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Second link points out a problem I was afraid of existing - big providers just stump on personal email servers. >Hotmail is typically deleting all emails that

Second link points out a problem I was afraid of existing - big providers just stump on personal email servers. >Hotmail is typically deleting all emails that I am sending. ... Monopolists like gmail.com won't accept any messages sent from my mail server.

simias 9y ago
I feel like I'm making this comment once a week on HN but I host my own email and I haven't had any major issue so far with "big email". The main caveat is that you will have a very hard time getting your email accepted if it comes from a home connection IP range instead of some host provider but if you do have a dedicated server and follow the guidelines (SMTPS, DKIM, SPF etc...) it just works, at least in my experience.
- dozzie 9y ago
  Hosting one's own e-mail server is a totally opaque random crapshot. You may not have any trouble, but some other dude or gal will get their e-mail marked as spam without any way to tell what exactly is wrong and what to change.
  - Belphemur 9y ago
    First step when getting an ip for a server that will be a mail server is to check if the ip is not already blacklisted. You can always get it unlisted. After that don't start to send hundred of email by day. You need to build a reputation for your domain and ip. As the parent comment says, set up directly spf, dkim and dmarc (also arc if you can). Rspamd can help you do that. I've been running a personal mail server for 5 years with simply following those rules.
    - dozzie 9y ago
      I've been running a personal mail server for twice as long with simply following those rules and my e-mail is still tagged as spam in Gmail when it's me who initiates contact (once the other party sends me an e-mail, reply or otherwise, I no longer get tagged as spam). As I said, it's totally opaque crapshot.
      - cyberpunk 9y ago
        Are you using DKIM and SPF properly? I've never had any problems with this (although, I'm not mailing from home ISP ranges)
        dozzie 9y ago
        Yes.
        cyberpunk 9y ago
        That's very strange, then. I'd recommend trying http://dkimvalidator.com/ http://dkimvalidator.com/ to make sure everything is perfect; having proper certs on your MXs seems to help too. I run a pretty large email infra (~500k/minute) and I'd help you out if I can... If you're still having problems with all that in place then why don't you just change IPs?
        dozzie 9y ago
        As I said, Gmail is opaque with regard to its spam detection. As for your help offer, thank you, but I'm good. It's usually other people who want to contact me, I rarely send the first message ever.
        cyberpunk 9y ago
        Hmm well, I've found it to be pretty straightforward, I'm curious why this is happening to you though and there must be a solution... I mean.. If you get a solid result from dkimvalidator but google is still shitlisting you then I'd definitely consider moving to another host/dc/isp at least. Depending on your size, it might be best just to make this someone else's problem (if you can) -- like google, o365, etc..
        dozzie 9y ago
        I'm definitely not giving to somebody else my /var/log/mail.log, IMAP/Mutt access, sieve rules, nor ad hoc dedicated aliases for every website account I create. And on top of that, I would land on some US-based server for ease of illegal spying and my mail would be harvested for some advertising crap, all to solve something that is not a problem for me. Not happening.
    - pricechild 9y ago
      > You can always get it unlisted. How do you do that? The vast majority of blocklists I've interacted with have been unwilling to deal with questions, instead responding only that if you fix "something" (not always specified) automated measures will remove it from the list eventually. In my experience it has also been extremely difficult to deal with people using blocklists. It's easy to find a bunch of people using .tor.dan.me.uk rather than .torexit.dan.me.uk "just to be safe". Frankly, I'm not sure why the former list exists in the first place other than to be an arse? What threats do entry/relay nodes pose to you?
      - cyberpunk 9y ago
        I worked for two very large ESPs and never really had many problems with blacklists from a deliverability perspective. Whenever one of our mailer IPs was blacklisted by one of the big targets (hotmail, gmail, etc) it would only be for 24hours after which I'd put it back into the pools (although, at least initially perhaps for our more reputable clients to warm it back up before letting the more dodgy stuff through it again). If you host your own NS's for the sender domains flipping SPF ips/ranges is not too hard (it's all automated for us, anyway). The big boys work that way at least in my experience. I'm sure sometimes you'd hit a 'somedomain.foo' domain which is using a blocklist style thing that their (usually inexperienced) sysadmins think prevents them from receiving spam; but they're not worth arguing with. If you're doing email at volume shifting sends to another range for that client is usually 'enough' to get them through if they care that much about that one segment to ask you to do it. If it's not then we'd usually refund instead of trying to negotiate with such admins. Honestly though, blacklists have never been an issue for me and I've sent a ridiculous amount of email over the last 10 years...
  - simias 9y ago
    Maybe https://www.mail-tester.com/ https://www.mail-tester.com/ would help. Also https://mxtoolbox.com/diagnostic.aspx https://mxtoolbox.com/diagnostic.aspx . If neither of these tools highlight any issues it's pretty strange indeed.
  - skrebbel 9y ago
    If I ran an evil email monopoly, I would systematically drop all email from say _half_ of the email servers out there. This way, nobody would be able to make a case that we're abusing our monopoly position, but at the same time running an email server is hard and the internet is filled with wildly varying experience reports (which is the best FUD there is). This way, fewer people start email servers and, therefore, fewer potential competitors grow up. Obviously I have no way to tell whether Google really does this, but if they would, the result would look exactly like this HN thread. I'm probably totally wrong here, but note that there is absolutely no incentive for the large email providers to try to fix this mess and make email the free distributed network it once was.
- icelancer 9y ago
  I've gotten DKIM, SPF, DMARC, etc all verified on my Digital Ocean droplet (and removed from various greylists) but still get spam checked by AT&T / SBC Global, who is the main offender of keeping a private list. I've been removed for now from their lists... but they tend to re-add IPs from previous ranges for no reason.

simias 9y ago

I feel like I'm making this comment once a week on HN but I host my own email and I haven't had any major issue so far with "big email". The main caveat is that you will have a very hard time getting your email accepted if it comes from a home connection IP range instead of some host provider but if you do have a dedicated server and follow the guidelines (SMTPS, DKIM, SPF etc...) it just works, at least in my experience.

dozzie 9y ago
Hosting one's own e-mail server is a totally opaque random crapshot. You may not have any trouble, but some other dude or gal will get their e-mail marked as spam without any way to tell what exactly is wrong and what to change.
- Belphemur 9y ago
  First step when getting an ip for a server that will be a mail server is to check if the ip is not already blacklisted. You can always get it unlisted. After that don't start to send hundred of email by day. You need to build a reputation for your domain and ip. As the parent comment says, set up directly spf, dkim and dmarc (also arc if you can). Rspamd can help you do that. I've been running a personal mail server for 5 years with simply following those rules.
  - dozzie 9y ago
    I've been running a personal mail server for twice as long with simply following those rules and my e-mail is still tagged as spam in Gmail when it's me who initiates contact (once the other party sends me an e-mail, reply or otherwise, I no longer get tagged as spam). As I said, it's totally opaque crapshot.
    - cyberpunk 9y ago
      Are you using DKIM and SPF properly? I've never had any problems with this (although, I'm not mailing from home ISP ranges)
      - dozzie 9y ago
        Yes.
        cyberpunk 9y ago
        That's very strange, then. I'd recommend trying http://dkimvalidator.com/ http://dkimvalidator.com/ to make sure everything is perfect; having proper certs on your MXs seems to help too. I run a pretty large email infra (~500k/minute) and I'd help you out if I can... If you're still having problems with all that in place then why don't you just change IPs?
        dozzie 9y ago
        As I said, Gmail is opaque with regard to its spam detection. As for your help offer, thank you, but I'm good. It's usually other people who want to contact me, I rarely send the first message ever.
        cyberpunk 9y ago
        Hmm well, I've found it to be pretty straightforward, I'm curious why this is happening to you though and there must be a solution... I mean.. If you get a solid result from dkimvalidator but google is still shitlisting you then I'd definitely consider moving to another host/dc/isp at least. Depending on your size, it might be best just to make this someone else's problem (if you can) -- like google, o365, etc..
        dozzie 9y ago
        I'm definitely not giving to somebody else my /var/log/mail.log, IMAP/Mutt access, sieve rules, nor ad hoc dedicated aliases for every website account I create. And on top of that, I would land on some US-based server for ease of illegal spying and my mail would be harvested for some advertising crap, all to solve something that is not a problem for me. Not happening.
  - pricechild 9y ago
    > You can always get it unlisted. How do you do that? The vast majority of blocklists I've interacted with have been unwilling to deal with questions, instead responding only that if you fix "something" (not always specified) automated measures will remove it from the list eventually. In my experience it has also been extremely difficult to deal with people using blocklists. It's easy to find a bunch of people using .tor.dan.me.uk rather than .torexit.dan.me.uk "just to be safe". Frankly, I'm not sure why the former list exists in the first place other than to be an arse? What threats do entry/relay nodes pose to you?
    - cyberpunk 9y ago
      I worked for two very large ESPs and never really had many problems with blacklists from a deliverability perspective. Whenever one of our mailer IPs was blacklisted by one of the big targets (hotmail, gmail, etc) it would only be for 24hours after which I'd put it back into the pools (although, at least initially perhaps for our more reputable clients to warm it back up before letting the more dodgy stuff through it again). If you host your own NS's for the sender domains flipping SPF ips/ranges is not too hard (it's all automated for us, anyway). The big boys work that way at least in my experience. I'm sure sometimes you'd hit a 'somedomain.foo' domain which is using a blocklist style thing that their (usually inexperienced) sysadmins think prevents them from receiving spam; but they're not worth arguing with. If you're doing email at volume shifting sends to another range for that client is usually 'enough' to get them through if they care that much about that one segment to ask you to do it. If it's not then we'd usually refund instead of trying to negotiate with such admins. Honestly though, blacklists have never been an issue for me and I've sent a ridiculous amount of email over the last 10 years...
- simias 9y ago
  Maybe https://www.mail-tester.com/ https://www.mail-tester.com/ would help. Also https://mxtoolbox.com/diagnostic.aspx https://mxtoolbox.com/diagnostic.aspx . If neither of these tools highlight any issues it's pretty strange indeed.
- skrebbel 9y ago
  If I ran an evil email monopoly, I would systematically drop all email from say _half_ of the email servers out there. This way, nobody would be able to make a case that we're abusing our monopoly position, but at the same time running an email server is hard and the internet is filled with wildly varying experience reports (which is the best FUD there is). This way, fewer people start email servers and, therefore, fewer potential competitors grow up. Obviously I have no way to tell whether Google really does this, but if they would, the result would look exactly like this HN thread. I'm probably totally wrong here, but note that there is absolutely no incentive for the large email providers to try to fix this mess and make email the free distributed network it once was.
icelancer 9y ago
I've gotten DKIM, SPF, DMARC, etc all verified on my Digital Ocean droplet (and removed from various greylists) but still get spam checked by AT&T / SBC Global, who is the main offender of keeping a private list. I've been removed for now from their lists... but they tend to re-add IPs from previous ranges for no reason.