8 ms·

And anyone wonders why the USA does not have money for healthcare, higher education, high speed rail, etc. etc. I am in West Africa and everyone continually as

by grecy 9y ago

And anyone wonders why the USA does not have money for healthcare, higher education, high speed rail, etc. etc. I am in West Africa and everyone continually asks about the corruption. At least here it's up front and honest. The guy with the AK-47 just wants $5. In the USA, it's the guys in suits getting billions.

adventured 9y ago
Since when does the US not have money for healthcare and higher education? We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth. We don't have money for high speed rail? Sure we do, we spend $7 trillion per year on government - 37% of our economy goes to government. Pick your priorities.
- esMazer 9y ago
  "We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth." this is very true regarding healthcare. That we have a very bad healthcare system specially compared to other nations that spend way less is a completely different matter.
- grecy 9y ago
  > We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth. Why are there tens of millions that can't afford higher education? Why are people going bankrupt from health expenses? The USA is just really bad at it. Therefore you need to spend more money just to come up to par with other developed countries. In that case, you need more tax revenue.
  - nugget 9y ago
    > Why are there tens of millions that can't afford higher education? Tuition at the highly-rated community college near my house is $1,500 per semester. It's expensive to go away to a residential 4 year private university, but there are many other options out there.
    - tinduck 9y ago
      Except the federal government pumps money into those AAU universities in research grants, therefore they are more prestigious and have better job prospects after you graduate. The system is stupid. But it won't change. You won't see the public university in Memphis or Baltimore get more money federal money than a school like Stanford.
  - adrianmonk 9y ago
    Or just stop being really bad at it. Other countries are doing it, so it isn't an unsolvable problem.
- daveFNbuck 9y ago
  The whole point of the comment you're replying to is that we're picking our priorities poorly.
- sidlls 9y ago
  And a significant portion of that 37% goes straight into the pockets of connected contracting companies, especially DoD related ones. Usually staffed by people who constantly rant against how inefficient and evil government is.
  - kamaal 9y ago
    Which is to keep you safe. Keep the US's dominance in Military, economy and high value technology going. Plus food turns out to be cheap because you get oil for a pretty affordable price. And that happens to be possible thanks to wars and associated expenditure.
euyyn 9y ago
I mean, if you don't like the tax cuts your city government offers Amazon to try and get their headquarter, you can vote them out come the next election.
- BatFastard 9y ago
  But as happened in Marietta Ga recently, the government officials had already committed the county to 600 million for a new stadium. They got voted out, but the county is still stuck with the bill.
  - athenot 9y ago
    Nitpick: it was Cobb County. But yeah the damage was done regardless, and now the county is left trying to find ways to pay for what it committed to, by increasing taxes and/or poaching money from other services like public schools.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    Yeah not saying it's perfect. But it's better than those people staying in power, and with the AK-47s.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  No, you can't; deals involving this much money are beyond local politics. For example, Washington's governor just vetoed a measure that would extend state tax cuts to manufacturing companies that aren't called Boeing, and he's not going anywhere. And even if people do complain, all your mayor/city council has to do to win re-election is claim that all the jobs would disappear if they didn't offer the incentives. You can't do anything about this, it's just blatant corruption endemic to the system.
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  I'm not arguing for a ban, but here would be the argument: It's clearly unethical, undesirable behavior, but even if a particular municipality didn't like the game, it's tough not to play (much like taking corporate donations for political campaigns). So instead of trying to live the libertarian good life of "Our city is better than that" and losing because someone else has fewer scruples, it is proposed that the practice be banned.
chrishacken 9y ago
The thing is, those tax cuts are largely offset by income taxes that those employees bring in, along with all of the $ that having a huge corporation like Amazon would bring into the area. It's not corruption, it's business.
- nkassis 9y ago
  Has this been shown to be true? I get the logic and it seems like it would make sense but I'm sure this has been researched. This would be a bigger deal than the datacenters being built with millions in tax cuts given it would be a long term and order of magnitude more jobs. Still I wonder if the calculus really does work out.
- grecy 9y ago
  No. Those tax cuts should be added ON TOP of the income taxes those employees bring in. More business should be more tax revenue = better services for the citizens. >It's not corruption, it's business. When a business is able to make a deal that gets them out of paying taxes they otherwise would legally be required to pay, that's corruption. Sugar coat it all you want, it's regular citizens they are stealing from.
  - kemiller 9y ago
    Unless money is being funneled into private politicians’ hands, it’s not corruption. The choice is between amazon + tax breaks and nothing. These cities clearly believe that they’re better off, net net, with Amazon and they’re probably right. This is not at all the same as accepting bribes. There are certainly bad deals out there, but mismanagement is not the same as corruption. Now if you can show that the politicians in question are getting kickbacks, that’s another matter.
    - williamsmj 9y ago
      You say "the choice is between amazon + tax breaks and nothing" like the legal and cultural framework in which these processes take place is a force of nature. The choice is between those things because Amazon says so, and government chooses not to stand up to them by refusing to cooperate country-wide, or passing federal legislation. Amazon is not an outlier here: this is how all deals of this size in the United States get done. It's a national embarrassment. It doesn't have to be that way, and it isn't in many other countries.
novaleaf 9y ago
sorry but if i have to choose between a guy with an AK47 demanding $5 from me, and a shadowy power pulling the strings of a vibrant economy to extract 10% of my income, I know what I'd choose.
- bitJericho 9y ago
  You'd choose the dishonest route and live a lie. Got it.
- choward 9y ago
  For me it's the AK-47 for sure.
  - XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
    Have you been coerced to give someone money or property under the threat of violence?
    - sangnoir 9y ago
      I have. I'm guessing you haven't since you think it's a bigger deal than it is - or at least was for me. It's not scary; these guys have practiced this 'sales funnel' hundreds of times, it is in their interest for things to go smoothly. You'll be fine, unless you decide to be "difficult".
JBlue42 9y ago
Funny, that's what an Afghani co-worker and I talked about during the last election cycle. We just obfuscate things with lawyers.
plandis 9y ago
It might be morally questionable but isn't Amazon doing what you're describing? Most companies shopping around don't publically announce their plans to move in exchange for tax breaks. Amazon, OTOH, is explicitly calling this out.
- angstrom 9y ago
  Of course the argument is also the employees are paying taxes. Besides, Amazon is notorious for pouring money back into the business and growing instead of reaping profits, so good luck taxing that. By any account that's exactly what a city should want.

by grecy 9y ago

adventured 9y ago

Since when does the US not have money for healthcare and higher education? We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth. We don't have money for high speed rail? Sure we do, we spend $7 trillion per year on government - 37% of our economy goes to government. Pick your priorities.

esMazer 9y ago
"We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth." this is very true regarding healthcare. That we have a very bad healthcare system specially compared to other nations that spend way less is a completely different matter.
grecy 9y ago
> We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth. Why are there tens of millions that can't afford higher education? Why are people going bankrupt from health expenses? The USA is just really bad at it. Therefore you need to spend more money just to come up to par with other developed countries. In that case, you need more tax revenue.
- nugget 9y ago
  > Why are there tens of millions that can't afford higher education? Tuition at the highly-rated community college near my house is $1,500 per semester. It's expensive to go away to a residential 4 year private university, but there are many other options out there.
  - tinduck 9y ago
    Except the federal government pumps money into those AAU universities in research grants, therefore they are more prestigious and have better job prospects after you graduate. The system is stupid. But it won't change. You won't see the public university in Memphis or Baltimore get more money federal money than a school like Stanford.
- adrianmonk 9y ago
  Or just stop being really bad at it. Other countries are doing it, so it isn't an unsolvable problem.
daveFNbuck 9y ago
The whole point of the comment you're replying to is that we're picking our priorities poorly.
sidlls 9y ago
And a significant portion of that 37% goes straight into the pockets of connected contracting companies, especially DoD related ones. Usually staffed by people who constantly rant against how inefficient and evil government is.
- kamaal 9y ago
  Which is to keep you safe. Keep the US's dominance in Military, economy and high value technology going. Plus food turns out to be cheap because you get oil for a pretty affordable price. And that happens to be possible thanks to wars and associated expenditure.

euyyn 9y ago

I mean, if you don't like the tax cuts your city government offers Amazon to try and get their headquarter, you can vote them out come the next election.

BatFastard 9y ago
But as happened in Marietta Ga recently, the government officials had already committed the county to 600 million for a new stadium. They got voted out, but the county is still stuck with the bill.
- athenot 9y ago
  Nitpick: it was Cobb County. But yeah the damage was done regardless, and now the county is left trying to find ways to pay for what it committed to, by increasing taxes and/or poaching money from other services like public schools.
- euyyn 9y ago
  Yeah not saying it's perfect. But it's better than those people staying in power, and with the AK-47s.
leggomylibro 9y ago
No, you can't; deals involving this much money are beyond local politics. For example, Washington's governor just vetoed a measure that would extend state tax cuts to manufacturing companies that aren't called Boeing, and he's not going anywhere. And even if people do complain, all your mayor/city council has to do to win re-election is claim that all the jobs would disappear if they didn't offer the incentives. You can't do anything about this, it's just blatant corruption endemic to the system.
unethical_ban 9y ago
I'm not arguing for a ban, but here would be the argument: It's clearly unethical, undesirable behavior, but even if a particular municipality didn't like the game, it's tough not to play (much like taking corporate donations for political campaigns). So instead of trying to live the libertarian good life of "Our city is better than that" and losing because someone else has fewer scruples, it is proposed that the practice be banned.

chrishacken 9y ago

The thing is, those tax cuts are largely offset by income taxes that those employees bring in, along with all of the $ that having a huge corporation like Amazon would bring into the area. It's not corruption, it's business.

nkassis 9y ago
Has this been shown to be true? I get the logic and it seems like it would make sense but I'm sure this has been researched. This would be a bigger deal than the datacenters being built with millions in tax cuts given it would be a long term and order of magnitude more jobs. Still I wonder if the calculus really does work out.
grecy 9y ago
No. Those tax cuts should be added ON TOP of the income taxes those employees bring in. More business should be more tax revenue = better services for the citizens. >It's not corruption, it's business. When a business is able to make a deal that gets them out of paying taxes they otherwise would legally be required to pay, that's corruption. Sugar coat it all you want, it's regular citizens they are stealing from.
- kemiller 9y ago
  Unless money is being funneled into private politicians’ hands, it’s not corruption. The choice is between amazon + tax breaks and nothing. These cities clearly believe that they’re better off, net net, with Amazon and they’re probably right. This is not at all the same as accepting bribes. There are certainly bad deals out there, but mismanagement is not the same as corruption. Now if you can show that the politicians in question are getting kickbacks, that’s another matter.
  - williamsmj 9y ago
    You say "the choice is between amazon + tax breaks and nothing" like the legal and cultural framework in which these processes take place is a force of nature. The choice is between those things because Amazon says so, and government chooses not to stand up to them by refusing to cooperate country-wide, or passing federal legislation. Amazon is not an outlier here: this is how all deals of this size in the United States get done. It's a national embarrassment. It doesn't have to be that way, and it isn't in many other countries.

novaleaf 9y ago

sorry but if i have to choose between a guy with an AK47 demanding $5 from me, and a shadowy power pulling the strings of a vibrant economy to extract 10% of my income, I know what I'd choose.

bitJericho 9y ago
You'd choose the dishonest route and live a lie. Got it.
choward 9y ago
For me it's the AK-47 for sure.
- XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
  Have you been coerced to give someone money or property under the threat of violence?
  - sangnoir 9y ago
    I have. I'm guessing you haven't since you think it's a bigger deal than it is - or at least was for me. It's not scary; these guys have practiced this 'sales funnel' hundreds of times, it is in their interest for things to go smoothly. You'll be fine, unless you decide to be "difficult".

JBlue42 9y ago

Funny, that's what an Afghani co-worker and I talked about during the last election cycle. We just obfuscate things with lawyers.

plandis 9y ago

It might be morally questionable but isn't Amazon doing what you're describing? Most companies shopping around don't publically announce their plans to move in exchange for tax breaks. Amazon, OTOH, is explicitly calling this out.

angstrom 9y ago
Of course the argument is also the employees are paying taxes. Besides, Amazon is notorious for pouring money back into the business and growing instead of reaping profits, so good luck taxing that. By any account that's exactly what a city should want.