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If this is not criminal negligence then I don't know what is. I bet nobody goes to prison for it though. It's funny how individuals can go to prison for rather

If this is not criminal negligence then I don't know what is. I bet nobody goes to prison for it though. It's funny how individuals can go to prison for rather trivial offences that do not harm others. Yet corporations can get away with what basically equates to manslaughter.

burnte 9y ago
Indeed. Corporations are called fictitious entities for a reason, they don't really exist. Send all the people home, and ask a corporation to turn on a lamp, or sell a widget; it can't. We allow their creation because it creates a great deal of convenience to the humans in the business. However, they're still fictitious and the state has the right to dissolve a corporation in some circumstances. Despite this, we seem to have a culture where corporations are given MORE rights than people. We've literally created imaginary monsters that threaten the life and freedom of real human beings.
- aaronblohowiak 9y ago
  "Rip open the diseased heart of a corporation and what spills out?” “People.” (From the second book in the altered carbon series)
  - folago 9y ago
    Very good books, all three of them.
- mtgx 9y ago
  And we haven't even put AI in charge of them yet. Wait until those completely soulless statistics-only driven entities start running them while having more than human rights.
  - rixed 9y ago
    Optimisation algorithms have no hidden agenda and are predictable. Given we agree on the variable they optimise for and can check the source code, what's not to like?
    - nils-m-holm 9y ago
      The people setting the parameters may have hidden agendas. Or even not so hidden ones, like "make me rich at anybody's cost".
      - BoorishBears 9y ago
        I think a much more likely cause would be biased data. If you trained against a dataset of all police stops in my state (CT) to predict which vehicles should be stopped to maximize drug finds you'd include multiple large departments that have been under federal investigation for racial discrimination (and were found guilty). I don't think the hidden agenda would be intentional, but there would be a hidden agenda.
    - acbabis 9y ago
      Those givens are far from trivial, and getting them wrong is dangerous. You may as well say "Given we can perfectly predict the market, it's possible to make a lot of money"
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      First of all, for any non-trivial real-world problem (like e.g. doing a simplest of tasks while respecting human moral values), we do not, generally, agree on the variable (function, actually) being optimized. Nor can we even define it with sufficient amount of precision. This is the core of what's known as "Friendly AI" problem (also known as "AI control problem"). Secondly, optimization algorithms "have no hidden agenta and are predictable" only insofar as you're able to comprehend their implementation. Which, for anything more trivial than blinking an LED, you're most likely not. This is the core of what's known as "programs have bugs" problem in software engineering, and also of the "bugs are exploitable" and "programs can have hidden backdoors" problems in software security engineering.
    - 9y ago
  - burnte 9y ago
    We kind of have in small ways. Look at high frequency trading algorithms, you have companies spending millions of dollars to shave off a millisecond of network latency in order to maximize HFT algos. Then we see things like the Flash Crash of 2010...
- cypherpundit 9y ago
  I like your lamp test, too bad it wasn't part of the Citizens United ruling that made corporations legally people - people with more money than most individuals who can influence legislation more than most individuals.
  - colejohnson66 9y ago
    Corporations have always been people. If corporations weren’t people, you wouldn’t be able to sue them.
d--b 9y ago
With the price hike story though, the public will push for some heads to fall, and prosecution should have the jury on their side for this. I'm willing to take the bet that someone's going to jail for this.
mhandley 9y ago
Seems like a reasonable punishment for such criminal negligence for a corporation would be revocation of the patents protecting their monopoly. A corporation does not deserve a government-sanctioned monopoly if it is negligent in how it uses that monopoly power.
- seanp2k2 9y ago
  I would love it if that ever happened to any company. Sadly,
- speedplane 9y ago
  What I don't understand about this situation, is that the EpiPen is not covered by patents. It's been off patent for a long time. Why aren't other companies stepping in and making a competing product? If it's off patent and they can make the same product for cheaper, then the branded EpiPen sales will decline which will force them to lower their price. There is definitely a market failure here, but it's not clear why.
  - lrem 9y ago
    Patent is only the first part of inertia to overcome here. You need insurance companies to agree to refund your alternative. You need to get doctors to prescribe it. You need to get pharmacies to stock it. You need to get patients to want them. Only one of these groups has any incentive to help you. This is why some countries have enacted laws to help with that.
    - jsymolon 9y ago
      And, laws that don't force the use of brand name drugs. https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/25/mylan-antitrust-epipen-schools/ https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/25/mylan-antitrust-epipen-s...
  - emiliobumachar 9y ago
    http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-drugs-vs-chairs/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-dr... "They keep trying, and the FDA keeps refusing to approve them for human use."
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

burnte 9y ago

Indeed. Corporations are called fictitious entities for a reason, they don't really exist. Send all the people home, and ask a corporation to turn on a lamp, or sell a widget; it can't. We allow their creation because it creates a great deal of convenience to the humans in the business. However, they're still fictitious and the state has the right to dissolve a corporation in some circumstances. Despite this, we seem to have a culture where corporations are given MORE rights than people. We've literally created imaginary monsters that threaten the life and freedom of real human beings.

aaronblohowiak 9y ago
"Rip open the diseased heart of a corporation and what spills out?” “People.” (From the second book in the altered carbon series)
- folago 9y ago
  Very good books, all three of them.
mtgx 9y ago
And we haven't even put AI in charge of them yet. Wait until those completely soulless statistics-only driven entities start running them while having more than human rights.
- rixed 9y ago
  Optimisation algorithms have no hidden agenda and are predictable. Given we agree on the variable they optimise for and can check the source code, what's not to like?
  - nils-m-holm 9y ago
    The people setting the parameters may have hidden agendas. Or even not so hidden ones, like "make me rich at anybody's cost".
    - BoorishBears 9y ago
      I think a much more likely cause would be biased data. If you trained against a dataset of all police stops in my state (CT) to predict which vehicles should be stopped to maximize drug finds you'd include multiple large departments that have been under federal investigation for racial discrimination (and were found guilty). I don't think the hidden agenda would be intentional, but there would be a hidden agenda.
  - acbabis 9y ago
    Those givens are far from trivial, and getting them wrong is dangerous. You may as well say "Given we can perfectly predict the market, it's possible to make a lot of money"
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    First of all, for any non-trivial real-world problem (like e.g. doing a simplest of tasks while respecting human moral values), we do not, generally, agree on the variable (function, actually) being optimized. Nor can we even define it with sufficient amount of precision. This is the core of what's known as "Friendly AI" problem (also known as "AI control problem"). Secondly, optimization algorithms "have no hidden agenta and are predictable" only insofar as you're able to comprehend their implementation. Which, for anything more trivial than blinking an LED, you're most likely not. This is the core of what's known as "programs have bugs" problem in software engineering, and also of the "bugs are exploitable" and "programs can have hidden backdoors" problems in software security engineering.
  - 9y ago
- burnte 9y ago
  We kind of have in small ways. Look at high frequency trading algorithms, you have companies spending millions of dollars to shave off a millisecond of network latency in order to maximize HFT algos. Then we see things like the Flash Crash of 2010...
cypherpundit 9y ago
I like your lamp test, too bad it wasn't part of the Citizens United ruling that made corporations legally people - people with more money than most individuals who can influence legislation more than most individuals.
- colejohnson66 9y ago
  Corporations have always been people. If corporations weren’t people, you wouldn’t be able to sue them.

d--b 9y ago

With the price hike story though, the public will push for some heads to fall, and prosecution should have the jury on their side for this. I'm willing to take the bet that someone's going to jail for this.

mhandley 9y ago

Seems like a reasonable punishment for such criminal negligence for a corporation would be revocation of the patents protecting their monopoly. A corporation does not deserve a government-sanctioned monopoly if it is negligent in how it uses that monopoly power.

seanp2k2 9y ago
I would love it if that ever happened to any company. Sadly,
speedplane 9y ago
What I don't understand about this situation, is that the EpiPen is not covered by patents. It's been off patent for a long time. Why aren't other companies stepping in and making a competing product? If it's off patent and they can make the same product for cheaper, then the branded EpiPen sales will decline which will force them to lower their price. There is definitely a market failure here, but it's not clear why.
- lrem 9y ago
  Patent is only the first part of inertia to overcome here. You need insurance companies to agree to refund your alternative. You need to get doctors to prescribe it. You need to get pharmacies to stock it. You need to get patients to want them. Only one of these groups has any incentive to help you. This is why some countries have enacted laws to help with that.
  - jsymolon 9y ago
    And, laws that don't force the use of brand name drugs. https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/25/mylan-antitrust-epipen-schools/ https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/25/mylan-antitrust-epipen-s...
- emiliobumachar 9y ago
  http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-drugs-vs-chairs/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-dr... "They keep trying, and the FDA keeps refusing to approve them for human use."

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]