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The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfect

The 18%, Chinese people, do not want outsider's input on their governmental structure. On the whole (edit: "on the whole" means "most people"), they are perfectly happy with the way things are going. Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year. Until that stops, they don't want a thing to change. Now if that stops for a decade or so, maybe it will change. But that's unlikely to happen. So, it's futile to bring your western view to bear on their issues. A one party government is the way they want it here.

chibg10 9y ago
As if the CCP's "miracle" of economic development hasn't already been done in South Korea, Taiwan, etc. without the authoritarians who also brought the wonders that are The Great Leap Forward and The Cultural Revolution. Or as if India isn't already basically replicating the same feat with a democracy, but 10 years delayed. It isn't a "Western view" to understand that governments that respect human rights generally lead to happier civilizations in the long run. It's simply observable from empirical data.
- namelost 9y ago
  Do you really think that China is capable of an easy and bloodless transition to a democratic system? Perhaps Chinese people know better than anyone just how violent revolution can be.
  - DashRattlesnake 9y ago
    > Do you really think that China is capable of an easy and bloodless transition to a democratic system? I suppose that really depends on the Communist party...
  - vkou 9y ago
    Was the Soviet Union?
- girzel 9y ago
  South Korea and Taiwan did do it with authoritarians. They were absolutely authoritarian governments, and they each had their own mini-revolution once their societies reached a certain level of affluence. The difference is that China's mini-revolution (June 4, 1989) failed, where theirs succeeded.
- guildwriter 9y ago
  What are you talking about? South Korea and Taiwan may not have had those stand out moments of mass murder, but saying they didn't go through an authoritarian period is just not true. It may not have been on the same scale, but it still involved mass oppression, murder, blackmail, kidnapping, and other unsavory methods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee#Legacy That being said, I don't necessarily disagree with the principle of your statement about free societies being better.
StanislavPetrov 9y ago
Talking about any massive group of people as if they all share the same belief is never useful. Its one thing to suggest that some, or a majority, of Chinese support the current system, and quite another to suggest that they all do. I'm pretty sure "tank man" and countless other Chinese would disagree with your characterization of "what they want".
- bobjordan 9y ago
  I get your point on "all" vs. "most" vs. "some". Let me clarify, I'm drinking my morning coffee from China and just typing a stream of thoughts here. I read the first sentence in your response here, and I'll point out your own logical fallacy. "Talking about any massive group of people as if they all share the same belief is never useful." Well, from my decade as an entrepreneur, I can assure you, it is sometimes quite useful to generalize. One skill required to survive is to form opinions based on limited access to information under conditions of uncertainty. So I'd caution against your own use of the word "never". Anyway, my original comment did state "on the whole". This means "most".
girzel 9y ago
That's a strange claim, given that you are not allowed to ask the Chinese people, en masse, if they like their government or not, and they are not allowed to tell you. Until they are allowed to speak on the subject, we will not know. But the near-daily peasant uprisings around the country would tend to indicate dissatisfaction.
- bobjordan 9y ago
  You are correct in that I cannot canvass the 1.4 Billion population "en massee". I'm constrained to navigate the world and form opinions based on incomplete information. But, given I run a company here in China and have been here for 8 years, I'm a bit skeptical when I hear all the hyperbolic pitch fork raising from westerners who likely haven't spent much time here and had long term exposure to the culture and the people. I can tell you that your assertion "they are not allowed to tell you" is a very strange claim itself to me. I've had plenty of conversations about this with my employees. As a westerner, yes you'd better watch your words. But it's common for them to hear me rail about internet issues and they just snicker and move on. But make no mistake, the people are rabid Nationalists. They've been living under single party rule for thousands of years. Their economy will be the strongest on the planet, #1, eventually and that time will be soon. Anyone that thinks they are going to start a movement to force China to change, better not hold their breath. Yes, it is strongly moving more authoritarian here regarding the internet and free speech. That sucks for us westerners but the extreme vast majority of Chinese people I am exposed to, they could not care less.
  - girzel 9y ago
    I think where we're likely to agree is that, if popular dissatisfaction does lead to fundamental change, it's not likely to be the dissatisfaction of middle class folks demanding Western-style freedoms. It's much more likely to come from the bottom layers of society, who are fed up with gross inequality and horrible injustice. That said, it is useful to constantly remind yourself that your point of view on China is only ever a tiny corner of the picture. I lived there for 15 years (not to make this a pissing contest) and speak Chinese fluently, and my peer group there was mad as hell about the government. But I know that hanging out with writers and journalists is going to give me a pretty skewed point of view on the country as a whole. Lastly, about "thousands of years of single party rule", I think Chinese history over the past 150 years makes it abundantly plain that Chinese people have absolutely had it with single party rule. From the Xinhai Revolution, to May Fourth, to the early 1950 political participation, to 1989, to the Charter '08, the history of China in the modern period is the history of a people who are doing their goddamn best to throw off authoritarianism, and who keep getting crushed by the authorities. And then, twenty or thirty years later, they get up and do it again. It's fucking heartbreaking, to be honest. Each time it's led by an educated elite, not necessarily "the masses", but that's how change usually happens. The big difference now is that the educated elite has been numbed by consumerism, and the pissed-off folks are on the bottom. That's also a bad place to be, though, as far as the government is concerned.
laowaiba 9y ago
> Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year I lived in China for a few years, and finally left early this year. Standard of living has been declining ever since I arrived, for me and for my local friends, many of them that were from other provinces that came to Shanghai. The declining factors included: 1.) Increasingly worse air pollution. It was not smart to exercise outdoors in the summer or winter. 2.) Increasingly worse water pollution (even reported by the state media). The frequency of diarrhea keeps going up. 3.) Increasingly worse food supply (there was a scandal of a company in northern China that used toxic industrial agents in common food items for 10!! years) 4.) Lack of jobs for migrants. Alot of them had to head back home to their farms. 5.) Censorship Censorship Censorship. Not a day went by that I wasn't frustrated with my VPN not being able to hit a western site. 6.) Inflation. Everything is more and more expensive, in tier 1, 2, 3, and even 88 cities. But standards haven't gone up. 7.) Anyone rich is trying to get out. Australia, US, Canada, anywhere. Lastly, 8.) Chinese government regressing into a dictatorship, with the possibility of Xi Jin Ping taking a 3rd term.
- bobjordan 9y ago
  I'm not saying it doesn't suck for westerners. What I am saying is that from my view, which is of course constrained by all kinds of limits, my best guess hypotheses that I am putting 100% of my money on in the form of all my investments, is that it doesn't yet suck for the vast majority of Chinese in their own minds. Like a drum roll, we've been forced to give 10-20% wage increases every single year to keep my talent. Engineers that worked for me four years ago started out riding the bus. Now, they've all bought a new car at some point. Several make more than I did at 25. They are not clamoring for democracy.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    It sucks for Chinese also. To know their life expectancies are being sacrificed for cheaper exports...really sucks. That under the dome video was censored very quickly for a reason.
    - musage 9y ago
simonh 9y ago
If that was really true and the Party believed it, and also actualy cared what the people wanted, then they would have no objection to democratic elections. After all, the people would just all vote for the Party right? The people I know in China are perfectly well aware of how corrupt, oppressive, arbitrary and immoral their government is. They simply believe there is nothing they can do about it. It affects everybody. For example recently in my wife's home town all holiday for all policemen for the rest of the year was cancelled with no compensation. If officials want to do something, they just do it. Just because people can't protest about it doesn't mean they like it. They know other countries have free press and democracy, a real say and voice in society, and of course most of them want that. What kind of person wants less say and fewer basic freedoms, especially when they can see plenty of very prosperous and safe countries that have them? They just can't see any practical way to get it.

chibg10 9y ago

As if the CCP's "miracle" of economic development hasn't already been done in South Korea, Taiwan, etc. without the authoritarians who also brought the wonders that are The Great Leap Forward and The Cultural Revolution. Or as if India isn't already basically replicating the same feat with a democracy, but 10 years delayed. It isn't a "Western view" to understand that governments that respect human rights generally lead to happier civilizations in the long run. It's simply observable from empirical data.

namelost 9y ago
Do you really think that China is capable of an easy and bloodless transition to a democratic system? Perhaps Chinese people know better than anyone just how violent revolution can be.
- DashRattlesnake 9y ago
  > Do you really think that China is capable of an easy and bloodless transition to a democratic system? I suppose that really depends on the Communist party...
- vkou 9y ago
  Was the Soviet Union?
girzel 9y ago
South Korea and Taiwan did do it with authoritarians. They were absolutely authoritarian governments, and they each had their own mini-revolution once their societies reached a certain level of affluence. The difference is that China's mini-revolution (June 4, 1989) failed, where theirs succeeded.
guildwriter 9y ago
What are you talking about? South Korea and Taiwan may not have had those stand out moments of mass murder, but saying they didn't go through an authoritarian period is just not true. It may not have been on the same scale, but it still involved mass oppression, murder, blackmail, kidnapping, and other unsavory methods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee#Legacy That being said, I don't necessarily disagree with the principle of your statement about free societies being better.

StanislavPetrov 9y ago

Talking about any massive group of people as if they all share the same belief is never useful. Its one thing to suggest that some, or a majority, of Chinese support the current system, and quite another to suggest that they all do. I'm pretty sure "tank man" and countless other Chinese would disagree with your characterization of "what they want".

bobjordan 9y ago
I get your point on "all" vs. "most" vs. "some". Let me clarify, I'm drinking my morning coffee from China and just typing a stream of thoughts here. I read the first sentence in your response here, and I'll point out your own logical fallacy. "Talking about any massive group of people as if they all share the same belief is never useful." Well, from my decade as an entrepreneur, I can assure you, it is sometimes quite useful to generalize. One skill required to survive is to form opinions based on limited access to information under conditions of uncertainty. So I'd caution against your own use of the word "never". Anyway, my original comment did state "on the whole". This means "most".

girzel 9y ago

That's a strange claim, given that you are not allowed to ask the Chinese people, en masse, if they like their government or not, and they are not allowed to tell you. Until they are allowed to speak on the subject, we will not know. But the near-daily peasant uprisings around the country would tend to indicate dissatisfaction.

bobjordan 9y ago
You are correct in that I cannot canvass the 1.4 Billion population "en massee". I'm constrained to navigate the world and form opinions based on incomplete information. But, given I run a company here in China and have been here for 8 years, I'm a bit skeptical when I hear all the hyperbolic pitch fork raising from westerners who likely haven't spent much time here and had long term exposure to the culture and the people. I can tell you that your assertion "they are not allowed to tell you" is a very strange claim itself to me. I've had plenty of conversations about this with my employees. As a westerner, yes you'd better watch your words. But it's common for them to hear me rail about internet issues and they just snicker and move on. But make no mistake, the people are rabid Nationalists. They've been living under single party rule for thousands of years. Their economy will be the strongest on the planet, #1, eventually and that time will be soon. Anyone that thinks they are going to start a movement to force China to change, better not hold their breath. Yes, it is strongly moving more authoritarian here regarding the internet and free speech. That sucks for us westerners but the extreme vast majority of Chinese people I am exposed to, they could not care less.
- girzel 9y ago
  I think where we're likely to agree is that, if popular dissatisfaction does lead to fundamental change, it's not likely to be the dissatisfaction of middle class folks demanding Western-style freedoms. It's much more likely to come from the bottom layers of society, who are fed up with gross inequality and horrible injustice. That said, it is useful to constantly remind yourself that your point of view on China is only ever a tiny corner of the picture. I lived there for 15 years (not to make this a pissing contest) and speak Chinese fluently, and my peer group there was mad as hell about the government. But I know that hanging out with writers and journalists is going to give me a pretty skewed point of view on the country as a whole. Lastly, about "thousands of years of single party rule", I think Chinese history over the past 150 years makes it abundantly plain that Chinese people have absolutely had it with single party rule. From the Xinhai Revolution, to May Fourth, to the early 1950 political participation, to 1989, to the Charter '08, the history of China in the modern period is the history of a people who are doing their goddamn best to throw off authoritarianism, and who keep getting crushed by the authorities. And then, twenty or thirty years later, they get up and do it again. It's fucking heartbreaking, to be honest. Each time it's led by an educated elite, not necessarily "the masses", but that's how change usually happens. The big difference now is that the educated elite has been numbed by consumerism, and the pissed-off folks are on the bottom. That's also a bad place to be, though, as far as the government is concerned.

laowaiba 9y ago

> Standards of living increase year-over-year every single year I lived in China for a few years, and finally left early this year. Standard of living has been declining ever since I arrived, for me and for my local friends, many of them that were from other provinces that came to Shanghai. The declining factors included: 1.) Increasingly worse air pollution. It was not smart to exercise outdoors in the summer or winter. 2.) Increasingly worse water pollution (even reported by the state media). The frequency of diarrhea keeps going up. 3.) Increasingly worse food supply (there was a scandal of a company in northern China that used toxic industrial agents in common food items for 10!! years) 4.) Lack of jobs for migrants. Alot of them had to head back home to their farms. 5.) Censorship Censorship Censorship. Not a day went by that I wasn't frustrated with my VPN not being able to hit a western site. 6.) Inflation. Everything is more and more expensive, in tier 1, 2, 3, and even 88 cities. But standards haven't gone up. 7.) Anyone rich is trying to get out. Australia, US, Canada, anywhere. Lastly, 8.) Chinese government regressing into a dictatorship, with the possibility of Xi Jin Ping taking a 3rd term.

bobjordan 9y ago
I'm not saying it doesn't suck for westerners. What I am saying is that from my view, which is of course constrained by all kinds of limits, my best guess hypotheses that I am putting 100% of my money on in the form of all my investments, is that it doesn't yet suck for the vast majority of Chinese in their own minds. Like a drum roll, we've been forced to give 10-20% wage increases every single year to keep my talent. Engineers that worked for me four years ago started out riding the bus. Now, they've all bought a new car at some point. Several make more than I did at 25. They are not clamoring for democracy.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  It sucks for Chinese also. To know their life expectancies are being sacrificed for cheaper exports...really sucks. That under the dome video was censored very quickly for a reason.
  - musage 9y ago

simonh 9y ago

If that was really true and the Party believed it, and also actualy cared what the people wanted, then they would have no objection to democratic elections. After all, the people would just all vote for the Party right? The people I know in China are perfectly well aware of how corrupt, oppressive, arbitrary and immoral their government is. They simply believe there is nothing they can do about it. It affects everybody. For example recently in my wife's home town all holiday for all policemen for the rest of the year was cancelled with no compensation. If officials want to do something, they just do it. Just because people can't protest about it doesn't mean they like it. They know other countries have free press and democracy, a real say and voice in society, and of course most of them want that. What kind of person wants less say and fewer basic freedoms, especially when they can see plenty of very prosperous and safe countries that have them? They just can't see any practical way to get it.