has yet to develop a successful and long lived method of controlling it's actions in a way that doesn't grossly mistreat people (and people who associate with them) who threaten the status quo with rapid change.
donquichotte 9y ago
Wow, Erdogan really turned his "assassination attempt" into a Reichstagsbrand![0] It's quite disheartening to see the rise of a fascist dictator in the 21st century. I'm afraid for my progressive friends in Istanbul. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
- diminish 9y ago
  It's not an assassination attempt, it's a military fascist coup attempt which killed hundreds and wounded thousands of people and it's not about the elected president. If you're looking for fascist dictators, look at all around Europe the rising of many racist/fascists leaders and parties rising everywhere and grabbing broad public support. Be afraid for yourself my friend. Edit: The coup attempt is real and I have seen it myself and how people were murdered by the Fethullah members.
  - nurettin 9y ago
    Fascist coup to topple the Turkish government with only 1000 soldiers? This is fake, if I've ever seen a fake coup in the history of fake coups perpetrated by the government itself in order to solidify it's dictatorship over the people. And now we live in a permanent "state of emergency", people unrelated to any religious organisation being fired from their jobs all over the country, to be replaced by collegues favored by newly designated heads of department. Doesn't that ring any bells to you? Nothing?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - nurettin 9y ago
      "People got killed, I saw it, so the coup was not done by the government" <- this is just naive. You can't possibly take over a government with standing army 2 million strong using 1000 soldiers, 5 jet planes and 3 tanks. Also, if a fighter jet pilot really wanted to level the parliament, he would. Just think about it. It is all a big show. This is the only likely explanation. It is 1984 all over again. Everyone fears that their economy will get worse, so they try to keep status quo. I'm not judging. Everyone has a right to fear. I'd also vote akp because I also fear losing my family. Screw courage. Just saying it is obviously fake and government extorts people using economy, and people know this.
cryoshon 9y ago
but when will turks "fight back" rather than continuing to suffer under a petty dictator who arrests them for their app use?
- QAPereo 9y ago
  History says... when life becomes so unbearable that losing it in a fight becomes an acceptable alternative.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    North Korea, Nazi Germany, The USSR....
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      People did fight in each case, sometimes they lose though.
      - dogma1138 9y ago
        Mostly due to occupation not as much internally. What you said is true for an occupier because for them it's a cost benefit calculation and they can always go back home. For a national dictator it's a life and death calculation. Erdogan at this point cannot step down without facing trial or exile in his future.
        QAPereo 9y ago
        Sure, but look at how long places like Egypt and Tunisia stayed under one dictator... generations often decline until the tipping point is reached. Remember that in the Middle East and North Africa it took global climate change leading to droughts and economic detestation to impel the population to act.
        dogma1138 9y ago
johansch 9y ago
I think the international community should implement tech export limitations already at this stage, rather then ten years down the line when they have completely cemented their dictatorship.
- misja111 9y ago
  I like Erdogan as little as you do, but he is not a dictator; he has been democratically elected and enjoys a lot of support from most of the Turkish population. Which makes it a bit odd to impose sanctions on Turkey; should we impose sanctions on people because of the laws that they (indirectly) have chosen for themselves?
  - johansch 9y ago
    Well, in a word, yeah. It's clear where they are headed towards, the next six months may be the last chance to change this. The most critical contracts are these two (number three is state-owned): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mobile_network_operators_of_the_Middle_East_and_Africa#Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mobile_network_operato...
    - johansch 9y ago
      1. Turkcell - primarily TeliaSonia (Sweden :/ ) 2. Vodafone (100% Vodafone)
  - rebuilder 9y ago
    Depends on the laws. If a country's laws contravene e.g. international human rights treaties, that potentially seems like solid grounds for sanctions.
    - 21 9y ago
      Before we get to Turkey there are other much more outrageous human rights violators. For example Saudi Arabia, where if you say that you are atheist you are punishable by death and will be. But instead of sanctions, US, UK, France and others do multi-billion arms deals with them. "In March 2014, the Saudi interior ministry issued a royal decree branding all atheists as terrorists"
mnw21cam 9y ago
Non-amp link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/turks-detained-encrypted-bylock-messaging-app-human-rights-breached https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/turks-detained...
Loic 9y ago
The most terrific part is that Turks outside of Turkey (here in Germany) are now censuring themselves as they are afraid to be monitored and as a result be arrested when going to Turkey for vacations and visiting family.
m00dy 9y ago
Kemalist Turk here, Whoever installed or used ByLock in Turkey, then she/he is 99% Gulenist. ByLock server logs were taken from a datacenter in Lithuania by our national intelligence. So, Tr government has much more information than just IPs.
- aardshark 9y ago
  If this is not satire, then it's scary.
diminish 9y ago
Downloading the app wasn't the only reason they are under arrest. The app mentioned isn't available to anyone, but could only be used if you were endorsed by 2 members of the US-based cleric Fethullah organization. It's only "one" of the reasons people are under arrest. Most of their logs of conversation, and with whom they spoke is the main reason why they are under suspicion. The app was used extensively during the military coup attempt, executed by the members of the Fethullah organization - which killed around 250 and wounded 2000-3000 civilians during last years military coup attempt. Read Sedat Ergin articles on hurriyet.com.tr if you truly want to get informed about the court case against the military coup attempt. He is a well respected investigative journalist. [1] http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/sedat-ergin/darbe-saniklarinin-inkar-stratejisi-40577077 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/sedat-ergin/darbe-sanikl...
- dmix 9y ago
  Any reason to arrest 75,000 is a fishing expedition and very easily swept up thousands of innocent people. Nor should these people be punished for being affiliated with a political organization, even if some of the top members were involved with a coup. Ignoring that, this article also says otherwise regarding "two members" had to authorize you in order to use it: > ByLock was available to everyone, it had been downloaded around the world and was in the top 500 apps in 41 separate countries. > “It was downloaded over 600,000 times between April 2014 and April 2016 by users all over the world,” It sounds like the reaction of a paranoid despot. It reminds me of the way Saddam Hussein's government would crack down on political dissent. And of course state propaganda would be used to justify it by saying only criminals were being punished.
  - diminish 9y ago
    >>regarding "two members" had to authorize So members of this sect give you a user name and 2 people must endorse you to get access. Also chat logs leading to the attempted coup attempt are acquired from an hacked server in Estonia.
    - solnyshok 9y ago
pjc50 9y ago
Well, this thread is clearly going to be heavily trolled by pro-Erdogan activists ..
- donquichotte 9y ago
  Agreed, downvoting and flagging valid comments is rampant.
Joe-Z 9y ago
Wow, are we really just deleting comments from people we don't agree with? I haven't seen any insults here, just people commenting from a seemingly pro-Erdogan perspective. What's the reasoning behind that? EDIT: Specifically I'm referring to diminish's comment from ~1 hour ago.
- diminish 9y ago
  Sad part is that I'm not even pro-Erdogan. I vocally disagree and vote against most of his policies/approach etc. But people on this thread want to see a black and white picture conforming to their distorted vision and can't tolerate the reality as it has occurred. Sad. EDIT: here's the flagged comment: Downloading the app wasn't the only reason they are under arrest. The app mentioned isn't available to anyone, but could only be used if you were endorsed by 2 members of the US-based cleric Fethullah organization. It's only "one" of the reasons people are under arrest. Most of their logs of conversation, and with whom they spoke is the main reason why they are under suspicion. The app was used extensively during the military coup attempt, executed by the members of the Fethullah organization - which killed around 250 and wounded 2000-3000 civilians during last years military coup attempt. Read Sedat Ergin articles on hurriyet.com.tr if you truly want to get informed about the court case against the military coup attempt. He is a well respected investigative journalist (definitely not pro-Erdogan). [1] http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/sedat-ergin/darbe-saniklarinin-inkar-stratejisi-40577077 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/sedat-ergin/darbe-sanikl...
  - e12e 9y ago
    I don't see why the post was flagged without comment. That said, this: > The app mentioned isn't available to anyone, but could only be used if you were endorsed by 2 members of the US-based cleric Fethullah organization. Seems flat out wrong? Bylock isn't available in the Norwegian Google play store (or indeed anywhere now - it's been unpublished?), but appears to have been generally available?: https://www.appbrain.com/app/bylock%3A-secure-chat-talk/net.client.by.lock https://www.appbrain.com/app/bylock%3A-secure-chat-talk/net.... https://bylock-secure-chat-talk.droidinformer.org/de/ https://bylock-secure-chat-talk.droidinformer.org/de/ Note the top comment (troll): > COUP PLOTTER wrote > Should have just used Orbot any old xmpp chat client. Now we're all jail. See you next time :D > 13. Oktober 2016

67 points by gfredtech 9y ago

kakarot 9y ago

Dear god. All of those poor people dismissed from their jobs... Just how long before this is happening in the US?

dsfyu404ed 9y ago
This is basically the same behavior seen in post red scare, McCarthyism, the inquisition. It's happened before. It's happened in many countries. Society has yet to develop a successful and long lived method of controlling it's actions in a way that doesn't grossly mistreat people (and people who associate with them) who threaten the status quo with rapid change.

donquichotte 9y ago

Wow, Erdogan really turned his "assassination attempt" into a Reichstagsbrand![0] It's quite disheartening to see the rise of a fascist dictator in the 21st century. I'm afraid for my progressive friends in Istanbul. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

diminish 9y ago
It's not an assassination attempt, it's a military fascist coup attempt which killed hundreds and wounded thousands of people and it's not about the elected president. If you're looking for fascist dictators, look at all around Europe the rising of many racist/fascists leaders and parties rising everywhere and grabbing broad public support. Be afraid for yourself my friend. Edit: The coup attempt is real and I have seen it myself and how people were murdered by the Fethullah members.
- nurettin 9y ago
  Fascist coup to topple the Turkish government with only 1000 soldiers? This is fake, if I've ever seen a fake coup in the history of fake coups perpetrated by the government itself in order to solidify it's dictatorship over the people. And now we live in a permanent "state of emergency", people unrelated to any religious organisation being fired from their jobs all over the country, to be replaced by collegues favored by newly designated heads of department. Doesn't that ring any bells to you? Nothing?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - nurettin 9y ago
    "People got killed, I saw it, so the coup was not done by the government" <- this is just naive. You can't possibly take over a government with standing army 2 million strong using 1000 soldiers, 5 jet planes and 3 tanks. Also, if a fighter jet pilot really wanted to level the parliament, he would. Just think about it. It is all a big show. This is the only likely explanation. It is 1984 all over again. Everyone fears that their economy will get worse, so they try to keep status quo. I'm not judging. Everyone has a right to fear. I'd also vote akp because I also fear losing my family. Screw courage. Just saying it is obviously fake and government extorts people using economy, and people know this.

cryoshon 9y ago

but when will turks "fight back" rather than continuing to suffer under a petty dictator who arrests them for their app use?

QAPereo 9y ago
History says... when life becomes so unbearable that losing it in a fight becomes an acceptable alternative.
- dogma1138 9y ago
  North Korea, Nazi Germany, The USSR....
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    People did fight in each case, sometimes they lose though.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      Mostly due to occupation not as much internally. What you said is true for an occupier because for them it's a cost benefit calculation and they can always go back home. For a national dictator it's a life and death calculation. Erdogan at this point cannot step down without facing trial or exile in his future.
      - QAPereo 9y ago
        Sure, but look at how long places like Egypt and Tunisia stayed under one dictator... generations often decline until the tipping point is reached. Remember that in the Middle East and North Africa it took global climate change leading to droughts and economic detestation to impel the population to act.
        dogma1138 9y ago

johansch 9y ago

I think the international community should implement tech export limitations already at this stage, rather then ten years down the line when they have completely cemented their dictatorship.

misja111 9y ago
I like Erdogan as little as you do, but he is not a dictator; he has been democratically elected and enjoys a lot of support from most of the Turkish population. Which makes it a bit odd to impose sanctions on Turkey; should we impose sanctions on people because of the laws that they (indirectly) have chosen for themselves?
- johansch 9y ago
  Well, in a word, yeah. It's clear where they are headed towards, the next six months may be the last chance to change this. The most critical contracts are these two (number three is state-owned): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mobile_network_operators_of_the_Middle_East_and_Africa#Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mobile_network_operato...
  - johansch 9y ago
    1. Turkcell - primarily TeliaSonia (Sweden :/ ) 2. Vodafone (100% Vodafone)
- rebuilder 9y ago
  Depends on the laws. If a country's laws contravene e.g. international human rights treaties, that potentially seems like solid grounds for sanctions.
  - 21 9y ago
    Before we get to Turkey there are other much more outrageous human rights violators. For example Saudi Arabia, where if you say that you are atheist you are punishable by death and will be. But instead of sanctions, US, UK, France and others do multi-billion arms deals with them. "In March 2014, the Saudi interior ministry issued a royal decree branding all atheists as terrorists"

mnw21cam 9y ago

Non-amp link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/turks-detained-encrypted-bylock-messaging-app-human-rights-breached https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/turks-detained...

Loic 9y ago

The most terrific part is that Turks outside of Turkey (here in Germany) are now censuring themselves as they are afraid to be monitored and as a result be arrested when going to Turkey for vacations and visiting family.

m00dy 9y ago

Kemalist Turk here, Whoever installed or used ByLock in Turkey, then she/he is 99% Gulenist. ByLock server logs were taken from a datacenter in Lithuania by our national intelligence. So, Tr government has much more information than just IPs.

aardshark 9y ago
If this is not satire, then it's scary.

diminish 9y ago

Downloading the app wasn't the only reason they are under arrest. The app mentioned isn't available to anyone, but could only be used if you were endorsed by 2 members of the US-based cleric Fethullah organization. It's only "one" of the reasons people are under arrest. Most of their logs of conversation, and with whom they spoke is the main reason why they are under suspicion. The app was used extensively during the military coup attempt, executed by the members of the Fethullah organization - which killed around 250 and wounded 2000-3000 civilians during last years military coup attempt. Read Sedat Ergin articles on hurriyet.com.tr if you truly want to get informed about the court case against the military coup attempt. He is a well respected investigative journalist. [1] http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/sedat-ergin/darbe-saniklarinin-inkar-stratejisi-40577077 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/sedat-ergin/darbe-sanikl...

dmix 9y ago
Any reason to arrest 75,000 is a fishing expedition and very easily swept up thousands of innocent people. Nor should these people be punished for being affiliated with a political organization, even if some of the top members were involved with a coup. Ignoring that, this article also says otherwise regarding "two members" had to authorize you in order to use it: > ByLock was available to everyone, it had been downloaded around the world and was in the top 500 apps in 41 separate countries. > “It was downloaded over 600,000 times between April 2014 and April 2016 by users all over the world,” It sounds like the reaction of a paranoid despot. It reminds me of the way Saddam Hussein's government would crack down on political dissent. And of course state propaganda would be used to justify it by saying only criminals were being punished.
- diminish 9y ago
  >>regarding "two members" had to authorize So members of this sect give you a user name and 2 people must endorse you to get access. Also chat logs leading to the attempted coup attempt are acquired from an hacked server in Estonia.
  - solnyshok 9y ago

pjc50 9y ago

Well, this thread is clearly going to be heavily trolled by pro-Erdogan activists ..

donquichotte 9y ago
Agreed, downvoting and flagging valid comments is rampant.

Joe-Z 9y ago

Wow, are we really just deleting comments from people we don't agree with? I haven't seen any insults here, just people commenting from a seemingly pro-Erdogan perspective. What's the reasoning behind that? EDIT: Specifically I'm referring to diminish's comment from ~1 hour ago.

diminish 9y ago
Sad part is that I'm not even pro-Erdogan. I vocally disagree and vote against most of his policies/approach etc. But people on this thread want to see a black and white picture conforming to their distorted vision and can't tolerate the reality as it has occurred. Sad. EDIT: here's the flagged comment: Downloading the app wasn't the only reason they are under arrest. The app mentioned isn't available to anyone, but could only be used if you were endorsed by 2 members of the US-based cleric Fethullah organization. It's only "one" of the reasons people are under arrest. Most of their logs of conversation, and with whom they spoke is the main reason why they are under suspicion. The app was used extensively during the military coup attempt, executed by the members of the Fethullah organization - which killed around 250 and wounded 2000-3000 civilians during last years military coup attempt. Read Sedat Ergin articles on hurriyet.com.tr if you truly want to get informed about the court case against the military coup attempt. He is a well respected investigative journalist (definitely not pro-Erdogan). [1] http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/sedat-ergin/darbe-saniklarinin-inkar-stratejisi-40577077 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/sedat-ergin/darbe-sanikl...
- e12e 9y ago
  I don't see why the post was flagged without comment. That said, this: > The app mentioned isn't available to anyone, but could only be used if you were endorsed by 2 members of the US-based cleric Fethullah organization. Seems flat out wrong? Bylock isn't available in the Norwegian Google play store (or indeed anywhere now - it's been unpublished?), but appears to have been generally available?: https://www.appbrain.com/app/bylock%3A-secure-chat-talk/net.client.by.lock https://www.appbrain.com/app/bylock%3A-secure-chat-talk/net.... https://bylock-secure-chat-talk.droidinformer.org/de/ https://bylock-secure-chat-talk.droidinformer.org/de/ Note the top comment (troll): > COUP PLOTTER wrote > Should have just used Orbot any old xmpp chat client. Now we're all jail. See you next time :D > 13. Oktober 2016