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The RFP is rather more interesting than the marketing page: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything/test/images/usa/RFP_3._V516043504_.pdf

The RFP is rather more interesting than the marketing page: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything/test/images/usa/RFP_3._V516043504_.pdf https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything... The 2nd criterion is basically the total amount of sweet, sweet taxpayer dollars available to subsidize them: Please provide a summary of total incentives offered for the Project by the state/province and local community. In this summary, please provide a brief description of the incentive item, the timing of incentive payment/realization, and a calculation of the incentive amount.

outoftacos 9y ago
So boldly demanding massive amounts of corporate welfare is not only considered acceptable, but just done out in the open like this by one of the most massive and powerful corporations of all time. Nobody even pretends like there is any other option any more. It's disgusting. When are the employees of these companies going to start calling bullshit on this? Apparently nobody else will.
dajohnson89 9y ago
Yeah, shocking huh? This is the only reason this whole thing is being done. It's basically a solicitation, and Amazon will go to the highest bidder. It happens all the time, it's just that this initiative is more public.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
brudgers 9y ago
Amazon was built upon the competitive edge of pricing devoid of state and local sales tax. Now it is soliciting tax breaks from state and local governments.
- uiri 9y ago
  That's not quite true. Washington state (where Seattle is) has no state income tax. The sales tax rate, however, is a whopping 9.5%. As a mail order/online retailer, Amazon only had to charge sales tax on in-state purchases. Washington state's low population made it more favourable relative to California with a much less worse tax structure, and Texas and Florida which also have no state income tax and the population centers necessary to support a growing business. Of course, I'm sure Microsoft's established engineering talent pool helped too.
dforrestwilson 9y ago
This is exemplary of the type of sway which massively concentrated enterprises can have over governments, and will continue to have as more and more companies engage in M&A: http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Brennan2016.pdf http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Brennan2016.pdf Replace HRC with Jeff Bezos and "algorithm" with "consumer": https://busy.org/life/@blakemiles84/clinton-book-excerptish-the-cattle-rustler https://busy.org/life/@blakemiles84/clinton-book-excerptish-... At some point we're going to have to Bust the Trusts.
- arcanus 9y ago
  Teddy Roosevelt, where for out thou? The trend, barring an exceptional individual, is for power to consolidate further in the hands of the megacorps.
  - teddyh 9y ago
    > where for out thou? Note: that’s a misuse of the quote; “wherefore” is, in moderns words, translated into “why”, not “where”. The quote “O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?” asks, in essence, “Why are you Romeo, and not someone else?”, i.e. someone without political baggage.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
the_watcher 9y ago
Yea, this is pretty clearly an RFP directed at politicians soliciting taxpayer money. That said, if given the choice between my city ponying up for a stadium (or datacenter that will support 50 total jobs) and an actual Amazon HQ that's comparable to Seattle, I know which way I'd lean. Unfortunately, a big reason politicians go for these kinds of proposals is that they sound great as "accomplishments" in stump speeches. Maybe its my cynicism, but my assumption is that most politicians go for these proposals, and at least this could actually support jobs long term.
- BatFastard 9y ago
  Totally agree! 50,000 people making 100k+ per year is a lot of taxes, it will increase land values. Please come to my city so my house can double in value. Hm...
  - notfromhere 9y ago
    I'm hoping not, because I'm enjoying cheap rent in a metropolitan city (Chicago). I don't want to compete for rent with even more technies than already exist with, esp. when Amazon is going to pay above market wages.
    - BatFastard 9y ago
      Chicago would be another good candidate.
      - notfromhere 9y ago
        I think its one of the top ones, though i'm struggling to thikn of an area of the city that has 100 acres of greenfield to develop
      - johan_larson 9y ago
        Isn't Chicago's municipal government spectacularly dysfunctional?
grecy 9y ago
And anyone wonders why the USA does not have money for healthcare, higher education, high speed rail, etc. etc. I am in West Africa and everyone continually asks about the corruption. At least here it's up front and honest. The guy with the AK-47 just wants $5. In the USA, it's the guys in suits getting billions.
- adventured 9y ago
  Since when does the US not have money for healthcare and higher education? We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth. We don't have money for high speed rail? Sure we do, we spend $7 trillion per year on government - 37% of our economy goes to government. Pick your priorities.
  - esMazer 9y ago
    "We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth." this is very true regarding healthcare. That we have a very bad healthcare system specially compared to other nations that spend way less is a completely different matter.
  - grecy 9y ago
    > We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth. Why are there tens of millions that can't afford higher education? Why are people going bankrupt from health expenses? The USA is just really bad at it. Therefore you need to spend more money just to come up to par with other developed countries. In that case, you need more tax revenue.
    - nugget 9y ago
      > Why are there tens of millions that can't afford higher education? Tuition at the highly-rated community college near my house is $1,500 per semester. It's expensive to go away to a residential 4 year private university, but there are many other options out there.
      - 9y ago
csomar 9y ago
This kind of tax cuts should be illegal. The problem is that taxation itself is some kind of extortion from the state. So morally speaking it is a bankrupt system from all sides.
nether 9y ago
Does it matter if the economic benefit of Amazon's presence in a city outweighs the initial tax breaks?
pkulak 9y ago
A tax break to a company that otherwise wouldn't be there at all is a lot different than a straight-up bribe.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  How is it different? "If you want our business, pay up."
  - pkulak 9y ago
    "If you want our business, charge us less."
rdslw 9y ago
what a year do I live in that governments must bow to corpos and politely submit RFP document asking for tax money .... reduction. There was once a story on hackersnews why this (demanding tax cuts) its unethical on much larger scale than race etc. It went like this (forgive my memory, english, and feel free to correct it): There were two states, neighboring, with similar budgets and number of people. They werent rich, there werent many benefits for citizens in each state, yet people managed to get by. Then one day, a company came to them and asked, who can give me corpotax subsidy ? I'll build a factory there and employ maaaany people. State A objected, while state B agreed. That was a 10 years deal. A lot of people from State A migrated to state B in search of work. 5 years into the deal, company thrived: no taxes to be paid = most competitors in both states are killed. Company is building another factory. Again asking both states of tax subsidy. This time, due to loss of population, being on verge of collapse, state A had to offer super deal. Company built second factory there. The pendulum is swinging the other direction. The rest of the cycle is left for the reader. Because population is relatively constant, allowing this shenanigans is effectively allowing corpos to be tax free at the expense of states^H^H^H citizens. Because states or nations are WE, and asking for such reduction is a zero sum game. This gains of capital because of amazon HQ2 WILL HAPPEN no matter what or where. Asking for tax deduction is abuse and effectively reducing total citizenhood wellness/capital in benefit of Amazon, payed by all other states where HQ2 is not built. The best policy for all states and cities in USA is saying: no matter who will you choose, we will NOT give you a subsidy. And if you want to talk about offshore outsourcing, let me rephrase it: all countries in the world should show the A a middle finger in unison.
- all_blue_chucks 9y ago
  This has been going on forever. It is a natural consequence of free people acting in their own best interests. Giving an employer $1Bn in tax breaks knowing you will get more than $10Bn in increased tax revenue is good for the government and good for the employer. Is it fair? No. But liberalism doesn't aim to make the world fair; it aims to make it free.
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    The bidders are also free to mention to Amazon that they were thinking of increasing the funding for their local anti-trust investigations, and maybe those funds wouldn't be available if they had to be spent on infrastructure improvements related to significant new construction in the area instead. Ask for a bribe; get a threat. If a city can afford to blow a few million on tax breaks to get more millions in economic development, it can afford to blow a few hundred thousand on lawyers to get something in fines or settlements.
tormeh 9y ago
The US could just do what the EU does and ban sweetheart tax deals. Such tax deals are anti-small-company/unfair and it's a race to the bottom that no one will win.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  Consumers, employers and investors would win. What are you talking about.
  - Pxtl 9y ago
    He means targeted deals for specific companies. That means that other employers of other companies lose out from unfair competition, which leads to monopoly that is bad for consumers. Investors win, but not as well as they'd win in a fair competitive market.

outoftacos 9y ago

So boldly demanding massive amounts of corporate welfare is not only considered acceptable, but just done out in the open like this by one of the most massive and powerful corporations of all time. Nobody even pretends like there is any other option any more. It's disgusting. When are the employees of these companies going to start calling bullshit on this? Apparently nobody else will.

dajohnson89 9y ago

Yeah, shocking huh? This is the only reason this whole thing is being done. It's basically a solicitation, and Amazon will go to the highest bidder. It happens all the time, it's just that this initiative is more public.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

brudgers 9y ago

Amazon was built upon the competitive edge of pricing devoid of state and local sales tax. Now it is soliciting tax breaks from state and local governments.

uiri 9y ago
That's not quite true. Washington state (where Seattle is) has no state income tax. The sales tax rate, however, is a whopping 9.5%. As a mail order/online retailer, Amazon only had to charge sales tax on in-state purchases. Washington state's low population made it more favourable relative to California with a much less worse tax structure, and Texas and Florida which also have no state income tax and the population centers necessary to support a growing business. Of course, I'm sure Microsoft's established engineering talent pool helped too.

dforrestwilson 9y ago

This is exemplary of the type of sway which massively concentrated enterprises can have over governments, and will continue to have as more and more companies engage in M&A: http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Brennan2016.pdf http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Brennan2016.pdf Replace HRC with Jeff Bezos and "algorithm" with "consumer": https://busy.org/life/@blakemiles84/clinton-book-excerptish-the-cattle-rustler https://busy.org/life/@blakemiles84/clinton-book-excerptish-... At some point we're going to have to Bust the Trusts.

arcanus 9y ago
Teddy Roosevelt, where for out thou? The trend, barring an exceptional individual, is for power to consolidate further in the hands of the megacorps.
- teddyh 9y ago
  > where for out thou? Note: that’s a misuse of the quote; “wherefore” is, in moderns words, translated into “why”, not “where”. The quote “O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?” asks, in essence, “Why are you Romeo, and not someone else?”, i.e. someone without political baggage.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

the_watcher 9y ago

Yea, this is pretty clearly an RFP directed at politicians soliciting taxpayer money. That said, if given the choice between my city ponying up for a stadium (or datacenter that will support 50 total jobs) and an actual Amazon HQ that's comparable to Seattle, I know which way I'd lean. Unfortunately, a big reason politicians go for these kinds of proposals is that they sound great as "accomplishments" in stump speeches. Maybe its my cynicism, but my assumption is that most politicians go for these proposals, and at least this could actually support jobs long term.

BatFastard 9y ago
Totally agree! 50,000 people making 100k+ per year is a lot of taxes, it will increase land values. Please come to my city so my house can double in value. Hm...
- notfromhere 9y ago
  I'm hoping not, because I'm enjoying cheap rent in a metropolitan city (Chicago). I don't want to compete for rent with even more technies than already exist with, esp. when Amazon is going to pay above market wages.
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    Chicago would be another good candidate.
    - notfromhere 9y ago
      I think its one of the top ones, though i'm struggling to thikn of an area of the city that has 100 acres of greenfield to develop
    - johan_larson 9y ago
      Isn't Chicago's municipal government spectacularly dysfunctional?

grecy 9y ago

And anyone wonders why the USA does not have money for healthcare, higher education, high speed rail, etc. etc. I am in West Africa and everyone continually asks about the corruption. At least here it's up front and honest. The guy with the AK-47 just wants $5. In the USA, it's the guys in suits getting billions.

adventured 9y ago
Since when does the US not have money for healthcare and higher education? We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth. We don't have money for high speed rail? Sure we do, we spend $7 trillion per year on government - 37% of our economy goes to government. Pick your priorities.
- esMazer 9y ago
  "We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth." this is very true regarding healthcare. That we have a very bad healthcare system specially compared to other nations that spend way less is a completely different matter.
- grecy 9y ago
  > We spend more on both per capita than any other nation on earth. Why are there tens of millions that can't afford higher education? Why are people going bankrupt from health expenses? The USA is just really bad at it. Therefore you need to spend more money just to come up to par with other developed countries. In that case, you need more tax revenue.
  - nugget 9y ago
    > Why are there tens of millions that can't afford higher education? Tuition at the highly-rated community college near my house is $1,500 per semester. It's expensive to go away to a residential 4 year private university, but there are many other options out there.
    - 9y ago

csomar 9y ago

This kind of tax cuts should be illegal. The problem is that taxation itself is some kind of extortion from the state. So morally speaking it is a bankrupt system from all sides.

nether 9y ago

Does it matter if the economic benefit of Amazon's presence in a city outweighs the initial tax breaks?

pkulak 9y ago

A tax break to a company that otherwise wouldn't be there at all is a lot different than a straight-up bribe.

ceejayoz 9y ago
How is it different? "If you want our business, pay up."
- pkulak 9y ago
  "If you want our business, charge us less."

rdslw 9y ago

what a year do I live in that governments must bow to corpos and politely submit RFP document asking for tax money .... reduction. There was once a story on hackersnews why this (demanding tax cuts) its unethical on much larger scale than race etc. It went like this (forgive my memory, english, and feel free to correct it): There were two states, neighboring, with similar budgets and number of people. They werent rich, there werent many benefits for citizens in each state, yet people managed to get by. Then one day, a company came to them and asked, who can give me corpotax subsidy ? I'll build a factory there and employ maaaany people. State A objected, while state B agreed. That was a 10 years deal. A lot of people from State A migrated to state B in search of work. 5 years into the deal, company thrived: no taxes to be paid = most competitors in both states are killed. Company is building another factory. Again asking both states of tax subsidy. This time, due to loss of population, being on verge of collapse, state A had to offer super deal. Company built second factory there. The pendulum is swinging the other direction. The rest of the cycle is left for the reader. Because population is relatively constant, allowing this shenanigans is effectively allowing corpos to be tax free at the expense of states^H^H^H citizens. Because states or nations are WE, and asking for such reduction is a zero sum game. This gains of capital because of amazon HQ2 WILL HAPPEN no matter what or where. Asking for tax deduction is abuse and effectively reducing total citizenhood wellness/capital in benefit of Amazon, payed by all other states where HQ2 is not built. The best policy for all states and cities in USA is saying: no matter who will you choose, we will NOT give you a subsidy. And if you want to talk about offshore outsourcing, let me rephrase it: all countries in the world should show the A a middle finger in unison.

all_blue_chucks 9y ago
This has been going on forever. It is a natural consequence of free people acting in their own best interests. Giving an employer $1Bn in tax breaks knowing you will get more than $10Bn in increased tax revenue is good for the government and good for the employer. Is it fair? No. But liberalism doesn't aim to make the world fair; it aims to make it free.
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  The bidders are also free to mention to Amazon that they were thinking of increasing the funding for their local anti-trust investigations, and maybe those funds wouldn't be available if they had to be spent on infrastructure improvements related to significant new construction in the area instead. Ask for a bribe; get a threat. If a city can afford to blow a few million on tax breaks to get more millions in economic development, it can afford to blow a few hundred thousand on lawyers to get something in fines or settlements.

tormeh 9y ago

The US could just do what the EU does and ban sweetheart tax deals. Such tax deals are anti-small-company/unfair and it's a race to the bottom that no one will win.

conanbatt 9y ago
Consumers, employers and investors would win. What are you talking about.
- Pxtl 9y ago
  He means targeted deals for specific companies. That means that other employers of other companies lose out from unfair competition, which leads to monopoly that is bad for consumers. Investors win, but not as well as they'd win in a fair competitive market.