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I was in Hawaii this weekend and explaining this to my girlfriend who is not at all a "techy". I explained to her, how odd it is, that the internet works here b

I was in Hawaii this weekend and explaining this to my girlfriend who is not at all a "techy". I explained to her, how odd it is, that the internet works here because there's literally a giant cord from the island back to California laying on the ground in the ocean. Seems rather primitive when you stop and think about it.

sizzzzlerz 9y ago
what are the options? Satellite transmission certainly is one but it is bandwidth limited and it imposes delays due to the distance involved. Microwave radio won't work because it's line-of-sight. HF or VHF radio has atmospheric effects and noise issues and is even more bandwidth constrained. So, really, cable is the best option giving the lowest price per bit. Fiber, these days, is approaching 100 Gbps with the ability to multiplex multiple bit streams onto different wavelengths to allow transmission of insane amounts of data. Hardly primitive when you do think about it.
- kilroy123 9y ago
  There hasn't been any other option. However, I think we could launch a low orbit satellite constellation, now. It will be exciting to see how well it will actually work.
  - jgalt212 9y ago
    You mean like Iridium? > Satellites are in low Earth orbit at a height of approximately 485 mi (781 km) and inclination of 86.4° https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_satellite_constellation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_satellite_constellatio...
  - planteen 9y ago
    You can get Irudium or Globalstar today in 9600 bps of glory with rain and cloud fade issues.
    - lb1lf 9y ago
      ...and the less is spoken of the time I found myself >1000km from the nearest wired network point and needed to download an 8MB file over Iridium, the better. Let's just say it makes you appreciate download managers a lot. The same appreciation was not extended to my IT department, which had decided -without informing me- that the service tool I had installed prior to departure was a potential risk and had quietly removed it... Besides, if you are less -ahem- cost-sensitive, Inmarsat offers FleetBroadband which from geostationary orbit easily gives you >100kbps (as long as you are not anywhere near the poles!) As an added bonus, rain fade is not much of an issue; I believe it uses L band. (Same as GPS/GLONASS/Galileo)
      - planteen 9y ago
        Sounds like we could swap stories. :-) Trying to one text messages in and one out was a 20 minute affair in the rainy mountains of Peru with Iridium. Globalstar data service seemed to have random drops and periods where connection was impossible, even in dry weather. FleetBroadband sounds interesting.
  - sizzzzlerz 9y ago
    You still have limited bandwidth and latency. Just because you break the distance up into smaller hops, the total distance to travel remains the same. Maybe scientists should focus on increasing the speed of light. LEOs also have short orbital lifetimes meaning the constellation needs to constantly be refreshed which isn't cheap.
    - aidenn0 9y ago
      The total distance to travel going via GSO or LEO is not at all the same; in particular, there's a fairly wide range of positions that an LEO satellite can be in where it has LOS to both Hawaii and the mainland. That being said, once you've laid the cable, fiber optic is fast, they typically over-provide the cables when they lay them, and they can often increase capacity by improvements at the endpoints. Radio to LEO seems unlikely to compete with that, but for less-populous and/or poorer islands it might make sense.
    - colek42 9y ago
      I think SpaceX proposed system will be in LEO ~1100km above the earth. At this distance, satellite internet should be faster due to having a straight line, and the fact that EM in a vacuum is faster than fiber.
  - toeicnw2848 9y ago
    I like how Hackernews speaks about topics it doesn't at all understand as if nobody smarter has thought about these issues before.
- oakwhiz 9y ago
  How about a chain of microwave point to point buoys leading to the mainland?
- Aloha 9y ago
  Troposcatter words for longer range communications - its better than LOS.
planteen 9y ago
It doesn't seem that primitive to me. You already have connections for other utilities. Even in my home, I prefer to run Ethernet rather than deal with Wifi issues to various devices.
pavement 9y ago
You have to step back from the whole concept surrounding wireless communications, and really weigh the fundamental principles at work to consider the realities of the universe we inhabit, which is totally weird and doesn't at all stand up to ideas one might consider "normal" or reasonable. The idea of wireless communication is only just a little bit more glamorous, because it's really the only thing that will assist humanity as part of space travel. And because we know light signals have pretty high fidelity across vast distances of (mostly) empty space. But, solid state conductors, even if not purely contiguous due to repeaters and amplifiers, still seem pretty rational, when you start to think about what conductive transmission mediums actually do, especially as compared to emission filaments and diodes as broadcast signal sources.
- mjevans 9y ago
  You're close to why point to point connections have an advantage, well two. Fixed links mean the signal can be narrowed so that less other things interfere with it and it interferes less with other things. There isn't contention or the crowded room effect (like an apartment complex stuffed with WiFi nodes). The fixed nature also allows for a more optimal end point configuration. (Lower power, longer distance, etc)
  - pavement 9y ago
    Yep, right out of the box, the clear advantage is no deliberate signal jamming with a malicious high volume noise floor, no line of sight requirements for directional signals, and lower incidental destructive interference from sharing the medium, reducing dependence on digital signal processing filters.

sizzzzlerz 9y ago

what are the options? Satellite transmission certainly is one but it is bandwidth limited and it imposes delays due to the distance involved. Microwave radio won't work because it's line-of-sight. HF or VHF radio has atmospheric effects and noise issues and is even more bandwidth constrained. So, really, cable is the best option giving the lowest price per bit. Fiber, these days, is approaching 100 Gbps with the ability to multiplex multiple bit streams onto different wavelengths to allow transmission of insane amounts of data. Hardly primitive when you do think about it.

kilroy123 9y ago
There hasn't been any other option. However, I think we could launch a low orbit satellite constellation, now. It will be exciting to see how well it will actually work.
- jgalt212 9y ago
  You mean like Iridium? > Satellites are in low Earth orbit at a height of approximately 485 mi (781 km) and inclination of 86.4° https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_satellite_constellation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_satellite_constellatio...
- planteen 9y ago
  You can get Irudium or Globalstar today in 9600 bps of glory with rain and cloud fade issues.
  - lb1lf 9y ago
    ...and the less is spoken of the time I found myself >1000km from the nearest wired network point and needed to download an 8MB file over Iridium, the better. Let's just say it makes you appreciate download managers a lot. The same appreciation was not extended to my IT department, which had decided -without informing me- that the service tool I had installed prior to departure was a potential risk and had quietly removed it... Besides, if you are less -ahem- cost-sensitive, Inmarsat offers FleetBroadband which from geostationary orbit easily gives you >100kbps (as long as you are not anywhere near the poles!) As an added bonus, rain fade is not much of an issue; I believe it uses L band. (Same as GPS/GLONASS/Galileo)
    - planteen 9y ago
      Sounds like we could swap stories. :-) Trying to one text messages in and one out was a 20 minute affair in the rainy mountains of Peru with Iridium. Globalstar data service seemed to have random drops and periods where connection was impossible, even in dry weather. FleetBroadband sounds interesting.
- sizzzzlerz 9y ago
  You still have limited bandwidth and latency. Just because you break the distance up into smaller hops, the total distance to travel remains the same. Maybe scientists should focus on increasing the speed of light. LEOs also have short orbital lifetimes meaning the constellation needs to constantly be refreshed which isn't cheap.
  - aidenn0 9y ago
    The total distance to travel going via GSO or LEO is not at all the same; in particular, there's a fairly wide range of positions that an LEO satellite can be in where it has LOS to both Hawaii and the mainland. That being said, once you've laid the cable, fiber optic is fast, they typically over-provide the cables when they lay them, and they can often increase capacity by improvements at the endpoints. Radio to LEO seems unlikely to compete with that, but for less-populous and/or poorer islands it might make sense.
  - colek42 9y ago
    I think SpaceX proposed system will be in LEO ~1100km above the earth. At this distance, satellite internet should be faster due to having a straight line, and the fact that EM in a vacuum is faster than fiber.
- toeicnw2848 9y ago
  I like how Hackernews speaks about topics it doesn't at all understand as if nobody smarter has thought about these issues before.
oakwhiz 9y ago
How about a chain of microwave point to point buoys leading to the mainland?
Aloha 9y ago
Troposcatter words for longer range communications - its better than LOS.

planteen 9y ago

It doesn't seem that primitive to me. You already have connections for other utilities. Even in my home, I prefer to run Ethernet rather than deal with Wifi issues to various devices.

pavement 9y ago

You have to step back from the whole concept surrounding wireless communications, and really weigh the fundamental principles at work to consider the realities of the universe we inhabit, which is totally weird and doesn't at all stand up to ideas one might consider "normal" or reasonable. The idea of wireless communication is only just a little bit more glamorous, because it's really the only thing that will assist humanity as part of space travel. And because we know light signals have pretty high fidelity across vast distances of (mostly) empty space. But, solid state conductors, even if not purely contiguous due to repeaters and amplifiers, still seem pretty rational, when you start to think about what conductive transmission mediums actually do, especially as compared to emission filaments and diodes as broadcast signal sources.

mjevans 9y ago
You're close to why point to point connections have an advantage, well two. Fixed links mean the signal can be narrowed so that less other things interfere with it and it interferes less with other things. There isn't contention or the crowded room effect (like an apartment complex stuffed with WiFi nodes). The fixed nature also allows for a more optimal end point configuration. (Lower power, longer distance, etc)
- pavement 9y ago
  Yep, right out of the box, the clear advantage is no deliberate signal jamming with a malicious high volume noise floor, no line of sight requirements for directional signals, and lower incidental destructive interference from sharing the medium, reducing dependence on digital signal processing filters.