6 ms·

> Even now, engineers are not held in anywhere near the same regard in China as they are in the West. I have to respectfully disagree with the author on the es

by aleyan 9y ago

> Even now, engineers are not held in anywhere near the same regard in China as they are in the West. I have to respectfully disagree with the author on the esteem of engineers in China versus the West. I am not Chinese, nor an expert on their culture, but I do live in the West so I understand half of the equation. Current President of China, Xi Jinping was educated as a chemical engineer[1]. His predecessor Hu Jintao was a hydroelectric engineer[2]. His predecessor Jiang Zemin was an electrical engineer[3]. Compare that with recent American presidents like Obama (JD), Bush(MBA), Clinton(JD), Bush Sr(BA in Econ), Reagan (BA in Econ). These are only a few points, but seems to me it is in China where engineers rise to the highest echelons of power. We have lawyers. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Jinping#Early_life_and_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Jinping#Early_life_and_educ... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_Jintao#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_Jintao#Early_life [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Zemin#Background_and_ascendancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Zemin#Background_and_asc...

samirillian 9y ago
It's the technocracy! I also think that's what Americans didn't like about Hillary Clinton (among other things). She seems to look at governing much more like an engineer.
- theWatcher37 9y ago
  HRC is the farthest from an engineer you will ever see. I'm not sure how anyone with a professional background in engineering could suggest this.
  - jowiar 9y ago
    Deeply deeply disagree (and my background is CS/Software Engineering+Public Policy). She has way more attention to minute policy detail than anyone who has been elected president in the past few decades. And the knowledge of detail is a double edged sword, because it's hard to sell what you know to be an oversimplification (which almost everyone here can relate to).
  - samirillian 9y ago
    She was the furthest from an engineer except for all the other candidates in the field. As I remember, our "real engineer" presidents were Carter and Hoover, both famously ineffectual politicians. So, yeah, I think it's safe to infer a kind of trend.
justicezyx 9y ago
Mr jiangzemin had a paper on the roadmap on it in 2008. In that paper he said the country should invest in GPU and ml&ai. Mr jiangzemin is a true engineer with a huge leadership vision.
- justicezyx 9y ago
  Why this is down voted? The report on this is censored because of political fight.
elefanten 9y ago
That's what they were educated as, but unless I'm mistaken they didn't practice those fields for very long. To end up as president, you have to go through many promotions in the government bureaucracy. Probably stop actually doing engineering work (or whatever) pretty early on. Similar to rising through management ranks in a company. So the author's point could still stand in the context she present it in: where you are not the boss.
ttflee 9y ago
It's no secret that levels of Worker-Peasant-Soldier students were usually inferior than those of who went through merit-based exams.
anovikov 9y ago
This is because China is not a democracy. In a democracy, someone who speaks well is likely to win - and lawyers by definition must be able to speak very well. In China there is a merit-based system which as every merit-based system, has a lot of flaws - so someone able to work through the top of it must be a real hacker. Engineers win hands down over lawyers.
- taway_1212 9y ago
  What? Communist party power dynamics are similar to ones in a gang - i.e. you have someone from the party who managed to seize power and lots of other top party members silently forming cliques and waiting for you to slip, so that they can deliver the blow. The country's people are only chips in the game, if that (often, rulers are toppled not over their policy but over some bullshit doctrinal dispute).
  - ivanhoe 9y ago
    isn't that how any political party works?
    - simonh 9y ago
      Yes, but at the end of the day it's the voters that decide whether you get actual power or not. Imagine if it was the Republican National Committee that appointed the President of the United States. Not just now, but always.
      - justicezyx 9y ago
        Voters decided too in China. Electoral system and people's representatives are about the same level.
        simonh 9y ago
        My wife is Chinese. None of my Chinese relatives has ever had a vote for anyone in government.
Iv 9y ago
Lawyers are advantaged in a democracy where you rise by convincing people. Engineers are advantaged in a meritocracy or in a system that sees itself as a meritocracy as we are probably better at optimizing for an important metric.
- jonathankoren 9y ago
  If you think the communist party doesn't have politics, you are gravely mistaken. Lest we forget the rapid rise and fall of Bo Xilai, or the purging of Zhao Ziyang, or hell even the Gang Of Four and it's on-again-off-again relationship with Deng Xiaoping.
  - Iv 9y ago
    I am not saying they are lacking politics. I am saying that they have less relevant public elections
ivanhoe 9y ago
They were not elected for being engineers, but because of their careers in the party (just as Angela Merkel wasn't elected because of her PhD, politics don't work like that). Article, at least as I understood it, is about the respect that society gives to an ordinary engineer. Is it considered prestigious to be engineer by common people or they view it as just a little better than being a technician or factory worker. I'm not very familiar with China, but I live in an ex-communist country and this resonates with me a lot. Here, back in time of socialism, your mom wouldn't impress any of her friends with your engineering diploma, but for instance if you were a doctor that was a big deal, you were a respected member of society. Have no idea why, I guess it has to do something with the whole "working class" idea of communism that insists on all workers being treated as equal.
- jogundas 9y ago
  AFAIK in the USSR attractiveness of a profession was largely determined by two factors. First, is it possible to take bribes. Second, can one get hands on products that are in short supply. Doctors fall into the first category. Shop workers and sailors (two highly desirable professions in the USSR!) fall into the second. Engineers seem to fall into neither.

by aleyan 9y ago

samirillian 9y ago

It's the technocracy! I also think that's what Americans didn't like about Hillary Clinton (among other things). She seems to look at governing much more like an engineer.

theWatcher37 9y ago
HRC is the farthest from an engineer you will ever see. I'm not sure how anyone with a professional background in engineering could suggest this.
- jowiar 9y ago
  Deeply deeply disagree (and my background is CS/Software Engineering+Public Policy). She has way more attention to minute policy detail than anyone who has been elected president in the past few decades. And the knowledge of detail is a double edged sword, because it's hard to sell what you know to be an oversimplification (which almost everyone here can relate to).
- samirillian 9y ago
  She was the furthest from an engineer except for all the other candidates in the field. As I remember, our "real engineer" presidents were Carter and Hoover, both famously ineffectual politicians. So, yeah, I think it's safe to infer a kind of trend.

justicezyx 9y ago

Mr jiangzemin had a paper on the roadmap on it in 2008. In that paper he said the country should invest in GPU and ml&ai. Mr jiangzemin is a true engineer with a huge leadership vision.

justicezyx 9y ago
Why this is down voted? The report on this is censored because of political fight.

elefanten 9y ago

That's what they were educated as, but unless I'm mistaken they didn't practice those fields for very long. To end up as president, you have to go through many promotions in the government bureaucracy. Probably stop actually doing engineering work (or whatever) pretty early on. Similar to rising through management ranks in a company. So the author's point could still stand in the context she present it in: where you are not the boss.

ttflee 9y ago

It's no secret that levels of Worker-Peasant-Soldier students were usually inferior than those of who went through merit-based exams.

anovikov 9y ago

This is because China is not a democracy. In a democracy, someone who speaks well is likely to win - and lawyers by definition must be able to speak very well. In China there is a merit-based system which as every merit-based system, has a lot of flaws - so someone able to work through the top of it must be a real hacker. Engineers win hands down over lawyers.

taway_1212 9y ago
What? Communist party power dynamics are similar to ones in a gang - i.e. you have someone from the party who managed to seize power and lots of other top party members silently forming cliques and waiting for you to slip, so that they can deliver the blow. The country's people are only chips in the game, if that (often, rulers are toppled not over their policy but over some bullshit doctrinal dispute).
- ivanhoe 9y ago
  isn't that how any political party works?
  - simonh 9y ago
    Yes, but at the end of the day it's the voters that decide whether you get actual power or not. Imagine if it was the Republican National Committee that appointed the President of the United States. Not just now, but always.
    - justicezyx 9y ago
      Voters decided too in China. Electoral system and people's representatives are about the same level.
      - simonh 9y ago
        My wife is Chinese. None of my Chinese relatives has ever had a vote for anyone in government.

Iv 9y ago

Lawyers are advantaged in a democracy where you rise by convincing people. Engineers are advantaged in a meritocracy or in a system that sees itself as a meritocracy as we are probably better at optimizing for an important metric.

jonathankoren 9y ago
If you think the communist party doesn't have politics, you are gravely mistaken. Lest we forget the rapid rise and fall of Bo Xilai, or the purging of Zhao Ziyang, or hell even the Gang Of Four and it's on-again-off-again relationship with Deng Xiaoping.
- Iv 9y ago
  I am not saying they are lacking politics. I am saying that they have less relevant public elections

ivanhoe 9y ago

They were not elected for being engineers, but because of their careers in the party (just as Angela Merkel wasn't elected because of her PhD, politics don't work like that). Article, at least as I understood it, is about the respect that society gives to an ordinary engineer. Is it considered prestigious to be engineer by common people or they view it as just a little better than being a technician or factory worker. I'm not very familiar with China, but I live in an ex-communist country and this resonates with me a lot. Here, back in time of socialism, your mom wouldn't impress any of her friends with your engineering diploma, but for instance if you were a doctor that was a big deal, you were a respected member of society. Have no idea why, I guess it has to do something with the whole "working class" idea of communism that insists on all workers being treated as equal.

jogundas 9y ago
AFAIK in the USSR attractiveness of a profession was largely determined by two factors. First, is it possible to take bribes. Second, can one get hands on products that are in short supply. Doctors fall into the first category. Shop workers and sailors (two highly desirable professions in the USSR!) fall into the second. Engineers seem to fall into neither.