4 ms·

>> For retrofitting, every single case is different, it's custom, and 90% of the time it's not easy. And, no, slapping a Raspberry Pi to the side of a milkshake

by petra 9y ago

>> For retrofitting, every single case is different, it's custom, and 90% of the time it's not easy. And, no, slapping a Raspberry Pi to the side of a milkshake freezer isn't the answer. Some products like Helium are closer, but an array of open-collector GPIOs isn't the answer either. >> 90% of the time it's not easy Why ? And maybe the right approach is a marketplace approach ? Say i'm an someone who have created a node for fridge X, at my local town. allow me to upload designs of hardware(or maybe standard programmable hw, what makes sense), software, cables, documentation, maybe verification - and to sell them to anybody, easily. And when someone orders such designs, the marketplace sends him everything fully working with simple installation instructions ?

extrapickles 9y ago
That will work for some of it. Quite a bit of industrial stuff is one offs, were you have the only one(s) in existence. I've made devices for industrial use were the customer only needed 1-5 of them.
- petra 9y ago
  For those types of devices, do you think a board built around something like a PSOC chip(fully programmable analog+digital+mcu chip) or something improved along those lines, give enough programmability to cover plenty of such devices and help implementers ?
  - nine_k 9y ago
    The hardware might be fine. With the software, it's already harder, it needs adaptation, if not writing from scratch. With sensors, it's fitting them to the unique mechanical circumstances of the one-off machine. And both if these you can't scale, can't reuse.
  - extrapickles 9y ago
    For that specific customer, off the self stuff would not last more than a day or two as it had to survive -20C to 80C temperature swings in the space of a few minutes, along with the enclosure being rated to IP69K. The single board computer we used was off the shelf, then modified to survive the conditions inside the enclosure (eg: adding conformal coatings). Making electronics survive those conditions is expensive and most people don't need that level of protection.
  - dahtguy 9y ago
    A PSoC-focused design trades flexibility for price, power, and performance. Hard sell.
- dreamcompiler 9y ago
  Exactly. If you've never debugged code with a logic analyzer, you can't understand what a hellacious bespoke PITA embedded realtime software can be. Personally, I like this stuff, but it's not everybody's cup of tea, and while your experience is transferable to the next problem, your work product often is not.
  - joezydeco 9y ago
    It's also not usually running on state-of-the-art chips and architectures. Think about hooking into a 8051 microcontroller (circa 1989) with on-chip RAM and EEPROM and no spare I/O.
joezydeco 9y ago
I have this feeling you're used to an open ecosystem (like web design) where everyone shares code and designs somewhat freely. In my line of work, that's the complete opposite of what goes on. Ecosystems are closed for a number of reasons including patents, warranty, and liability. Unless you work directly with the equipment maker and their circle of suppliers and customers, getting full approval along the way from every party (including the end customer who has no idea what's inside that black box), you're pretty much going to be on the outside.
- petra 9y ago
  >> Unless you work directly with the equipment maker and their circle of suppliers and customers What does this mean ? being a certified field engineer, with the explicit permission of IOT retrofitting ? And if so why ? And assuming the equipment manufacturer is interested in a way of doing this, wouldn't he be interested in scaling and maybe some profit and other benefits(we'll probably find some benefits along the way) ?
  - joezydeco 9y ago
    Companies that manufacture and sell industrial equipment shy away from any third-party modifications or additions to their units. First off, it will invalidate the warranty and cause many headaches for service personnel. Customers depend on that warranty and service network and many times it's part of the purchase contract. Secondly, a lot of equipment is validated and approved by the customer before installation. For example, any piece of kitchen equipment that goes into a McDonald's has been validated and tested in their corporate kitchens before it's even allowed to approach an actual store. Modifications and retrofits are, again, not allowed without their permission. So unless you have a business relationship with McDonald's beforehand, you won't get the time of day from them. Thirdly, there's no profit motive in it for the manufacturer. I've worked on systems where IoT subsystems can help with predictive maintenance (thereby minimizing emergency service calls and expensive downtime), but the cost of that system typically isn't passed on to the final customer price.

by petra 9y ago

extrapickles 9y ago

That will work for some of it. Quite a bit of industrial stuff is one offs, were you have the only one(s) in existence. I've made devices for industrial use were the customer only needed 1-5 of them.

petra 9y ago
For those types of devices, do you think a board built around something like a PSOC chip(fully programmable analog+digital+mcu chip) or something improved along those lines, give enough programmability to cover plenty of such devices and help implementers ?
- nine_k 9y ago
  The hardware might be fine. With the software, it's already harder, it needs adaptation, if not writing from scratch. With sensors, it's fitting them to the unique mechanical circumstances of the one-off machine. And both if these you can't scale, can't reuse.
- extrapickles 9y ago
  For that specific customer, off the self stuff would not last more than a day or two as it had to survive -20C to 80C temperature swings in the space of a few minutes, along with the enclosure being rated to IP69K. The single board computer we used was off the shelf, then modified to survive the conditions inside the enclosure (eg: adding conformal coatings). Making electronics survive those conditions is expensive and most people don't need that level of protection.
- dahtguy 9y ago
  A PSoC-focused design trades flexibility for price, power, and performance. Hard sell.
dreamcompiler 9y ago
Exactly. If you've never debugged code with a logic analyzer, you can't understand what a hellacious bespoke PITA embedded realtime software can be. Personally, I like this stuff, but it's not everybody's cup of tea, and while your experience is transferable to the next problem, your work product often is not.
- joezydeco 9y ago
  It's also not usually running on state-of-the-art chips and architectures. Think about hooking into a 8051 microcontroller (circa 1989) with on-chip RAM and EEPROM and no spare I/O.

joezydeco 9y ago

I have this feeling you're used to an open ecosystem (like web design) where everyone shares code and designs somewhat freely. In my line of work, that's the complete opposite of what goes on. Ecosystems are closed for a number of reasons including patents, warranty, and liability. Unless you work directly with the equipment maker and their circle of suppliers and customers, getting full approval along the way from every party (including the end customer who has no idea what's inside that black box), you're pretty much going to be on the outside.

petra 9y ago
>> Unless you work directly with the equipment maker and their circle of suppliers and customers What does this mean ? being a certified field engineer, with the explicit permission of IOT retrofitting ? And if so why ? And assuming the equipment manufacturer is interested in a way of doing this, wouldn't he be interested in scaling and maybe some profit and other benefits(we'll probably find some benefits along the way) ?
- joezydeco 9y ago
  Companies that manufacture and sell industrial equipment shy away from any third-party modifications or additions to their units. First off, it will invalidate the warranty and cause many headaches for service personnel. Customers depend on that warranty and service network and many times it's part of the purchase contract. Secondly, a lot of equipment is validated and approved by the customer before installation. For example, any piece of kitchen equipment that goes into a McDonald's has been validated and tested in their corporate kitchens before it's even allowed to approach an actual store. Modifications and retrofits are, again, not allowed without their permission. So unless you have a business relationship with McDonald's beforehand, you won't get the time of day from them. Thirdly, there's no profit motive in it for the manufacturer. I've worked on systems where IoT subsystems can help with predictive maintenance (thereby minimizing emergency service calls and expensive downtime), but the cost of that system typically isn't passed on to the final customer price.