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I work in Automotive Manufacturing IT. Something left unsaid about IIoT is that when the business needs something, they go and buy it. There is no plan for IIoT

by csours 9y ago

I work in Automotive Manufacturing IT. Something left unsaid about IIoT is that when the business needs something, they go and buy it. There is no plan for IIoT, there sometimes isn't even a plan for IT. All of your pretty analytics won't do jack if all you get back is -999. Things get complicated the closer you get to the metal, so systems are installed and configured to work, and then you back away slowly and don't breathe on it. Eventually you have a plant full of things that look very similar from the front office, but once you dig in, all of the interesting stuff is completely different, and different in different ways.

matt_wulfeck 9y ago
> All of your pretty analytics won't do jack if all you get back is -999. Things get complicated the closer you get to the metal, so systems are installed and configured to work, and then you back away slowly and don't breathe on it. The risk aversion that some sysadmins feel towards changes is absolutely nothing compared to what floor managers want out of their technology. They want to never touch it ever. They want it to work and they want never having to ever think about it. This is perhaps the polar-opposite of what IIoT provides today, requiring constant configuration and security patches. And GE and others are still wondering somehow why the tech isn't taking off.
- _pmf_ 9y ago
  > They want to never touch it ever. They are prohibited from touching it because vendors of equipment that is part of the assembly line have contract clauses that can bankrupt them within hours when equipment fails and cannot be repaired or replaced within 2 hours, so they in turn forbid any changes.
- userbinator 9y ago
  They want to never touch it ever. They want it to work and they want never having to ever think about it. This is perhaps the polar-opposite of what IIoT provides today, requiring constant configuration and security patches. Indeed, I would extend that to all technology in general today --- software that seems to need constant updating and is in a state of flux, wondering what else is going to get broken with the next update, etc. Anything web-based has a particularly high churn. It's actually quite unsettling even for someone who isn't running an industrial process but just wants to use their computer to get stuff done. The lifetime of a lot of industrial process equipment is measured in decades, and maintenance/downtime is very infrequent. Continuous reliability is more important than latest and greatest.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Only moments ago, a new Windows 10 update killed my VirtualBox, forcing me to also upgrade VirtualBox to the newest available version. Fortunately the VB folks seem to care a lot about backwards compatibility - I'd be royally pissed if I had to also rebuild the guest system from scratch on a Sunday morning... The point being, I see why constant updates are a necessity for anything Internet-connected - but it doesn't make me hate auto-updates any less. > Continuous reliability is more important than latest and greatest. For me, as a user and developer, this holds too, but what can one do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
joezydeco 9y ago
I currently working in foodservice equipment, and I'll concur with this. The problem with IoT isn't the backend. There are plenty of companies that figured out the servers, ingestion, security, dashboarding, etc. The problem is all the nodes. Customers aren't going to replace equipment with newer systems just because it has IoT capabilities, which means you're attempting to retrofit machinery with sensors and connectivity. Or else you wait until the major chain customer has refreshed every single piece of equipment in every store. Set your calendar for 7-10 years and check back in. For retrofitting, every single case is different, it's custom, and 90% of the time it's not easy. And, no, slapping a Raspberry Pi to the side of a milkshake freezer isn't the answer. Some products like Helium are closer, but an array of open-collector GPIOs isn't the answer either. The only way to win here is to be highly vertical and close to your customers not only in business knowledge but actual integration with the equipment makers. I certainly don't see GE, MS, AWS, Google or anyone else really making the commitment to that kind of stuff.
- petra 9y ago
  >> For retrofitting, every single case is different, it's custom, and 90% of the time it's not easy. And, no, slapping a Raspberry Pi to the side of a milkshake freezer isn't the answer. Some products like Helium are closer, but an array of open-collector GPIOs isn't the answer either. >> 90% of the time it's not easy Why ? And maybe the right approach is a marketplace approach ? Say i'm an someone who have created a node for fridge X, at my local town. allow me to upload designs of hardware(or maybe standard programmable hw, what makes sense), software, cables, documentation, maybe verification - and to sell them to anybody, easily. And when someone orders such designs, the marketplace sends him everything fully working with simple installation instructions ?
  - extrapickles 9y ago
    That will work for some of it. Quite a bit of industrial stuff is one offs, were you have the only one(s) in existence. I've made devices for industrial use were the customer only needed 1-5 of them.

by csours 9y ago

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

> All of your pretty analytics won't do jack if all you get back is -999. Things get complicated the closer you get to the metal, so systems are installed and configured to work, and then you back away slowly and don't breathe on it. The risk aversion that some sysadmins feel towards changes is absolutely nothing compared to what floor managers want out of their technology. They want to never touch it ever. They want it to work and they want never having to ever think about it. This is perhaps the polar-opposite of what IIoT provides today, requiring constant configuration and security patches. And GE and others are still wondering somehow why the tech isn't taking off.

_pmf_ 9y ago
> They want to never touch it ever. They are prohibited from touching it because vendors of equipment that is part of the assembly line have contract clauses that can bankrupt them within hours when equipment fails and cannot be repaired or replaced within 2 hours, so they in turn forbid any changes.
userbinator 9y ago
They want to never touch it ever. They want it to work and they want never having to ever think about it. This is perhaps the polar-opposite of what IIoT provides today, requiring constant configuration and security patches. Indeed, I would extend that to all technology in general today --- software that seems to need constant updating and is in a state of flux, wondering what else is going to get broken with the next update, etc. Anything web-based has a particularly high churn. It's actually quite unsettling even for someone who isn't running an industrial process but just wants to use their computer to get stuff done. The lifetime of a lot of industrial process equipment is measured in decades, and maintenance/downtime is very infrequent. Continuous reliability is more important than latest and greatest.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Only moments ago, a new Windows 10 update killed my VirtualBox, forcing me to also upgrade VirtualBox to the newest available version. Fortunately the VB folks seem to care a lot about backwards compatibility - I'd be royally pissed if I had to also rebuild the guest system from scratch on a Sunday morning... The point being, I see why constant updates are a necessity for anything Internet-connected - but it doesn't make me hate auto-updates any less. > Continuous reliability is more important than latest and greatest. For me, as a user and developer, this holds too, but what can one do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

joezydeco 9y ago

I currently working in foodservice equipment, and I'll concur with this. The problem with IoT isn't the backend. There are plenty of companies that figured out the servers, ingestion, security, dashboarding, etc. The problem is all the nodes. Customers aren't going to replace equipment with newer systems just because it has IoT capabilities, which means you're attempting to retrofit machinery with sensors and connectivity. Or else you wait until the major chain customer has refreshed every single piece of equipment in every store. Set your calendar for 7-10 years and check back in. For retrofitting, every single case is different, it's custom, and 90% of the time it's not easy. And, no, slapping a Raspberry Pi to the side of a milkshake freezer isn't the answer. Some products like Helium are closer, but an array of open-collector GPIOs isn't the answer either. The only way to win here is to be highly vertical and close to your customers not only in business knowledge but actual integration with the equipment makers. I certainly don't see GE, MS, AWS, Google or anyone else really making the commitment to that kind of stuff.

petra 9y ago
>> For retrofitting, every single case is different, it's custom, and 90% of the time it's not easy. And, no, slapping a Raspberry Pi to the side of a milkshake freezer isn't the answer. Some products like Helium are closer, but an array of open-collector GPIOs isn't the answer either. >> 90% of the time it's not easy Why ? And maybe the right approach is a marketplace approach ? Say i'm an someone who have created a node for fridge X, at my local town. allow me to upload designs of hardware(or maybe standard programmable hw, what makes sense), software, cables, documentation, maybe verification - and to sell them to anybody, easily. And when someone orders such designs, the marketplace sends him everything fully working with simple installation instructions ?
- extrapickles 9y ago
  That will work for some of it. Quite a bit of industrial stuff is one offs, were you have the only one(s) in existence. I've made devices for industrial use were the customer only needed 1-5 of them.