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Yesterday there was a post about a coming linux kernel feature, kernel TLS sockets. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15164568 https://news.ycombinator.com/

Yesterday there was a post about a coming linux kernel feature, kernel TLS sockets. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15164568 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15164568) One of the justifications: it removes the need to copy data between kernel/user-space. KTLS strikes me as inelegant. Socket programming requires you to reason about your frames on the wire. Proto-socket features complicate this. A unikernel approach would allow us to eliminate unnecessary copies, and could be done with more elegance than KTLS.

trapperkeeper74 9y ago
The Linux kernel is a dumping-ground, kitchen-drain of all features (20 megaLoC with no end in sight) because of their inability to isolate concerns and provide fast IPC.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  You also forgot about security in this IPC which is very much not a priority for Linus. With good reasons - security community has no consensus there.
- orf 9y ago
  And yet able to capture the server and phone market so completely. Best isn't always best.
- xxs 9y ago
  Shared memory and busy spinning work normally when you need that latency (high freq. trading for instance)
api 9y ago
Is the obsession with avoiding memory copying really justified? I'd like to see some data. Is this really a bottleneck in modern systems? Is TLS a bottleneck at all for most work loads?
- justincormack 9y ago
  Memory bandwidth still matters, yes. Cache sizes are still not very big, and a copy uses more cache. Obviously you may have other bottlenecks first, but it matters once you are using 10Gb ethernet or faster, for example.
  - api 9y ago
    That's a good point. It's probably more a cache thing than a CPU cycles thing and that might not show up on a straightforward CPU profile. What would happen if you used special instructions to try to implement a non-cache-polluting memcpy? Or is that even possible? It's been a while but I seem to think that modern CPUs have a variety of cache control instructions. Zero copy is great but it can be a PITA.
    - justincormack 9y ago
      You have to use at least one cache line for memcpy. But you need more for pipelining the accesses probably to get good speed. Benchmarking memcpy though is complicated.
- wmf 9y ago
  IIRC Netflix found TLS to be a bottleneck when serving 100 Gbps of static content over HTTPS, but that's an unusual case. The kTLS paper showed pretty small speedups, so maybe the real motivation is TLS hardware offload.

trapperkeeper74 9y ago

The Linux kernel is a dumping-ground, kitchen-drain of all features (20 megaLoC with no end in sight) because of their inability to isolate concerns and provide fast IPC.

AstralStorm 9y ago
You also forgot about security in this IPC which is very much not a priority for Linus. With good reasons - security community has no consensus there.
orf 9y ago
And yet able to capture the server and phone market so completely. Best isn't always best.
xxs 9y ago
Shared memory and busy spinning work normally when you need that latency (high freq. trading for instance)

api 9y ago

Is the obsession with avoiding memory copying really justified? I'd like to see some data. Is this really a bottleneck in modern systems? Is TLS a bottleneck at all for most work loads?

justincormack 9y ago
Memory bandwidth still matters, yes. Cache sizes are still not very big, and a copy uses more cache. Obviously you may have other bottlenecks first, but it matters once you are using 10Gb ethernet or faster, for example.
- api 9y ago
  That's a good point. It's probably more a cache thing than a CPU cycles thing and that might not show up on a straightforward CPU profile. What would happen if you used special instructions to try to implement a non-cache-polluting memcpy? Or is that even possible? It's been a while but I seem to think that modern CPUs have a variety of cache control instructions. Zero copy is great but it can be a PITA.
  - justincormack 9y ago
    You have to use at least one cache line for memcpy. But you need more for pipelining the accesses probably to get good speed. Benchmarking memcpy though is complicated.
wmf 9y ago
IIRC Netflix found TLS to be a bottleneck when serving 100 Gbps of static content over HTTPS, but that's an unusual case. The kTLS paper showed pretty small speedups, so maybe the real motivation is TLS hardware offload.