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Berlin Is Becoming a Sponge City [video]
- the-dude 9y agoInteresting, but no new ideas. These rain water management ideas are being implemented for a couple of years now in The Netherlands when developing new real estate.
- mbroncano 9y agoAlso of note, the water system built after the 50's as a result of the recurring floodings in the area [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Works https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Works
- Gravityloss 9y agoIt is such a joy to see a methodical and rational long term planning response to a problem.
- honestoHeminway 9y agoMakes one wish there was a longterm planning organ in a democracy, who could veto on short term solutions.
- vanderZwan 9y agoWhat's your point? They acknowledge taking inspiration from another city where they already implemented this 20 years ago, that these particular ways of coping with climate change are considered proven technology, and that the only thing preventing more wide-spread adoption is political will.
- haakon 9y agoAnd The Netherlands probably got the idea from China: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/oct/01/china-sponge-cities-los-angeles-water-urban-design-drought-floods-urbanisation-rooftop-gardens https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/oct/01...
- vanderZwan 9y agoHopefully they steal good ideas from all over the place. The video mentions swales, which is a mainstay of permaculture, which has been tried out in various ways all over the world since the 70s.
- jorleif 9y agoThese kinds of techniques are often claimed to be effective against flash floods, which makes sense since they slow down water transfer to rivers. Does anyone know any studies about how effective it could be against seriously heavy precipitation of the scale of Harvey or South Asia floods right now? In other words, how well does the approach scale?
- mattferderer 9y agoI don't know of any studies but I would imagine a lot of variables come into play. Soil Type & how deep of soil effects how much water the ground can soak up & how fast the water will run. All would be slower runoff than concrete. Also the slope of the land would make a difference. These are just the obvious ones. Bottlenecks, whether created on purpose or not would have a huge impact. Where I live we have large snowfall in the winter which creates ice jams & flash flooding in the spring. I personally like the idea of this.
- zerohm 9y agoI remember a demonstration from my childhood where water is released into 2 similar models. One model is dry, one model is wet. The water quickly overtakes the dry model and splashes on the other side (as in a flash flood). On the wet model, water takes longer to make it to the other side. Sort of how a wet sponge is far more absorbent than a dry sponge. I know I didn't really answer your question, but these models were made to represent fields and swamps. So yes, I believe there are lots of studies on large scale effects.
- Retric 9y agoEvery inch of rain absorbed makes a rather dramatic difference. Because, floods are moving a lot of water but they also contain a lot of water which is time shifted over a longer period of time. Think of it like a building being evacuated though a stairwell. Being say 10 vs 11 floors can make a significant difference in average wait time. Except average weight time is equivalent to the height of flood waters.
- ethagknight 9y agoCivil engineering has pretty well quantified the rate at which water is absorbed by certain soils, accounting for groundcover, trees, pavement, local detainment, etc. Berlin's sponge mission is baiscially distributed detainment, working to offset hardscaping (driveways and roofing). In other words, it's a well known and very predictable science, but we (we being US land development industry) has not cared. HOWEVER rain at the scale of Harvey cannot practically be planned for beyond "don't build on land that's lower than average"
- ekianjo 9y agoThe video only shows relatively small buildings - would that system work with high rise towers?
- probably_wrong 9y agoNot answering your main question, but the video shows relatively small buildings because that's what Berlin looks like[1]. High rise towers are not very common there. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Berlin_Panorama_Mitte.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Berlin_P...
- F_r_k 9y agoHigh towers have got the same land footprint, so yeah, it would work
- ekianjo 9y agoLand footprint, yes, but they do have higher volume to surface ratios and that should play some role in heat absorption and dissipation I think.
- visarga 9y agoWhat happens to the plants during the summer if there is too little rain? Do they also install watering systems? That would be expensive to maintain.
- b4ux1t3 9y agoWhat generally happens to most wild plants during the summer? Most of them can survive a few dry spells.
- ninju 9y agoThe problem you are talking about is different and can be solved with traditional means (i.e. sprinklers) if needed. But due the fact the prior rain water is present on site for a longer time instead of being drained off in sewers they may not need to run the sprinklers as often (another benefit!)
- hibbelig 9y agoThis is Berlin! Too little rain? I don't think so.
- russdill 9y agoThe suitability and cost of the technique will vary by climate.
- wongarsu 9y agoThe grass areas will need occasional watering in the summer, but most of the plants shown look like robust native species that can survive summer without problems
- dom0 9y agoBerlin was a sump before becoming a city, it still has ground water almost up to ground level in some areas. Has a bunch of pumping stations to lower ground water, too.
- s3nnyy 9y agoNice project, it makes Berlin appear like a progressive, nice place to live. But actually it has so many problems that should be solved first before even thinking about things like this. For instance total failure to integrate the Muslim minority, increasing racism against Jews (Men usually wear a baseball-cap over the Kippah in public due to fear of being beaten up), prices that double each 7-10 years while salaries stay the same and an angry lower-middle class that thinks Politicians don't understand anything.
- fgjjgutjvnu 9y agoCompletely unrelated issues, it seems to me. Even unintegrated Muslims and persecuted Jews benefit from a cooler city. Prices could probably rise even more, though, if the sponge approach makes the city more attractive.
- throwawayknecht 9y ago> increasing racism against Jews This is true. > Men usually wear a baseball-cap over the Kippah in public But this is right-wing bullshit. The rise in anti-Semitic crimes is used by Pegida to stir up fear of refugees, Muslims, and Islam, and it's also used by Netanyahu and the Israeli / Jewish right to encourage immigration to Israel. The reality is that the rise in anti-Semitism begins in 2014, prior to the refugee crisis. It's tracked the Europe-wide rise of the right, not anything related to "Muslim integration" (which in turn is often a code-word for not letting other people wear other kinds of head coverings). Much of it is even linked to Pegida-adjacent groups or people.
- cobookman 9y agoHe never said refugees. I'd also comment France and other eu countries have done no better with their newer Muslim populations
- lorenzfx 9y agoThis study [0] (sorry it's in German, English reporting on it: [1, 2]) supports your claim that integration is more or less equally bad across the studied countries. Different countries fail at different aspects of it. [0] http://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/BSt/Publikationen/GrauePublikationen/Studie_LW_Religionsmonitor-2017_Muslime-in-Europa.pdf http://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/BSt/Publi... [1] https://www.thelocal.de/20170824/integration-of-muslims-better-in-germany-than-in-rest-of-europe https://www.thelocal.de/20170824/integration-of-muslims-bett... [2] http://www.politico.eu/article/muslims-integrate-in-europe-despite-discrimination-study/ http://www.politico.eu/article/muslims-integrate-in-europe-d... EDIT: originally I misread that OP claimed that other countries did better, changed wording accordingly
- doener 9y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15128428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15128428
- asciimo 9y agoMy first thought is that it might be hard to prevent decay and leaks into the structures supporting these spongy surfaces. 80cm of water logged soil above a parking garage, for example.
- wongarsu 9y agoPlanting grass on top of parking garages isn't that unusual or new in Germany (though usually done for aesthetic reasons), so I assume this is a solved problem. Sufficiently deep buildings and parking garages might also encounter ground water, so adding soil on top might not even add new problems to the engineering side. Similarly, the rooftop plants are shown on rooftop designs that would already have to deal with stagnating water
- mkesper 9y agoMunicipalities can (and commonly do) grant a reduction of fees for reducing sealed soil, so it's not only aesthetic reasons. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederschlagswassergeb%C3%BChr https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederschlagswassergeb%C3%BChr
- sologoub 9y agoThe renderings they are showing for newer plans (at 1:27 of the video) seem to indicate a soil later running a long the wall of the building, in addition to the roof. As the result water would naturally travel down that wall and into the surrounding soil, preventing the buildup on the roof and negating need for a traditional drain. That said, what would be required to make sure no barrier formed, say from the roots system or something else is really hard to say. You'd also need some sort of lining that would prevent the moisture from being obsorbed by the building materials themselves.
- erikb 9y agofunny just watched this yesterday night. Was really surprised by it. When you live in Berlin it's not something you see that yet. But of course Berlin is a more green city than something of the size of New York just by being smaller.