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Few Cities Could Accommodate Amazon's New Headquarters
- rmason 9y agoHe needs to add Detroit to his list. Amazon already has two large warehouses and a small developer office there. The only negative on the list is a less than overwhelming public transport system. But they've got lots of cheap land, and both an international airport and an international border as well as three world class universities within an hours drive. Not to mention a metro area with a population of 4.5 million.
- ghaff 9y agoIt's reasonable to look at their RFP as a wishlist (like all RFPs). My guess is that something like good public transit will have to give among all the attributes that they'd prefer (including cost).
- pseudonymGuy 9y agoWhich universities are within an hours drive? Michigan, obviously.
- rambleraptor 9y agoPeople in the Metro Detroit area seem to conflate University of Michigan, Michigan State, and Wayne State as being equals / near equals.
- jordache 9y agoThe big state colleges are regarded as equals in the state, only in athletic terms. Everyone knows Michigan is the lone standout academically.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- dgemm 9y agoThey need to be able to convince lots of people to move there. Detroit will be a hard sell.
- johan_larson 9y agoMy impression of Detroit is that it's a bunch of pretty nice suburbs clustered around a sucking chest-wound of a city. Some areas are flat out depopulating. The government pays to demolish abandoned buildings so they don't become firetraps. If I were Amazon, I'd stay clear of such a place.
- jordache 9y agoCompared to more outdoor friendly cities out west, Detroit is a downright depressing place to live. Especially for young people.
- Upvoter33 9y agoCrazy not to add NYC to the list. Huge Google office there now, Facebook growing. Would be a good fit.
- jandrese 9y agoOne of the requirements was lots of available cheap land for expansion.
- patrickmay 9y agoNew York has both state and city income tax, it's expensive, and it doesn't need Amazon the way some other areas do. I doubt the NYC government would make it worthwhile.
- tootie 9y agoNYC has a huge Amazon presence already. They own a huge building across from Empire State Building and have more space elsewhere in Manhattan.
- bradleyjg 9y agoCost of living and unwillingness to bend over backwards for tax breaks take NYC out of the running. I think their list -- Toronto, Boston, Washington, Atlanta, Dallas or Denver -- is pretty decent though Washington and Toronto seem less likely than the others (COLA and ex-US respectively). Except for being unwilling/unable to offer very high tax breaks, Chicago would be right up there too. But I have to imagine that's going to be a very significant factor. Other long shot, but still plausible, cities are: Las Vegas, Charlotte, Detroit, and Minneapolis.
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoNobody with half a brain opens an big location in the Boston area. If you don't hate money you go to NH.
- johan_larson 9y agoAmazon seem to be looking for a well-functioning city with a lot to offer in the way of workforce and amenities, but they also really don't want to pay the top dollar it takes to locate and hire in places like SF and NYC. That means they need a second-tier center of some sort. Atlanta has been proposed several times.
- hnaccy 9y agoI hope they pick Atlanta but I doubt techies want to live in the South.
- macintux 9y agoI'd think the massive calamity known as Atlanta traffic would be more off-putting than "living in the South". I know I'd love to find someplace warmer to live.
- treehau5 9y agoCould try a little bit further up 85
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoWarmer but more humid. The Deep South is definitely air conditioning country.
- mindcrime 9y agoYou don't even have to be in the Deep South to need A/C. I live in North Carolina, which is "South but not Deep South" and I can't imagine living here without A/C.
- squozzer 9y agoYou might change your mind after spending a couple of summers here. ACs run 24/7. But 1" of snow sends everyone home - to clean grocery stores out of milk and bread.
- hnaccy 9y agoJust shove it all in midtown.
- ynniv 9y agoIf you know where you're going to work, it's not difficult to plan where to live to avoid traffic. Not to mention the breakneck pace we're adding midrise housing next to anything that looks mildly interesting.
- bovermyer 9y agoThe Twin Cities are looking at courting Amazon for this. IMO, Minneapolis would be a great location for it. We fit the RFP criteria.
- joelrunyon 9y agoThis would be interesting just for the Amazon vs. Target vs. Best Buy show down.
- 100k 9y agoYeah, the article doesn't address the Twin Cities, but it meets his criteria: - 3.5M metro area population - Very high education levels - Diverse population protected by strong civil rights - Major international airport (Delta hub; 16th largest in the US) - Very affordable - Large business community already (Cargill, Target, Best Buy, major Wells Fargo office, etc.) On the negatives, it is growing slower than other metros and the weather will be a turn off. Honestly, I think Amazon has a pretty good idea of where they want their new HQ to be. They are using this process to extract concessions.
- shemnon42 9y ago> and the weather will be a turn off. Wow, one of the few cities that competes poorly with Seattle weather.
- bitwalker 9y agoThe weather here is beautiful a little more than half the year, but winter here is definitely a hard pill to swallow for those not used to it.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoSeattle weather is actually pretty good. You don't need much AC in the summer (these last couple of weeks being an exception), and it hardly ever gets cold enough to snow in the winter. There is rain, but being able to keep your window open year a.round is great for fresh air at least.
- SEJeff 9y agoSouth of Chicago is suuuuper cheap and has lots of available space.
- 60654 9y agoCity proper - outside of the lakefront - is not prohibitively expensive either. But I'm just weirded out by how the article discounts Chicago based on assumptions about, what, tax policy? Where is this coming from? The Rahm is lobbying hard, and he's very pro-bigcorp, as McDonald's new 500,000 sqft world headquarters in West Loop can attest to. Regardless of where Amazon lands (and I don't really have a horse in that race), Bloomberg's weird hang-up about Chicago are no more than a distraction. It's bad enough that Michael Bloomberg is personally spending $millions on TV ads to support the Cook Cty soda tax in a state where he doesn't even reside. Ugh.
- bharris62 9y agoI know both Nashville and Memphis Tn are making a bid on it. Lots of business moving into Nashville area, and lots of room to expand.
- gist 9y agoArticle in typical fashion [1] confuses what something currently is (a city) with what it could be if they won the bid. One only has to look at Orlando Florida and Walt Disney World as an example of what can happen to a region over time. [1] By a publication looking for page views.
- ecshafer 9y agoI think Philadelphia is a good choice. Center City is a 30 minute drive to Philly international airport. Land is relatively cheap, much cheaper than NYC, Boston, or dc. We have an ivy league school in the city, with another less than an hour away, as well as many other schools in the area. We have a large metro population with a good size technical and business industry already. We also have rail and sea shipping available. and there is also a convenience factor being nearby to NYC and DC both being a hour and a half train ride.
- dkhenry 9y agoI don't understand how Philadelphia is not near the top of the list. The cost of living is way lower then any other top 10 metro area, There is a huge local talent base, and lots of highly ranked feeder schools.
- the_d00d 9y agoWhere are you getting your numbers from? Philadelphia's cost of living is higher than say.... Dallas (And Houston And Austin). Plus DFW metropolitan area is the 4th largest in the US (7.2 million) whereas Philly is 7th (6 million). Sorry..I couldn't resist using Dallas as an example considering it is American Football season. Sources: Cost of living (1) https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Philadelphia%2C+PA&country2=United+States&city2=Dallas%2C+TX https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... Cost of living (2) http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/dallas-tx/philadelphia-pa/75000 http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/dallas-tx/philadelp... Population https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statist...
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoAnd if Amazon attracts enough talent to turn Philly into a tech hub then PA will have all the same "one city runs the show and the rest of the state resents them" dynamic that NY and IL do. It's probably still a win for Philly though.
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- jetblackio 9y agoSeems like Denver would be good choice, considering how alike Seattle and Denver are. There's plenty of hiking, biking, camping, etc in the area, and it's central location is convenient for any travel to both the east and west coast. Denver also has an excellent craft brewery scene. Denver / Boulder are already tech hubs in their own right as well.
- Florin_Andrei 9y agoShouldn't Amazon be more interested in the economic conditions, rather than hiking and biking and the brewery scene?
- bradleyjg 9y agoThey have to be able to get top talent willing to move to whatever city they select.
- jetblackio 9y agoAgreed, and I've personally noticed a lot of people moving out to the Denver / Boulder area. On my team alone we had 3 people from the bay area move out to Colorado. It's an attractive place for tech talent, which certainly wouldn't hurt Amazon's cause.
- scarmig 9y agoTons of sunbelt and non-coastal cities have spent decades optimizing for cheap land and making themselves "business friendly" over all other concerns. They still don't have much of a tech scene or high impact industries. And the same calculus that has prevented a mass migration of tech companies to Boise or Waco is the same calculus that will prevent Amazon from moving there either. My bet is Boulder; the Research Triangle; or Philly.
- santaclaus 9y ago> Boulder Boulder is almost as bad as the bay in terms of vested interests obstructing construction and development.
- joshdance 9y agoSLC might be too 'small' but it growing, has a super strong university system and tons of software engineers.
- drewying 9y agoWhile Salt Lake technically meets the requirements, they do so just barely. The metro area barely cracks a million people, and the airport maybe has 1 or 2 international flights a day. Plus Amazon and the Utah state government still have a lot animosity towards each other from the whole online tax thing. Plus it's really tough to attract out of state talent in Utah. I think Salt Lake would be a very hard sell compared to what Amazon could easily get with Denver.
- pc2g4d 9y agoSLC metro population: 1+ million Including SLC and Utah counties both: 2+ million University of Utah, Brigham Young University, Utah Valley University Substantial tech talent, startup scene. Adobe, EA, Ebay, Microsoft, Oracle all have a presence. And don't forget the NSA. International airport connects to Canada, France, Mexico, Netherlands, UK... but will take two hops to get anywhere else. https://www.slcairport.com/assets/pdfDocuments/Flight-Schedule-Info/International-Destinations-by-Airline-September-2017.pdf https://www.slcairport.com/assets/pdfDocuments/Flight-Schedu... Meetingplace of I-15, I-80, I-84 Culture almost the complete opposite of Seattle's. Mountain Time Zone Killer cost of living Government willing to make substantial concessions to tech companies But... I'm guessing it's just not quite connected enough to be seriously considered.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoI did my undergrad at UW and my grad at UU, I would say the cultures between SLC and Seattle aren't far off, in fact, SLC is the only city I ever knew to have 24 hour coffee shops. Not to mention mountains, hiking, and skiing.
- jordache 9y agoSLC has terrible pollution that is directly correlated with population within the valley. Adding 50K more to the mix in a short amount of time is not a helpful addition
- blaisio 9y agoIt's interesting, because they really need to pick a city that won't have trouble attracting software developers. Some large companies (like Epic) have trouble recruiting and have to pay people way more because they're so far away from normal tech hubs.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 9y agoI think Epic also has trouble recruiting because they work on an outdated stack using an arcane (and often counterintuitive) programming language for an industry that is itself probably a few decades late to any tech (probably for good reason, but the point stands).
- santaclaus 9y ago> Epic The health software company or the peeps who make Unreal?
- sidlls 9y agoEpic doesn't pay very well even for the area. Their problem isn't just location, it's reputation: terrible technology, terrible working conditions, and a possibly dated reputation for a proclivity to hire junior devs and chew them up in a way that would make a AAA game studio envious. They continue along because, like most other places that aren't major tech hubs like SF, Seattle, NY, or Chicago, software developers who decide to settle there simply don't have many alternatives.
- ojbyrne 9y agoI think Toronto came first in their final list for a reason. It's a way to hedge against US immigration policies and also for Jeff Bezos to thumb his nose at Trump.
- chis 9y agoMost of the internal talk I've seen favors Vancouver. It's geographically close (with excellent transportation), is big but still has room to grow. Canada in general is a good choice because they have more lax limmigration policies.
- rainbowmverse 9y agoWhat's the value in having two headquarters a few hours apart?
- notirk 9y agoThe cities are geographically close, but there is an international border between them. Canada has more open immigration laws opening up Amazon to a much wider talent pool. Considering that major difference, there could be a strong case made for having these major offices close by for in person collaboration.
- scj 9y agoWhile we are friendly to immigration, Canadian citizens will need to work there too (in order for government incentives to be doled out)... Otherwise, the public will eventually demand those benefits rescinded. As a ballpark number, if Amazon wants to hire 50k people, I'd imagine they'd need at least 20k Canadians. So I suspect they'll need to convince Canadian programmers to move there. I can't pretend to speak for all Canadian citizens, but given the choice: 1. Move to the most expensive real estate market in the country, where the raise in wages wouldn't account for the price difference in housing costs. To work for an employer with Amazon's reputation towards employees... (that's the most polite way I could put that) 2. Immigrate to SV under a TN visa, with the chance of working on interesting valley projects. Despite both options having a crazy housing market, #2 is much more attractive. The value proposition can be changed though. I'd move in a heartbeat if the same wages were available in Montreal. Same for any Canadian city other than Vancouver and Toronto.
- ojbyrne 9y ago
- scarmig 9y agoI'm just hoping San Jose wins its bid, for no other reason than it'd amuse me.
- hueving 9y agoVegas. Land is cheap, the weather is less miserable than Boston although it is indeed miserable in the summer. A couple of hours from LA and a major airport.
- Jemaclus 9y agoI find it interesting how many of these comments are sales pitches for their chosen cities. I don't have any preferences, since I have no desire to work for Amazon nor do I think my current city of SF is a good choice for reasons laid out in the article. What I'm most interested in, however, is how you get around some of these problems. The article points out a number of issues: Can even Amazon afford to pay 50,000 people on a New York or SF salary? That's going to be (almost) prohibitively expensive. They certainly can pay for a Michigan salary or an Alabama salary, but is the job market there in those places? The Philadelphia example from the beginning points out that while the city is large enough, the job growth hasn't been there for quite some time, implying that there might not be enough people to fill the needed jobs. Could a city like Birmingham, AL or Gary, IN or Lincoln, NE support 50,000 new jobs? Are there enough available homes to house all those people? Parking spaces? What about the support jobs? For every N employees, you need M doctors or dentists or accountants or fast food workers or maids or auto mechanics to support the growing population. Are those jobs there? Are there people qualified to take those jobs? Can the new traffic be handled smoothly? I think the answer is "yes" to the above in the long term, but is Amazon going to put their HQ in an up-and-coming town and just deal with the growing pains in the short term? Or would they rather go to a larger city and skip those problems? What about international airports? That limits it to a dozen or so cities around the country. Can Amazon survive in a place like Nashville, TN? Why or why not? Are there ways to mitigate potential problems of not being able to fly to London or Paris direct? IMO, the potential cities themselves are much less important and much less interesting than the problems that moving a 50,000 person HQ to almost any city would cause.
- skookumchuck 9y agoAmazon's announcement came right on the heels of Seattle enacting an income tax on higher income people. The city government has done a number of other anti-business initiatives and rhetoric. Seattle has been taking Amazon for granted, suddenly the Mayor is taking an interest in Amazon: '“My office will immediately begin conversations with Amazon around their needs with today’s announcement and the company’s long-term plans for Seattle,” Seattle Mayor Ed Murray said in statement Thursday.' http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazons-announcement-of-hq-outside-of-seattle-sends-ripples-through-states-political-circles/ http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazons-announce...
- mindcrime 9y agoAmazon should consider the Triangle (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill) area of NC. There's definitely a strong university presence here, as well as an existing workforce of highly skilled / educated folks working at companies like Red Hat, IBM, Cisco, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Glaxo-Smith-Kline, Microsoft, and the like. The Raleigh metro area population was 2.16 million in 2011 and this is one of the fastest growing areas in the country (or was as of 2015)[1]. The Triangle is also in a sweet spot between beaches to the east, within about a 1.5 hour to 2.5 hour drive, and mountains to the west, within about 4-5 hours. And locally we have lots of outdoor green spaces with plenty of trails for running, hiking, mountain biking, etc. We have major league sports (the NHL Carolina Hurricanes) and minor league baseball (Durham Bulls) and soccer (NC Football Club, formerly the Carolina Railhawks). The local airport has direct flights to Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, London, Paris, New York, Chicago, Atlanta, DC, and Toronto among others. There's a nice nightlife scene here with each of the three "points" of the Triangle being a "college town" (Duke, UNC Chapel Hill, and North Carolina State being the major universities). And if you like music, you can get everything from jazz at Beyu Cafe, to the NC Symphony Orchestra at Meymandi Hall in Raleigh, to black metal / death metal / metalcore / etc. at The Maywood in Raleigh, and all sorts of eclectic shit at the Cat's Cradle in Carrboro. And Trans-Siberian Orchestra always has a stop here at PNC Arena on their winter tour. And that's not even mentioning Motorco and the Durham Performing Arts Center in Durham, or Lincoln Theater or Walnut Creek Ampitheatre in Raleigh. There's plenty of good food to be had here, although admittedly not quite the variety found in Seattle, Chicago, New York or San Francisco, etc. But still you can find a very nice range of options here. Lots of good Thai food in particular. All in all, despite the embarrassing fuckups by our state government over the past couple of years that have made the national news, this really is a nice place to live and work. And the Triangle metro area is really a different world from the rural parts of NC. Yeah, if you go looking, you can find some pretty backwards, uneducated, ignorant people in NC, but the area here is very diverse, educated, cultured, etc. [1]: https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/morning_call/2015/01/forbes-raleigh-is-4th-fastest-growing-city-in-u-s.html https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/morning_call/2015/01/fo...
- marchenko 9y agoA second tier Midwestern(ish) city could be a good option. Cleveland and Pittsburgh would be good choices, assuming the relocation induces more flight availability from CLE and PIT. Case and CMU produce a lot of tech grads, and Cleveland has been successful attracting medical professionals to relocate with its excellent hospital system. The housing stock, CoL, and cultural amenities are excellent. Pittsburgh already has a few bigtech connections and satellite offices. Columbus and Minneapolis would also fit the bill.
- jgalt212 9y agoAtlanta is a great choice for all reasons mentioned by others and such a move would go a long way towards solving tech's diversity problem.
- orteam 9y agoI would bet on Canada, so either Toronto or Montreal. The whole continuity reason for the second HQ needs to address possible political and regulatory disruptions as well. They need the option to flip jurisdiction as a leverage.
- 0x4f3759df 9y agoIf you are thinking long term, consider a large scale war, if China and the US get into a large scale conflict, Toronto might be spared.