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The American Empire had a nice run. Continuously rising inequality at home and anti-hegemonic strategies (like this one) abroad signal that the end is nigh. Wha

The American Empire had a nice run. Continuously rising inequality at home and anti-hegemonic strategies (like this one) abroad signal that the end is nigh. What remains to be seen is how ugly things get during the transition.

adventured 9y ago
Meanwhile, back in reality, the US median income is among thh highest on earth, US disposable income is among the highest on earth, US economic productivity is among the highest on earth, US technology advancement is among the best on earth, US unemployment is low, US wages have been typically climbing twice as fast as in the EU, American companies dominate the planet (outside of China), and in the last ten years that Europe has been mostly treading water economically the US added an economy the size of Germany.
- igravious 9y ago
  This is all true. I don't disagree with you. But. (There's always a but.) I'm not disputing that the US isn't a great economic powerhouse. What I'm getting at is, at what cost. If the middle-class gets gutted and relative and absolute poverty keeps increasing then we're not really creating a just society, are we? In one of the wealthiest, if not the wealthiest nation ever if we still haven't figured out how to protect the most vulnerable among us then we've a bit of a problem. As some have suggested, maybe basic income is a solution? But to others you may as well have suggested that that dude Stalin may have made a nice omelette even though he broke a few eggs. And outside the US, what the untenable situation where two countries (neither of which are the US) have to trade oil in dollars. For just how long do you think that arrangement will last? It could be, and has been, argued that some part of the might of the US comes from having its currency as the world currency and part of that is dollar-denominated trade. Cease that and the landscape alters. China knows that. Others know that.
  - ddorian43 9y ago
    China also knows that you get bombed/hacked/etc to oblivion for trying it.
    - nl 9y ago
      Iran hasn't been bombed or hacked to oblivion for trying it[1]. Russia hasn't been bombed or hacked for trying to kill it[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25iht-place.4.10379176.html?mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25i...
- danmaz74 9y ago
  The big systematic problem the US is facing is that much of what you describe is heavily funded by the ability to print dollars to sustain the trade deficit - because the World needs dollars. In other words, the US is living above its means because the World is ready to give goods for paper (money). That move from China is aimed at undermining this ability. I'm completely not rooting for the Chinese, but the risk is real. If they succeed, the US will need to cut internal consumption by 2.6%, which will hit heavily an already struggling middle class. Not a good prospect.
- empath75 9y ago
  This too shall pass. The us has been coasting on good will and trump is squandering it. Now that he world doesn't see the us as a reliable partner, we're going to see the rug pulled out from under us rather quickly. China right now looks like a safer bet if you're looking for an ally.
igravious 9y ago
As soon as I posted the above comment I started getting down votes so let me go into detail to hopefully stave off any negativity in what I think is a very important topic. Sorry, I know its not the done thing to talk about down-voting here :) (1) Note that this article is _explicitly_ about changing the dollar-backed oil trading arrangements we have had up until now and even has the phrase “new world order” in the title. (2) Another article[0] on the front page at the moment discusses the economic implications of the current rising inequality with “How do those who have less than nothing keep giving to the rich? Simple: they go deeper into debt, deeper into negative wealth. But how can that be sustained over a long time? Debts don’t need to be paid off, but they do need to be serviced.” The answer is historically speaking is with revolution. Put (1) and (2) together and you do have a bit of a situation you must admit, no? Is it the phrase 'American Empire' that is being objected to? Fair enough, that's a bit of rhetoric on my part but American Imperialism[1] has got its own (rather long) Wikipedia page. Disagree all you want but tell me why you disagree rather than thumbing that down button :) [0] https://ergodicityeconomics.com/2017/08/14/wealth-redistribution-and-interest-rates/ https://ergodicityeconomics.com/2017/08/14/wealth-redistribu... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism edit: explaining the motivation for posting a follow-up
- tomcam 9y ago
  What kind of imperialists do what we did for Japan, Europe, Vietnam etc. without, oh, I don't know, getting territory or reimbursements out of the deal? Please, igravious, feel free to conquer me and play those same devious imperial tricks on me!
  - yorwba 9y ago
    The US did get a bunch out of those deals: military bases across the globe and the related political influence. For example, several European states house US nuclear weapons. [1] Japan serves as an outpost against China and North Korea. [2] "Currently South Korean forces would fall under United States control should the war resume. This war time control is planned to revert to South Korea in 2020." [3] And Vietnam? The south was lead by a series of military governments during the war, which the US was apparently willing to accept. Sure, they pressured for elections, but in the meantime, fighting Communism was more important. [4] I wouldn't call the US an empire, but they're not exactly a selfless force of protection either. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93United_States_relations#Military_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93United_States_re... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea%E2%80%93United_States_relations#Military_alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea%E2%80%93United_Sta... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam#1963.E2.80.9373 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam#1963.E2.80.9373
tomcam 9y ago
What empire? Who is the Viceroy of Okinawa or Stuttgart? When did we start collecting taxes from Djibouti or Kuwait?
- whytaka 9y ago
  The petrodollar is how the US collects their tributes.
  - tomcam 9y ago
    A voluntary exchange of goods or services for money is not a tax or tribute.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      When we invade countries and depose leaders who threaten to trade oil on something other than the dollar, it's not exactly voluntary.
      - nl 9y ago
        While I disagree with the comment you are replying to, your comment isn't correct either. There is a non-trivial amount of oil traded in the euro, and also see [1], [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25iht-place.4.10379176.html?mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25i...
    - igravious 9y ago
      I already explained _hours_ ago that I was using the term American Empire semi-rhetorically. It does not matter if you show that the way the US has employed and distributed its power historically do not meet your strict definition of how an empire operates because I'm not cutting my cloth to suit the tailoring of your definition. By many accounts the neo-colonial way in which the US has conducted and continues to conduct itself is imperial. It's kind of like duck-typing I figure. If it looks like an empire and behaves like an empire it's probably an empire. The four behavioral characteristics that clinch it for me are: [1] the continued unilateral interference in the sovereignty of other nations either covertly or overtly; [2] the non-participation in international norms; [3] the continued garrisoning of territories in other nations; [4] the historic and current role of the dollar and the US-backed financial systems and institutions globally. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_treaties_unsigned_or_unratified_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_treaties_unsigned_or_u... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States_dollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States...

adventured 9y ago

Meanwhile, back in reality, the US median income is among thh highest on earth, US disposable income is among the highest on earth, US economic productivity is among the highest on earth, US technology advancement is among the best on earth, US unemployment is low, US wages have been typically climbing twice as fast as in the EU, American companies dominate the planet (outside of China), and in the last ten years that Europe has been mostly treading water economically the US added an economy the size of Germany.

igravious 9y ago
This is all true. I don't disagree with you. But. (There's always a but.) I'm not disputing that the US isn't a great economic powerhouse. What I'm getting at is, at what cost. If the middle-class gets gutted and relative and absolute poverty keeps increasing then we're not really creating a just society, are we? In one of the wealthiest, if not the wealthiest nation ever if we still haven't figured out how to protect the most vulnerable among us then we've a bit of a problem. As some have suggested, maybe basic income is a solution? But to others you may as well have suggested that that dude Stalin may have made a nice omelette even though he broke a few eggs. And outside the US, what the untenable situation where two countries (neither of which are the US) have to trade oil in dollars. For just how long do you think that arrangement will last? It could be, and has been, argued that some part of the might of the US comes from having its currency as the world currency and part of that is dollar-denominated trade. Cease that and the landscape alters. China knows that. Others know that.
- ddorian43 9y ago
  China also knows that you get bombed/hacked/etc to oblivion for trying it.
  - nl 9y ago
    Iran hasn't been bombed or hacked to oblivion for trying it[1]. Russia hasn't been bombed or hacked for trying to kill it[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25iht-place.4.10379176.html?mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25i...
danmaz74 9y ago
The big systematic problem the US is facing is that much of what you describe is heavily funded by the ability to print dollars to sustain the trade deficit - because the World needs dollars. In other words, the US is living above its means because the World is ready to give goods for paper (money). That move from China is aimed at undermining this ability. I'm completely not rooting for the Chinese, but the risk is real. If they succeed, the US will need to cut internal consumption by 2.6%, which will hit heavily an already struggling middle class. Not a good prospect.
empath75 9y ago
This too shall pass. The us has been coasting on good will and trump is squandering it. Now that he world doesn't see the us as a reliable partner, we're going to see the rug pulled out from under us rather quickly. China right now looks like a safer bet if you're looking for an ally.

igravious 9y ago

As soon as I posted the above comment I started getting down votes so let me go into detail to hopefully stave off any negativity in what I think is a very important topic. Sorry, I know its not the done thing to talk about down-voting here :) (1) Note that this article is _explicitly_ about changing the dollar-backed oil trading arrangements we have had up until now and even has the phrase “new world order” in the title. (2) Another article[0] on the front page at the moment discusses the economic implications of the current rising inequality with “How do those who have less than nothing keep giving to the rich? Simple: they go deeper into debt, deeper into negative wealth. But how can that be sustained over a long time? Debts don’t need to be paid off, but they do need to be serviced.” The answer is historically speaking is with revolution. Put (1) and (2) together and you do have a bit of a situation you must admit, no? Is it the phrase 'American Empire' that is being objected to? Fair enough, that's a bit of rhetoric on my part but American Imperialism[1] has got its own (rather long) Wikipedia page. Disagree all you want but tell me why you disagree rather than thumbing that down button :) [0] https://ergodicityeconomics.com/2017/08/14/wealth-redistribution-and-interest-rates/ https://ergodicityeconomics.com/2017/08/14/wealth-redistribu... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism edit: explaining the motivation for posting a follow-up

tomcam 9y ago
What kind of imperialists do what we did for Japan, Europe, Vietnam etc. without, oh, I don't know, getting territory or reimbursements out of the deal? Please, igravious, feel free to conquer me and play those same devious imperial tricks on me!
- yorwba 9y ago
  The US did get a bunch out of those deals: military bases across the globe and the related political influence. For example, several European states house US nuclear weapons. [1] Japan serves as an outpost against China and North Korea. [2] "Currently South Korean forces would fall under United States control should the war resume. This war time control is planned to revert to South Korea in 2020." [3] And Vietnam? The south was lead by a series of military governments during the war, which the US was apparently willing to accept. Sure, they pressured for elections, but in the meantime, fighting Communism was more important. [4] I wouldn't call the US an empire, but they're not exactly a selfless force of protection either. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93United_States_relations#Military_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93United_States_re... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea%E2%80%93United_States_relations#Military_alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea%E2%80%93United_Sta... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam#1963.E2.80.9373 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam#1963.E2.80.9373

tomcam 9y ago

What empire? Who is the Viceroy of Okinawa or Stuttgart? When did we start collecting taxes from Djibouti or Kuwait?

whytaka 9y ago
The petrodollar is how the US collects their tributes.
- tomcam 9y ago
  A voluntary exchange of goods or services for money is not a tax or tribute.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    When we invade countries and depose leaders who threaten to trade oil on something other than the dollar, it's not exactly voluntary.
    - nl 9y ago
      While I disagree with the comment you are replying to, your comment isn't correct either. There is a non-trivial amount of oil traded in the euro, and also see [1], [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25iht-place.4.10379176.html?mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25i...
  - igravious 9y ago
    I already explained _hours_ ago that I was using the term American Empire semi-rhetorically. It does not matter if you show that the way the US has employed and distributed its power historically do not meet your strict definition of how an empire operates because I'm not cutting my cloth to suit the tailoring of your definition. By many accounts the neo-colonial way in which the US has conducted and continues to conduct itself is imperial. It's kind of like duck-typing I figure. If it looks like an empire and behaves like an empire it's probably an empire. The four behavioral characteristics that clinch it for me are: [1] the continued unilateral interference in the sovereignty of other nations either covertly or overtly; [2] the non-participation in international norms; [3] the continued garrisoning of territories in other nations; [4] the historic and current role of the dollar and the US-backed financial systems and institutions globally. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_treaties_unsigned_or_unratified_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_treaties_unsigned_or_u... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States_dollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#United_States...