4 ms·

This article is effectively a straw man. It uses an argument which isn't directly applicable (not central to the points made by James Damore in the Google Memo)

This article is effectively a straw man. It uses an argument which isn't directly applicable (not central to the points made by James Damore in the Google Memo) to give an appearance of being reasonable. If you want to be more familiar with the science James Damore was referencing, take a look at this video of a presentation by Steven Pinker and the sources referenced therein. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PaL5FW5src https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PaL5FW5src The key takeaway for the Google Memo, is that James Damore was fired for referencing mainstream science, then asking if that was relevant to Google's hiring practices. What's more, many of his coworkers and many of my fellow college classmates were more than willing to throw him under the bus and impute all sorts of unsavory thoughts and emotions to Mr. Damore with no evidence, while the Google management was willing to publicly do the same while re-disseminating his memo in the worst way possible to encourage misreadings of it. See also Christina Hoff Summers' video on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu4tB9W3xFo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu4tB9W3xFo Steven Pinker identifies as a feminist, as does Christina Hoff Summers. Diane Halpern certainly isn't a misogynist. The extreme left which ascribes to Postmodernist political theories is coming for the scientists, rationalist nerds, and Aspergers neuro-atypicals. They want to cow everyone into agreeing to their ideologically driven Lysenkoist-like censored science. They represent a new authoritarianism operating through a fear of social ostracism and economic disenfranchisement. (You don't have to take my word for it -- you can take theirs. Just pay attention to what campus activists have been saying since about 2014.) If you believe in rational discourse, free speech, and meritocracy, you need to courageously speak out against these authoritarians. (First they came for the social scientists and evolutionary biologists...)

tptacek 9y ago
Can you tell me more about what you believe that Pinker video establishes? I have generally high regard for your comments. But in this instance, I think your claim about what happened to Damore is facially flawed. Damore didn't simply "reference mainstream science". Whether you agree with him or not, I don't think it's possible to defend the claim that he was fired for citations. I'd also urge you to step back from the Damore framing of this post. I know why it's hard to escape. But I think the author is just using Damore as an opportunity to make a more general statistical point. Certainly, at no point in this post does the author even mention Damore by name, let alone advocate for his termination.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Can you tell me more about what you believe that Pinker video establishes? What I say it establishes. That James Damore was referencing mainstream science. One might reasonably conclude that his conclusions are wrong. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA I think all of those who concluded that he was being a misogynist have no leg to stand on. The accusation is levied just to silence views that are not liked. I'd also urge you to step back from the Damore framing of this post. I know why it's hard to escape. But I think the author is just using Damore as an opportunity to make a more general statistical point. I don't have a problem with the article's statistical point. I think there are all sorts of opportunities to make points here.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Well, you and I disagree about Damore, but I'd be happy to leave it at "at least two reasonable people can disagree about it". Here, though, I just see a professional biostatistician making a basic point about how genetically-influenced traits do and don't influence real-world outcomes. It may seem basic, but if it is, it's not obvious to the typical HN thread! Later edit I mean, doesn't it seem apparent just from the responses on this thread?
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      I mean, doesn't it seem apparent just from the responses on this thread? Not at all. Also, for the record, as far as I can tell, James Damore is not a member of the Alt Right. (I identify as a Center Left Liberal.) I have noted that mainstream news people have tried to stick that on him. If your argument involves hazily imputing motives without evidence, or if you are using a "No true Scotsman" fallacy involving his position -- then I'm afraid you're just using a fallacy. If you watch Steven Pinker's presentation, you will see a striking resemblance to the science cited in the Damore memo. Until recent years, there was nothing pointedly ideological about the mainstream science referenced in either place. I would urge you to read Pinker's _The Blank Slate_ for a scientist's take on the pointedly ideological and unsupported absolutist doctrine of the human Blank Slate.
skywhopper 9y ago
Sure there are sex differences in the distribution of traits. How does any of this relate to suitability for software engineering jobs? Men with certain traits decide that hiring people like themselves is the path to success, make workplaces unfriendly to women, and then claim the sex distribution of their workers is innate and nothing can be done because science proves that men and women don't have identical distributions on certain personality and intelligence traits!
- naasking 9y ago
  > Men with certain traits decide that hiring people like themselves is the path to success, make workplaces unfriendly to women Facts don't fit your narrative. The percentage of female software engineers at Google matches the percentage of female software engineers that graduate with CS degrees. If sexism is driving women away from CS, then it's driving them away way earlier than when they apply for jobs at Google.
dekhn 9y ago
Thank you for courageously calling out the extremely scary trend of science denialism amongst modern far-left progressives. I work at a tech company in the Bay Area, and it's been shocking just how quickly a majority of the company turned into intolerant people as soon as their world-view was challenged by a rational argument. That said, Damore did himself and everybody else no favors by writing the document in the style he did. A much simpler memo, with a simple thesis, would have been much more effective.
specialist 9y ago
Had to look up Lysenkoism. Thanks for the new pejorative. I've added it to my filter bubble. Any principle of charity one could have had towards Damore was soundly negated by his actions afterwards. --- "The pseudo-scientific ideas of Lysenkoism assumed the heritability of acquired characteristics. Lysenko's theory rejected Mendelian inheritance and the concept of the "gene"; it departed from Darwinian evolutionary theory by rejecting natural selection." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
- stcredzero 9y ago
  (EDIT: Had to look up Lysenkoism. Thanks for the new pejorative. I've added it to my filter bubble. Okay, so upon hearing about a major chapter in the history of science, where ideology crippled science in a major world power for many years, the best you can do is to say, "I'll add it to my filter bubble!?" I'm sorry, but that's politicized anti-intellectualism of the highest degree! Shouldn't we be trying to learn from history, not denying it?) Lysenko primarily held his theory because it fit Marxist ideology. The Blank Slate is the new Lysenkoism. Any principle of charity one could have had towards Damore was soundly negated by his actions afterwards. Which actions are those? In a situation like that, why wouldn't one sue? In a situation like that, why wouldn't one appear on news outlets that would actually let you speak, and not try to turn your interview into a hit piece?

tptacek 9y ago

Can you tell me more about what you believe that Pinker video establishes? I have generally high regard for your comments. But in this instance, I think your claim about what happened to Damore is facially flawed. Damore didn't simply "reference mainstream science". Whether you agree with him or not, I don't think it's possible to defend the claim that he was fired for citations. I'd also urge you to step back from the Damore framing of this post. I know why it's hard to escape. But I think the author is just using Damore as an opportunity to make a more general statistical point. Certainly, at no point in this post does the author even mention Damore by name, let alone advocate for his termination.

stcredzero 9y ago
Can you tell me more about what you believe that Pinker video establishes? What I say it establishes. That James Damore was referencing mainstream science. One might reasonably conclude that his conclusions are wrong. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA I think all of those who concluded that he was being a misogynist have no leg to stand on. The accusation is levied just to silence views that are not liked. I'd also urge you to step back from the Damore framing of this post. I know why it's hard to escape. But I think the author is just using Damore as an opportunity to make a more general statistical point. I don't have a problem with the article's statistical point. I think there are all sorts of opportunities to make points here.
- tptacek 9y ago
  Well, you and I disagree about Damore, but I'd be happy to leave it at "at least two reasonable people can disagree about it". Here, though, I just see a professional biostatistician making a basic point about how genetically-influenced traits do and don't influence real-world outcomes. It may seem basic, but if it is, it's not obvious to the typical HN thread! Later edit I mean, doesn't it seem apparent just from the responses on this thread?
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    I mean, doesn't it seem apparent just from the responses on this thread? Not at all. Also, for the record, as far as I can tell, James Damore is not a member of the Alt Right. (I identify as a Center Left Liberal.) I have noted that mainstream news people have tried to stick that on him. If your argument involves hazily imputing motives without evidence, or if you are using a "No true Scotsman" fallacy involving his position -- then I'm afraid you're just using a fallacy. If you watch Steven Pinker's presentation, you will see a striking resemblance to the science cited in the Damore memo. Until recent years, there was nothing pointedly ideological about the mainstream science referenced in either place. I would urge you to read Pinker's _The Blank Slate_ for a scientist's take on the pointedly ideological and unsupported absolutist doctrine of the human Blank Slate.

skywhopper 9y ago

Sure there are sex differences in the distribution of traits. How does any of this relate to suitability for software engineering jobs? Men with certain traits decide that hiring people like themselves is the path to success, make workplaces unfriendly to women, and then claim the sex distribution of their workers is innate and nothing can be done because science proves that men and women don't have identical distributions on certain personality and intelligence traits!

naasking 9y ago
> Men with certain traits decide that hiring people like themselves is the path to success, make workplaces unfriendly to women Facts don't fit your narrative. The percentage of female software engineers at Google matches the percentage of female software engineers that graduate with CS degrees. If sexism is driving women away from CS, then it's driving them away way earlier than when they apply for jobs at Google.

dekhn 9y ago

Thank you for courageously calling out the extremely scary trend of science denialism amongst modern far-left progressives. I work at a tech company in the Bay Area, and it's been shocking just how quickly a majority of the company turned into intolerant people as soon as their world-view was challenged by a rational argument. That said, Damore did himself and everybody else no favors by writing the document in the style he did. A much simpler memo, with a simple thesis, would have been much more effective.

specialist 9y ago

Had to look up Lysenkoism. Thanks for the new pejorative. I've added it to my filter bubble. Any principle of charity one could have had towards Damore was soundly negated by his actions afterwards. --- "The pseudo-scientific ideas of Lysenkoism assumed the heritability of acquired characteristics. Lysenko's theory rejected Mendelian inheritance and the concept of the "gene"; it departed from Darwinian evolutionary theory by rejecting natural selection." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

stcredzero 9y ago
(EDIT: Had to look up Lysenkoism. Thanks for the new pejorative. I've added it to my filter bubble. Okay, so upon hearing about a major chapter in the history of science, where ideology crippled science in a major world power for many years, the best you can do is to say, "I'll add it to my filter bubble!?" I'm sorry, but that's politicized anti-intellectualism of the highest degree! Shouldn't we be trying to learn from history, not denying it?) Lysenko primarily held his theory because it fit Marxist ideology. The Blank Slate is the new Lysenkoism. Any principle of charity one could have had towards Damore was soundly negated by his actions afterwards. Which actions are those? In a situation like that, why wouldn't one sue? In a situation like that, why wouldn't one appear on news outlets that would actually let you speak, and not try to turn your interview into a hit piece?