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I am from the Netherlands and I have to say that regretably a large part of our country thinks that our farmers are incompetent, stupid, nature-hating animal b
by spiderfarmer 9y ago
I am from the Netherlands and I have to say that regretably a large part of our country thinks that our farmers are incompetent, stupid, nature-hating animal bashers because of how the media treats them.
It's gross how strong the lobby is against our farmers, even though they're clearly among the most competent, intelligent, sustainable farmers around the world.
They always use cherry-picked facts (and even blatant lies), decades old photo and video materials and examples from foreign farms against our farmers, in order to put pressure on the government to regulate our farmers even more, to the point where our farmers feel that they are nothing more than underpaid workers for a huge governmental organization.
- mverwijs 9y agoFrom the article: " This high-tech broiler house holds up to 150,000 birds, from hatching to harvesting" No 'decades old photo' either. I find it hard to believe someone loving live animals would put them in such a place.
- spiderfarmer 9y agoThese 150.000 birds are getting much better care from this single farmer than when they were spread over 10.000 households like they were 100 years ago.
- adrianN 9y agoCitation needed. Having a dozen chicken in a large yard seems to me to be pretty nice for the chicken.
- spiderfarmer 9y agoYou forget that nature is brutal. http://www.livingthecountrylife.com/animals/poultry/10-poultry-problems/ http://www.livingthecountrylife.com/animals/poultry/10-poult...
- cool_username 9y agoOut of curiosity, do you genuinely believe there is a citation out there relating to the treatment of chickens on this farm today vs. treatment of chickens on 10000 small household farms 100 years ago? It comes across as though you are demanding impossible standards of evidence here in order to cut off a side of an argument you don't agree with, and don't want to begin to consider? "Citation needed" is not a universally acceptable reflexive alternative to discussion of things you don't personally agree with. > Having a dozen chicken in a large yard seems to me to be pretty nice for the chicken. Citation needed.
- adrianN 9y agoI wouldn't be surprised if there was a paper that compares traditional methods of raising chicken to modern ones. But for the purposes of Internet discussion I would be satisfied with a convincing anecdote.
- spiderfarmer 9y agoRats, foxes and dozens of other meat eating predators would thoroughly enjoy the 10.000 unprotected henhouses. Bird flu has been a big problem historically because of the large amount chickens in urban areas, although it had different names then. It's still a problem now, but it's now only spread by migrating birds. When it comes to diseases. Do you think 10.000 amateur farmers know all ins and outs of chicken diseases as well as the professional chicken farmer? And do you think they are more exposed to diseases in a farm with hygenic corridors or in someones backyard?
- alsetmusic 9y ago> I find it hard to believe someone loving live animals would put them in such a place. I read the parent post as a statement on production and media representation. I didn't see any claim about farmers loving animals. I'm sure many do, but your argument is addressing something different. I love animals. I eat meat. I want humane treatment of animals when they are bred for consumption. I know this is frequently not the case. But this is a different cause than what parent post addresses (aside from the 'decades old' bit about photos, which I am not qualified to address as someone outside the Netherlands).
- usaphp 9y ago> large part of our country thinks that our farmers are incompetent, stupid, nature-hating animal bashers
- spiderfarmer 9y agoAnimal bashing is not something farmers do.
- codefined 9y agoMost farmers do literally bash the animals before slaughtering them[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol
- spiderfarmer 9y agoI am talking about Dutch farmers. This is exactly what I mean. For example, early this year Dutch farmers had to explain themselves for something that happened in a Belgian slaughterhouse. Do you like it when your mother blames you for bugs in her printer's Windows driver?
- NicoJuicy 9y agoWhat did the Netherlands had to do with this? The only thing I know is that done Dutch people sold illegal medecine to Belgian farmers and the Dutch were informed, but didn't alert Belgium That's what they had to explain, because it endangered the did supply
- 21 9y agoFunny, looking at the associated picture tells me a different story. Look at how uncrowded the chicks are and how much free space to move they have, and compare with US where they are so packed together that they can't even turn in place. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/magazine/rights-exempt/2017/09/hunger-solution/hunger-solution-chickens.adapt.1190.1.jpg http://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/magazine/right...
- enraged_camel 9y agoIt seems strange to point out how well you are treating an animal when you are slaughtering it for consumption in the end. In fact that is the animal's only purpose of existence.
- 21 9y agoI think you look for purpose where there is little. What's the purpose of an animal living in the wild? Ecologists would say eat or be eaten, thrive, multiply. From an evolutionary point of view you could say that cows, chickens, pigs (and cats, dogs, horses) are one of the most successful animals, exactly because we eat (or pet) them.
- spiderfarmer 9y agoMaybe I, like all my predecessors, am not yet 'evolved' enough to give up on eating meat. In the meantime I like the fact that the animals are growing up disease free in relatively humane conditions.
- enraged_camel 9y agoIt's not about being evolved enough, whatever that means. Eating meat is a conscious choice. Humans can do without meat. We are omnivores, not carnivores. I mean yes, in the grand scheme of things, treating animals well before slaughtering them is better than treating them poorly, but it misses the forest for the trees.
- 9y ago
- oh_sigh 9y agoLook at the bird density. They aren't packed in there in the slightest. Have you studied chicken raising? Do you have a better system? Do you really love all live animals or just intellectually love them and feel empathy when one is mistreated?
- spiderfarmer 9y agoFor animal rights activists there is no acceptable way to keep an animal. They want to regulate farms until it's economically impossible to produce meat (from living animals). I get that, but in my view nature is brutal and I have no problem killing an animal for a nice BBQ. Who is closer to nature?
- bostik 9y agoFor as long as there have been humans, they have made every effort possible to get away from nature. (I didn't come up with that joke. Gaiman and Pratchett did.)
- oh_sigh 9y agoYes, because nature isn't your friend and is completely indifferent to your pain, suffering, and existence. It's easy to fetishize and "love" nature while we sit in our climate controlled boxes looking at pictures of the 1% most scenic sites in the world.
- matthewmacleod 9y agoThat’s a “no true Scotsman” argument if ever I’ve heard one!
- krageon 9y agoThis is simply untrue. You can try spending some time having an actual conversation with real animal rights activists, you might find out that they're real nuanced people (just like you, hopefully).
- mverwijs 9y ago
- raugustinus 9y agoCalling modern farmers most competent , intelligent, sustainable is an interesting point of view. Agreed it's very hard to blame the farmers because few would survive not scaling out in the current system. Farming tech is far from sustainable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil#Erosion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil#Erosion And vertical farming, hydroponics is cool tech and RGB LED's are cool to increase size, weight etc for increased profits. None of that has a positive influence on sustainability. There a new phenomenon btw called Herenboeren, http://www.herenboeren.nl/ http://www.herenboeren.nl/, basically crowdfunding, for farmers. This is getting quite some attention. This at least gives me the impression that there's a bigger part of our country starting to see otherwise.
- spiderfarmer 9y agoYou are misquoting me. On purpose? Compare our farmers to the rest of the world. Study it. Please tell me in detail how they are not among the most intelligent, competent and sustainable.
- kuschku 9y agoHaving the lowest standards on raising chickens in western Europe? Check. Far longer allowed caged chicken raising than even Germany? Check. No control at all over the raising process, leading to over a year of time before the fibronil scandal became public? Check. They’re good farmers, but they’re not any better than the industry in other parts of western Europe.
- spiderfarmer 9y agoIf Photoshop has a couple of bugs, does that mean Microsoft is better than Adobe when it comes to photo editing software?
- gpvos 9y agoThat Herenboeren initiative looks to me like feel-good rubbish, while at WUR issues like sustainability, erosion, etc. seem to me to be addressed in a much more thorough way.
- d215 9y agoHmm, I am from the Netherlands too. Not sure which media and lobby against farmers you're exactly referring to. Who would be putting up this lobby and to what ends? Now I know that there is a big lobby in favour of agriculture in the Netherlands, that is highly successful and had basically a political party in its pocket up until the mid-90s - the CDA, you might want to google Gerrit Braks for example. This lobby was one of the enablers of the rise of the high-tech agri-cultural industry in the Netherlands as we know it today.
- spiderfarmer 9y agoThis piece, from a foreign media outlet is the only positive story about Dutch agriculture I saw in nearly a month. The last one was about how little antibiotics we use compared to the rest of the world. Stories about how our farmers are bad? Missed the whole fipronil hype that completely unsubstantiated? Talk to a farmer. Ask him who speaks for him nowadays. The lobby is "doodgepoldert". There is none. Check how the NPO, Wakker Dier, Pvdd, Milieudefensie and Greenpeace are connected and you'll see the size of that lobby.
- rocqua 9y agoI'd like a quote on the NPO there. That is a public non-partisan institution.
- spiderfarmer 9y agoThe links are quite clear and they are proudly advertising it. https://www.nieuweoogst.nu/nieuws/2017/01/19/objectieve-journalisten-in-hilversum https://www.nieuweoogst.nu/nieuws/2017/01/19/objectieve-jour...
- rocqua 9y agoThat reads more like propaganda than anything I've ever seen come out of the NOS. It is however interesting that there is overlap between stichting wakker dier membership and producers of NPO shows. Moreover it is very worrying that Diederik Stapel has any public advisory function. I wouldn't call this 'evidence of close organizational ties' though.
- davedx 9y agoI don't know about that? "Boer zoekt vrouw" is incredibly popular. One of my listening exams for NT2 was a farmer giving an interview about his life which was very interesting. I have relatives here who grew up working in the greenhouses. I admittedly don't read much mainstream Dutch news, but I don't get this impression. The one thing that jumps out if I think about Dutch farming and the news lately is the Fipronil incident. But even that was obviously one bad actor - however bad it is that it spread through so many farms and had such a large impact on Dutch farming. There are some farms with bad reputations, but farming in general seems to do quite well here!
- spiderfarmer 9y agoWell I might be ruined because I manage a large agricultural newsletter (for both farmers and nature lovers) so I see almost everything that's written (and said) about them.
- prawn 9y agoGenerally, a lobby represents one body/industry. If it's working against a group (say, farmers) it's because it represents something else rather than is solely against farmers. In which case, you should be able to guess and identify the lobby from its attack pieces. It might be someone who stands to benefit from sales of pesticides, or an environmental group, etc. I can't speak for the Netherlands, but in Australia, while there is an active and growing green movement, I would consider the industry-specific lobbying groups to be more successful at landing media pieces to influence the public. These would be lobbyists representing mining, banking, meat production, etc. This is usually because those industries are very well-funded and consolidated compared to environmental groups.