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It's interesting how this forum seems to react so robotically to things that adversely affect the lower class. Yes, it is good that it looks like people will sp

It's interesting how this forum seems to react so robotically to things that adversely affect the lower class. Yes, it is good that it looks like people will spend less money on something that might have a very poor roi depending on your circumstances. No it is not okay, that the lower class was duped into believing they needed a piece of paper to be financially secure in life and that many went so far as to get literal pieces of paper from diploma mills that only shows that they were duped. It is not okay that they are in debt for substantial amounts of money they can't get out of. Or let me put it another way. It's like a massive hurricane just ended and you said: "That's fine, that's how it should ideally be. The hurricane lost its energy for some reason that is intrinsic to hurricanes losing their energy." I hope that this doesn't sound too emotionally charged as I have some very close friends that act robotically to just about everything.

Moshe_Silnorin 9y ago
Empathy breeds terrible policy.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Empathy and compassion are mandatory for sound policy. Edit because of HN throttling: I haven't seen unsavory elected folks generate sound policy yet, so I'm sticking to my statement.
  - guelo 9y ago
    The politics of being outright evil assholes has gained a lot of traction lately.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Maybe just compassion: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/02/paul_bloom_on_e.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/02/paul_bloom_on_e.htm...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- lovich 9y ago
  If you don't have empathy then the best course of action for policy makers is whatever gets them the most power without getting kicked out of office. While current politics around the globe look more and more like they are following that path, let's not confuse what's actually happening with what is actually good
- dang 9y ago
  Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN?
- pizza 9y ago
  Is it consistent to want the best public policy for everyone, but also blame empathy for the creation of terrible policy?
tepe1 9y ago
HN is a very carefully controlled bubble. It's almost completely dominated by a crypto-libertarian groupthink. The article [1] is interesting though. What we're witnessing is the complete self-exile of Republicans from the mainstream. Republicans have lost all faith in mainstream media [2], they have lost all faith in experts, they have lost all faith in science, they have lost all faith in America's major democratic institutions [3], they have lost all trust in the world's biggest corporations, and now they have lost all trust in higher education [4]. That's pretty much everything. Here's a significant chunk of the country that has retreated completely into a paranoid fantasy. It's absolutely remarkable. I don't think anything list this scale of mass delusion has been seen in the West since the Nazis. There are no longer any institutions that might meaningfully engage with these people; they reject anything and everything that does not absolutely conform to the Party Agenda. Without any kind of shared reality -- this group has sincerely adopted a platform of "alternative facts" and nonsense conspiracy theory -- no dialogue or compromise is possible. The full impact of this is probably still coming. This sort of complete disconnect reality always leads to complete disaster. The Nazis truly believed they could conquer the world. The Soviets were absolutely convinced that the capitalist West was going to crumble any second. Reality has a way of biting back and forcefully asserting itself no matter how hard you deny it. [1] http://www.cetusnews.com/life/Americans-Losing-Faith-in-College-Degrees--Poll-Finds-.rJg5RE9CF-.html http://www.cetusnews.com/life/Americans-Losing-Faith-in-Coll... [2] http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media... [3] http://www.npr.org/2017/06/29/534835094/political-controversies-drive-a-wedge-between-texas-gop-and-the-fbi http://www.npr.org/2017/06/29/534835094/political-controvers...
vacri 9y ago
It's not that 'the poors were duped'. It's that until very recently, a piece of paper was a very effective salary multiplier.
- rxhernandez 9y ago
  Define very recently and effective for whom. University of Phoenix has been around since 1976 and has been popular with people who didn't have the resources to get into traditional colleges since at least the late 90s. I think with nearly 17 years of success and probably millions of for profit alumni can safely be defined as duped.
  - lsc 9y ago
    I'm not saying anyone should go to the university of phoenix; there are better publicly subsidized options out today, but I do know a handful of people who were partly educated there, who did just fine.
anovikov 9y ago
Well in stable market conditions, the tail of the group of people who get diplomas, ranged by their ROI, will get somewhat negative overall ROI. That's how it should be - i.e. most people - the smarter ones for who education makes sense, get positive ROI, and some relatively small group of people who can't really benefit from education but have fooled themselves into thinking they can, get zero or slightly negative ones. Then comes a group of people who clearly can't benefit and know it. The system reached a stable state - colleges get maximum number of clients they possibly can and get max revenue, it doesn't make sense for many more people to join in, and it doesn't make sense for many existing to stay if prices go further up. As with oil production for example (see 'marginal barrel') people at the end of this tail don't really benefit, but the system in general is still good, most people benefit.
90s-socal-kid 9y ago
I appreciate your comment. I've a few questions to help me understand your perspective. Is the crux of the issue the fact that lower socioeconomic groups are less able to rebound from a financial impact? Or something more specific about targeting lower s.e. groups?

Moshe_Silnorin 9y ago

Empathy breeds terrible policy.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Empathy and compassion are mandatory for sound policy. Edit because of HN throttling: I haven't seen unsavory elected folks generate sound policy yet, so I'm sticking to my statement.
- guelo 9y ago
  The politics of being outright evil assholes has gained a lot of traction lately.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Maybe just compassion: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/02/paul_bloom_on_e.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/02/paul_bloom_on_e.htm...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
lovich 9y ago
If you don't have empathy then the best course of action for policy makers is whatever gets them the most power without getting kicked out of office. While current politics around the globe look more and more like they are following that path, let's not confuse what's actually happening with what is actually good
dang 9y ago
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN?
pizza 9y ago
Is it consistent to want the best public policy for everyone, but also blame empathy for the creation of terrible policy?

tepe1 9y ago

HN is a very carefully controlled bubble. It's almost completely dominated by a crypto-libertarian groupthink. The article [1] is interesting though. What we're witnessing is the complete self-exile of Republicans from the mainstream. Republicans have lost all faith in mainstream media [2], they have lost all faith in experts, they have lost all faith in science, they have lost all faith in America's major democratic institutions [3], they have lost all trust in the world's biggest corporations, and now they have lost all trust in higher education [4]. That's pretty much everything. Here's a significant chunk of the country that has retreated completely into a paranoid fantasy. It's absolutely remarkable. I don't think anything list this scale of mass delusion has been seen in the West since the Nazis. There are no longer any institutions that might meaningfully engage with these people; they reject anything and everything that does not absolutely conform to the Party Agenda. Without any kind of shared reality -- this group has sincerely adopted a platform of "alternative facts" and nonsense conspiracy theory -- no dialogue or compromise is possible. The full impact of this is probably still coming. This sort of complete disconnect reality always leads to complete disaster. The Nazis truly believed they could conquer the world. The Soviets were absolutely convinced that the capitalist West was going to crumble any second. Reality has a way of biting back and forcefully asserting itself no matter how hard you deny it. [1] http://www.cetusnews.com/life/Americans-Losing-Faith-in-College-Degrees--Poll-Finds-.rJg5RE9CF-.html http://www.cetusnews.com/life/Americans-Losing-Faith-in-Coll... [2] http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media... [3] http://www.npr.org/2017/06/29/534835094/political-controversies-drive-a-wedge-between-texas-gop-and-the-fbi http://www.npr.org/2017/06/29/534835094/political-controvers...

vacri 9y ago

It's not that 'the poors were duped'. It's that until very recently, a piece of paper was a very effective salary multiplier.

rxhernandez 9y ago
Define very recently and effective for whom. University of Phoenix has been around since 1976 and has been popular with people who didn't have the resources to get into traditional colleges since at least the late 90s. I think with nearly 17 years of success and probably millions of for profit alumni can safely be defined as duped.
- lsc 9y ago
  I'm not saying anyone should go to the university of phoenix; there are better publicly subsidized options out today, but I do know a handful of people who were partly educated there, who did just fine.

anovikov 9y ago

Well in stable market conditions, the tail of the group of people who get diplomas, ranged by their ROI, will get somewhat negative overall ROI. That's how it should be - i.e. most people - the smarter ones for who education makes sense, get positive ROI, and some relatively small group of people who can't really benefit from education but have fooled themselves into thinking they can, get zero or slightly negative ones. Then comes a group of people who clearly can't benefit and know it. The system reached a stable state - colleges get maximum number of clients they possibly can and get max revenue, it doesn't make sense for many more people to join in, and it doesn't make sense for many existing to stay if prices go further up. As with oil production for example (see 'marginal barrel') people at the end of this tail don't really benefit, but the system in general is still good, most people benefit.

90s-socal-kid 9y ago

I appreciate your comment. I've a few questions to help me understand your perspective. Is the crux of the issue the fact that lower socioeconomic groups are less able to rebound from a financial impact? Or something more specific about targeting lower s.e. groups?