5 ms·

I failed to prevent my kid from going to college

41 points by galfarragem 9y ago

michaelmcdonald 9y ago
> Why spend it doing homework and learning nothing and getting in debt? Wait...really? You think that everyone that goes to a four year higher education institution learns nothing? I think I can see why you have a problem with college...
- mcny 9y ago
  > Wait...really? You think that everyone that goes to a four year higher education institution learns nothing? I think I can see why you have a problem with college... I have a BS in Mathematics. I don't remember any of my abstract algebra, barely remember some real analysis, don't have a clue about complex analysis or pde (actually I am not sure if pde is partial derivative equations or not without actually googling it first which I am avoiding to make a point). I couldn't write a SN1, E1, SN2, E2 from organic one if my life depended on it. Things I do remember? LDL the first L stands for Loser so it is the bad kind. That means HDL is the good kind (don't know the context but I think it is about fat in nutrition). Oh and that we tend to remember strange things like a hippo walking through the campus quad because it gets stored in the hippocampus (which is below the cerebral cortex?) of our brain. I did pretty well in college. Besides my sophomore slump, I was on the Dean's List six out of eight semesters. I was a department tutor who helped others with their studies/background work to prepare for class. I tried to do everything right. And yet, I don't think we retain most of the facts we study in college. I will concede though that it is not easy to learn anything in my "spare time" when you work full-time though. I mean it might be possible if you can leave your work at work but if you're a programmer, you really can't do that. It still gnaws you in the back of your head. (Again, I hope I am in the minority and that most people are able to leave work at work).
  - jdhzzz 9y ago
    I've been in industry 40 years and can think of 2 times I directly used what I learned as part of my job. 1. Calculating the temperature distribution across a fiber being heated by air (spoiler: it's uniform). 2. Calculating the annual rate of return from an investment from an Sybase SQL server without resorting to a procedural process, i.e. using only the ln, exp, and sum functions available. The second really goes back to high school math so doesn't count as a reason to go to college.
- tdb7893 9y ago
  In my experience only maybe half of people actually use much of what they learned in college in their job. Many people don't end up in what their degree was and also many jobs are learned primarily through job experience. If you think about it most people learn more practical skills in the first year of having a job than in 4 years of college. I think that when people spend such a large chunk of their time and money on something they expect a little more results and he is exaggerating because he is frustrated with it.
  - alistairSH 9y ago
    ...only maybe half of people actually use much of what they learned in college in their job... And that's part of the problem with the current anti-college movement (for lack of a better descriptor). Adherents tend to think college is an expensive 4-year job training program. But, it's not about job training. It's about broadening your horizons, learning things you might not otherwise learn, challenging your core beliefs about life and society. If you enter college with the sole goal of exiting with a high-paying job, I would argue you are doing it wrong. Instead, take some time to study things you find interesting. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
    - kthejoker2 9y ago
      I mean, to their point, by your own definition college would be a RIDICULOUSLY expensive 4 year horizon broadening, belief challenging system. Also your idea of college would sound twee and naive to anyone 50 years ago.
      - alistairSH 9y ago
        College wasn't as expensive just a few decades ago. That is definitely a problem. Forgoing an education isn't the solution. As for sounding twee, I don't disagree. College has been viewed as a path to a career for quite some time now. Which is fine, other than that shouldn't be the sole reason for an education. Or the sole focus of a person's early adulthood.
frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
It ends very sweetly but the first 3/4 gave me the distinct impression that his child is a lot smarter than he is when it comes to weighing the costs and benefits of college.
libeclipse 9y ago
tl;dr the rantings of some dude that did poorly in his own time at college and thinks all it consists of is liberal arts degrees Note: I'm a university student in the UK, studying a serious technical degree. I'm not sure if this level is equivalent to "college" in the US, I assume so.
- 0x27081990 9y ago
  I used to think the same as you when I still was a student. “How can these people critize the wonders of college? I’m learning so much!”. Then I realized I learnt nothing. Disclaimer: it wasn’t a fancy college, but still. I just think education needs some sort of revolution
- dhimes 9y ago
  Yes, it's equivalent. Thanks for saving me the time to read the piece. Good luck with your studies.
- alistairSH 9y ago
  I'm not sure if this level is equivalent to "college" in the US, I assume so. In a broad sense, yes. But, there's more to it. In the US, there are several tiers of colleges... - Community Colleges: offer 2-year (associates) degrees. Frequently serve as a launching point for entry into a 4-year program (if direct entry wasn't an option due to lackluster performance in high school). Also frequently offer vocational degrees (network and system admin, skilled trades, etc). - College: Offer 4-year (Bachelors) degrees. Typically do NOT offer post-graduate degrees. - University: Offer 4-year AND post-graduate (or professional) degrees. It's not a hard and fast rule - The College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, VA) is one of the best universities in the nation and it's name is basically a historical anomaly. The majority of colleges in the US are probably equivalent to the UK's polytechnics and other newer universities (vs the UK's ancient universities, which are closer to our Ivy League + a few other select research universities). Edit - As it relates to this guy's blog, if he attended a top-tier university and found it was a waste of time, he was likely not mature enough to take advantage of its offerings.
- blusterXY 9y ago
  James Altucher studied computer science, not liberal arts.
AdamJeffe 9y ago
It's hard for me to judge since i don't live in USA. He's got some points, but i have a feeling it's also a lot about father "losing" his daughter to adult world.
spodek 9y ago
Ironically, one can teach active, experiential courses that teach skills. As a professor at an elite school, I can say from experience that you wouldn't believe how hard it is to get the administration to support such classes, though. The administrative structure is designed to teach factual recall and abstract analysis that don't develop skills useful for life or work. Professors who publish or perish learn to publish. It being the skill they have, they teach it. Not many professions benefit from publishing as your primary skill. Nor citizenship, adulthood, or happiness.
throwaway613834 9y ago
> I’m not sure why this would be the case. I majored in Computer Science. But I didn’t get interested from class. > I didn’t fall in love with reading until I was about 22. After college. I read and I wrote every day and I haven’t stopped since. > Maybe it’s just me. But I have never learned about anything I wasn’t interested in. > My first job: I was a computer programmer at HBO. I was so bad that they had to send me to REMEDIAL school > My passionate interests have changed 30 times since I graduated college. > (etc.) "I" this, "I" that, "I" see, "I" don't see, "I" can, "I" can't, "I" foo, "I" bar, "I" phone, "I" pad, "I" pod... therefore my daughter (and presumably many, many others) clearly shouldn't go to college. Does reading all this not bother anyone else? Call me cynical, but one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most people are like yourself. Another thing it teaches you is that if you want to argue "everyone is doing it wrong", you should provide hard evidence for it. It's extremely frustrating to see individuals trying so hard to generalize from their own 1 sample of anecdata when civilization has come to the conclusion that higher education is a valuable thing over the past 1,700+ years. Edit: On the plus side, I have to say, though, props to him for being honest about the "I". For every person that says "I think X is true" there are a dozen other louder people who omit the first half of the sentence.
- anotherbrownguy 9y ago
  >Call me cynical, but one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most people are like yourself. That's like the one thing that it doesn't teach you. Everyone is expected to be interested in the same selection of things and learn the same things in the same way or not get good grades.
  - throwaway613834 9y ago
    >> one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most people are like yourself. > That's like the one thing that it doesn't teach you. Huh? You didn't get to know people who weren't like yourself?
    - mikulas_florek 9y ago
wsc981 9y ago
Personally I think college was a waste of time as well and my time would have been better spent working at some company. I would probably have learned more and wouldn't have had 21.000 EUR debt. I would also have earned more money. And I also believe I would have been a better developer as well. On the other hand, I also believe it's much more easy to get an software engineering job without a degree compared to many other jobs. For most jobs, I do think college or university is pretty much mandatory.
- dagw 9y ago
  I thought college was a waste of time the first time around, and dropped out after a year. The second time around, after having spent a few years working, I not only saw much more value in the things I was learning, but understood the relative values of the different courses on offer. So in hindsight I'm really glad both that I didn't persevere and push through the first time around and even more glad that I decided to eventually go back. In fact, if I where king, I might require at least 12 month work experience before allowing people to apply for university.
  - taylodl 9y ago
    This is precisely the path I took as well. When I went back to college I'd lost the hubris and was well aware of what I didn't know. It was a much better experience and I learned a lot.
dudul 9y ago
I was lucky enough to go to college in Europe, where it's basically free, to study something that can be transposed anywhere (CS, as opposed to for example law). I then moved to the US debt free. I'm in my late 30's and I own (as in "no mortgage") my house, while most of my coworkers (some in their 40s) are still paying off their student loan and have to live with 2 or 3 other roommates. I'm all for good education, and obviously not the best judge since I didn't go to college in the US, but I don't get how this is a good deal for students. Especially when one knows that the cost of tuition is mostly artificial (I think there were a few good articles about that on the front page of HN recently).
- lol768 9y ago
  > I was lucky enough to go to college in Europe, where it's basically free This is not at all the case in England unfortunately - I guess I really should've considered studying elsewhere in the EU where fees are better. With that said, I still think I've got a better deal than most US students since the fees there just seem to be ridiculous. > I then moved to the US debt free This is something I've considered, but I feel like I'd miss being an EU citizen, the NHS and the culture etc. How have you found it since you moved, if you don't mind me asking?
  - dudul 9y ago
    I'm still a EU citizen, I just live in the US :) Health insurance is definitely the most mind-blowing thing to me as a non-American. Even after more than 10 years I just don't get how people can put up with this crazyness. I've been lucky to never be unemployed, and I always had good coverage so it's never really been a concern. I miss a few things from Europe, and there are things I have troubles getting use to in America. The omnipresence of consumerism is a little difficult to deal with. But otherwise, a lot of great things. And professionally, I wouldn't have achieved half what I did had I stayed in Europe.
- blusterXY 9y ago
  You were supposed to stay in Europe so your taxes could cover the cost of your education, not move to a locale where your take-home pay is higher because you get out of doing that.
_ZeD_ 9y ago
Am I the only one who has gone at the university because it was fun? Onestly it was the richer time I spent of my life
- itg 9y ago
  Yeah, created some great friends, have an amazing professional network, was able to do research with professors, and took classes in areas I wouldn't have thought to otherwise and the environment can't be replicated online. This isn't to say that college is for everyone, but I don't regret my experience one bit.
geetfun 9y ago
As someone who went to university and got an advanced degree, I can relate with what he's saying. Nowadays, I no longer directly utilize the skills and knowledge I gained from my 8+ years in school. But at the same time, the way I think couldn't have ended up this way if my journey didn't go through formal education. My parents and those around me weren't educated enough to point me in the right direction such that I would end up with a more educated mindset. And I certainly don't think I was born smart enough to have gotten here myself without the exposure I had while at school. Having kids as well, I question too the merit of sending them when they reach university age. My perspective, of course, has changed given the fact that I have now arrived, mentally, at a more educated state to know that formal education is only one of many answers. It's hard to say whether my kids could too arrive to a more educated state without the years of formal structure to encourage that growth, despite their parents being educated. Similar to others who have supported going to university, I think it may not be a bad idea to support it still. I would say, however, that perhaps it's important to go understanding that education there is merely one of many perspectives.
lanestp 9y ago
I used to think CS was the exception to my college is worthless philosophy. Then I started dealing with recent graduates. The quality of the education coming out of supposedly decent schools is abysmal. I think modern college is proving itself particularly ill suited for the modern job market. They are teaching out of date skills at a glacial pace. In fact, it’s gotten bad enough that I don’t even ask about whether a candidate has a degree, they are simply irrelevant.
- dagw 9y ago
  I used to think CS was the exception to my college is worthless philosophy. I think traditional CS is a good example of "college is worthless" if your goal in life is to become a 'normal' developer or developing 'normal' apps. I think modern college is proving itself particularly ill suited for the modern job market. In general or only for programmers? I generally find that the recently graduated civil engineers and architects I meet at work seem reasonably well educated to start working on real projects fairly quickly. Certainly much more so than any self educated engineer or architect might be.
oddlyaromatic 9y ago
I did a BA and an MA in the arts. I don't work in the arts now, 10 years later, but on a daily basis I see how that experience gave me tools and skills I didn't have at the end of high school that help me succeed. Just in terms of professionalism, communication skills, and being exposed to new ideas and challenged about how I see the world. As well as, occasionally, a specific piece of knowledge being useful (eg I'll do musical transcriptions from time to time). I was a disaster coming out of high school, and college was the ideal environment for me to become more independent and less of a jerk. I almost studied commuter science, but ended up picking music and English, which has led me such different and interesting places. One caveat: I come from a country where you don't have to go into debt to attend college. This frames the experience very differently, I think.
arethuza 9y ago
I can't imagine anything more likely to make a teenager want to go to college than a parent saying that they shouldn't! My wife's parents didn't want her to go to University and only changed their minds once she became a barrister (advocate here in Scotland).
lordnacho 9y ago
It's weird how a lot of people think they didn't learn anything in college. I thought so too, just after finishing. Now I can think of a lot of things that I maybe didn't learn very well, but I heard of in college. - Some guy writes about Bayesian networks. Lo and behold, I remember doing it in college. - Someone floated the "20 most important equations" meme and I've seen them all at college or at work. I can't say much about each of them, but I definitely saw them and know roughly what they are about. - Coding. We did some of that in uni, though not in depth the way I do now. - Pretty much every economics topic you see in a newspaper. It wasn't that much of a waste of time. Kinda like a buffet where you try a few things so you know they exist, which perhaps is what college is supposed to be. Having to prep for exams killed the joy though.
waylandsmithers 9y ago
The mantra has always been "College isn't for everyone". I think some people have assumed this was pejorative and just directed at bad students or the poor, but there is much more to it. Maybe college isn't for you _right now_. Maybe you don't know what you want to study yet. Maybe you aren't yet mature enough to leave home. Or maybe money is a factor. But "Don't go to college" to me seems as naive as "Everbody should go to college."
- dagw 9y ago
  Maybe college isn't for you _right now_. I wish this would get more traction. The number of 17-18 year olds who know what they want to get out of college is probably tiny. Ideally going to college straight after high school should really be the exception rather then the rule.
elitro 9y ago
This topic tends to show up every now and then here in HN. If we ignore all the obvious benefits (learn the trade, self-discipline, etc...) that you may or may not obtain from your studies, one of the most relevant arguments i've seen discussed in here is the connections and friendships. College is a great place to make critical connections that can get you into nice jobs or lifelong friendships that will last as long as you foster them. Sure, working a job can also open those doors of oportunity, but if you are working as a waitress like the author suggested, i just can't see how that can help you direct your career or give you meaningful CV experience. I have been very fortunate for having parents which pushed me into college and ensured i finished it (i didn't make it easy, sadly ) but the payout has been worth it. It also deppends on your country (some value the diploma more than others, mine does) but at least it should help you get an interview, which is good enough. Ultimately, i believe the person should make the choice. And he, as the father, should explain both courses of action to his daughter, instead of pushing her into one direction just because going to college didn't work out for him as great as he wanted to.
skywhopper 9y ago
tl;dr: The author didn't enjoy his college experience, so he believes no one else will or can or should even try. For me, college was an important stepping stone to personal responsibility and a real career. The cliched (if not actually all that typical) four-year away-from-home college degree can serve as a transitional period from complete dependence to independence. That's not how the political sphere talks about higher education, and the author denigrates that idea as "extended childhood", but I think it serves a valuable purpose for those lucky enough to experience it. Yes, it's outrageously expensive, yes student loans are a growing drag on the economy, and yes far too many people are excluded, and yes it's not for everyone. But it's a core part of our society, and it can't just be dismissed as unimportant because you had a bad personal experience.
- RationPhantoms 9y ago
  I definitely agree that college can be a boon for young-adult social development but I think that should be where the focus is and not the pseudo-benefits of an over-valued degree.
gus_massa 9y ago
I couldn't find which degree she wants. For some areas a degree is essential. In other areas is a waste of time an money.
5trokerac3 9y ago
I have no doubt that college can be a great learning experience, but is it really worth the cost to the average person? Is getting into debt that most likely won't be payed off until their mid-thirties worth what they're getting in return? Like any investment, you have to see a return that justifies the cost, and I don't think the higher education system in the US is providing that right now for most career paths.
- RationPhantoms 9y ago
  I think a hybrid environment of the frugalness of community college coupled with an apprenticeship is the way to fix this. I agree with you that it's more of a social stigma that you didn't go to college nowadays. And I also do not believe in 80% of cases that the success of a bachelor's degree justifies the cost.
vidanay 9y ago
Very interesting. I don't have a college degree, but I do have a well established and successful career as a senior software developer. And yet, literally this week I am submitting applications to multiple universities in order to complete my CS degree (I have about a years worth of credit). I am doing this on the recommendation of my management as well as the encouragement of my wife. Is it going to be easy? Nope. Is it going to be worth it? I sure hope so.
lookACamel 9y ago
College/uni provides a special type of social environment that you can't get anywhere else. Just stating a fact. Whether that fact is important is up to the individual.
aryamaan 9y ago
I know the author is taking in the context of US colleges and I am from India but I do want to put the effect of the college in my life. In my entire childhood, we have been very poor financially but my brother and I managed to get good grades throughout our school. That allowed us to study in reputed colleges in the country and therefore, enabled us to get high paying jobs. Just because of this advantage, I will always be grateful to colleges and education, in general. And not to forget the indirect benefits like life long friendships, a good professional network among others.
Mz 9y ago
If I was his kid, I wouldn't listen to him either. His kid no doubt knows what a blowhard he is. I dropped out of college at age twenty. I went back later. Neither of my sons felt compelled to go. It is fine to argue against the idea that young people should feel compelled to go to college and to catalog the fact that people have a lot of erroneous ideas about college. It is not so cool to try to actively campaign against college as an option.

41 points by galfarragem 9y ago

> Why spend it doing homework and learning nothing and getting in debt? Wait...really? You think that everyone that goes to a four year higher education institution learns nothing? I think I can see why you have a problem with college...

mcny 9y ago
> Wait...really? You think that everyone that goes to a four year higher education institution learns nothing? I think I can see why you have a problem with college... I have a BS in Mathematics. I don't remember any of my abstract algebra, barely remember some real analysis, don't have a clue about complex analysis or pde (actually I am not sure if pde is partial derivative equations or not without actually googling it first which I am avoiding to make a point). I couldn't write a SN1, E1, SN2, E2 from organic one if my life depended on it. Things I do remember? LDL the first L stands for Loser so it is the bad kind. That means HDL is the good kind (don't know the context but I think it is about fat in nutrition). Oh and that we tend to remember strange things like a hippo walking through the campus quad because it gets stored in the hippocampus (which is below the cerebral cortex?) of our brain. I did pretty well in college. Besides my sophomore slump, I was on the Dean's List six out of eight semesters. I was a department tutor who helped others with their studies/background work to prepare for class. I tried to do everything right. And yet, I don't think we retain most of the facts we study in college. I will concede though that it is not easy to learn anything in my "spare time" when you work full-time though. I mean it might be possible if you can leave your work at work but if you're a programmer, you really can't do that. It still gnaws you in the back of your head. (Again, I hope I am in the minority and that most people are able to leave work at work).
- jdhzzz 9y ago
  I've been in industry 40 years and can think of 2 times I directly used what I learned as part of my job. 1. Calculating the temperature distribution across a fiber being heated by air (spoiler: it's uniform). 2. Calculating the annual rate of return from an investment from an Sybase SQL server without resorting to a procedural process, i.e. using only the ln, exp, and sum functions available. The second really goes back to high school math so doesn't count as a reason to go to college.
tdb7893 9y ago
In my experience only maybe half of people actually use much of what they learned in college in their job. Many people don't end up in what their degree was and also many jobs are learned primarily through job experience. If you think about it most people learn more practical skills in the first year of having a job than in 4 years of college. I think that when people spend such a large chunk of their time and money on something they expect a little more results and he is exaggerating because he is frustrated with it.
- alistairSH 9y ago
  ...only maybe half of people actually use much of what they learned in college in their job... And that's part of the problem with the current anti-college movement (for lack of a better descriptor). Adherents tend to think college is an expensive 4-year job training program. But, it's not about job training. It's about broadening your horizons, learning things you might not otherwise learn, challenging your core beliefs about life and society. If you enter college with the sole goal of exiting with a high-paying job, I would argue you are doing it wrong. Instead, take some time to study things you find interesting. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
  - kthejoker2 9y ago
    I mean, to their point, by your own definition college would be a RIDICULOUSLY expensive 4 year horizon broadening, belief challenging system. Also your idea of college would sound twee and naive to anyone 50 years ago.
    - alistairSH 9y ago
      College wasn't as expensive just a few decades ago. That is definitely a problem. Forgoing an education isn't the solution. As for sounding twee, I don't disagree. College has been viewed as a path to a career for quite some time now. Which is fine, other than that shouldn't be the sole reason for an education. Or the sole focus of a person's early adulthood.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

It ends very sweetly but the first 3/4 gave me the distinct impression that his child is a lot smarter than he is when it comes to weighing the costs and benefits of college.

libeclipse 9y ago

tl;dr the rantings of some dude that did poorly in his own time at college and thinks all it consists of is liberal arts degrees Note: I'm a university student in the UK, studying a serious technical degree. I'm not sure if this level is equivalent to "college" in the US, I assume so.

0x27081990 9y ago
I used to think the same as you when I still was a student. “How can these people critize the wonders of college? I’m learning so much!”. Then I realized I learnt nothing. Disclaimer: it wasn’t a fancy college, but still. I just think education needs some sort of revolution
dhimes 9y ago
Yes, it's equivalent. Thanks for saving me the time to read the piece. Good luck with your studies.
alistairSH 9y ago
I'm not sure if this level is equivalent to "college" in the US, I assume so. In a broad sense, yes. But, there's more to it. In the US, there are several tiers of colleges... - Community Colleges: offer 2-year (associates) degrees. Frequently serve as a launching point for entry into a 4-year program (if direct entry wasn't an option due to lackluster performance in high school). Also frequently offer vocational degrees (network and system admin, skilled trades, etc). - College: Offer 4-year (Bachelors) degrees. Typically do NOT offer post-graduate degrees. - University: Offer 4-year AND post-graduate (or professional) degrees. It's not a hard and fast rule - The College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, VA) is one of the best universities in the nation and it's name is basically a historical anomaly. The majority of colleges in the US are probably equivalent to the UK's polytechnics and other newer universities (vs the UK's ancient universities, which are closer to our Ivy League + a few other select research universities). Edit - As it relates to this guy's blog, if he attended a top-tier university and found it was a waste of time, he was likely not mature enough to take advantage of its offerings.
blusterXY 9y ago
James Altucher studied computer science, not liberal arts.

AdamJeffe 9y ago

It's hard for me to judge since i don't live in USA. He's got some points, but i have a feeling it's also a lot about father "losing" his daughter to adult world.

spodek 9y ago

Ironically, one can teach active, experiential courses that teach skills. As a professor at an elite school, I can say from experience that you wouldn't believe how hard it is to get the administration to support such classes, though. The administrative structure is designed to teach factual recall and abstract analysis that don't develop skills useful for life or work. Professors who publish or perish learn to publish. It being the skill they have, they teach it. Not many professions benefit from publishing as your primary skill. Nor citizenship, adulthood, or happiness.

throwaway613834 9y ago

> I’m not sure why this would be the case. I majored in Computer Science. But I didn’t get interested from class. > I didn’t fall in love with reading until I was about 22. After college. I read and I wrote every day and I haven’t stopped since. > Maybe it’s just me. But I have never learned about anything I wasn’t interested in. > My first job: I was a computer programmer at HBO. I was so bad that they had to send me to REMEDIAL school > My passionate interests have changed 30 times since I graduated college. > (etc.) "I" this, "I" that, "I" see, "I" don't see, "I" can, "I" can't, "I" foo, "I" bar, "I" phone, "I" pad, "I" pod... therefore my daughter (and presumably many, many others) clearly shouldn't go to college. Does reading all this not bother anyone else? Call me cynical, but one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most people are like yourself. Another thing it teaches you is that if you want to argue "everyone is doing it wrong", you should provide hard evidence for it. It's extremely frustrating to see individuals trying so hard to generalize from their own 1 sample of anecdata when civilization has come to the conclusion that higher education is a valuable thing over the past 1,700+ years. Edit: On the plus side, I have to say, though, props to him for being honest about the "I". For every person that says "I think X is true" there are a dozen other louder people who omit the first half of the sentence.

anotherbrownguy 9y ago
>Call me cynical, but one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most people are like yourself. That's like the one thing that it doesn't teach you. Everyone is expected to be interested in the same selection of things and learn the same things in the same way or not get good grades.
- throwaway613834 9y ago
  >> one thing college teaches you is to avoid assuming most people are like yourself. > That's like the one thing that it doesn't teach you. Huh? You didn't get to know people who weren't like yourself?
  - mikulas_florek 9y ago

wsc981 9y ago

Personally I think college was a waste of time as well and my time would have been better spent working at some company. I would probably have learned more and wouldn't have had 21.000 EUR debt. I would also have earned more money. And I also believe I would have been a better developer as well. On the other hand, I also believe it's much more easy to get an software engineering job without a degree compared to many other jobs. For most jobs, I do think college or university is pretty much mandatory.

dagw 9y ago
I thought college was a waste of time the first time around, and dropped out after a year. The second time around, after having spent a few years working, I not only saw much more value in the things I was learning, but understood the relative values of the different courses on offer. So in hindsight I'm really glad both that I didn't persevere and push through the first time around and even more glad that I decided to eventually go back. In fact, if I where king, I might require at least 12 month work experience before allowing people to apply for university.
- taylodl 9y ago
  This is precisely the path I took as well. When I went back to college I'd lost the hubris and was well aware of what I didn't know. It was a much better experience and I learned a lot.

dudul 9y ago

I was lucky enough to go to college in Europe, where it's basically free, to study something that can be transposed anywhere (CS, as opposed to for example law). I then moved to the US debt free. I'm in my late 30's and I own (as in "no mortgage") my house, while most of my coworkers (some in their 40s) are still paying off their student loan and have to live with 2 or 3 other roommates. I'm all for good education, and obviously not the best judge since I didn't go to college in the US, but I don't get how this is a good deal for students. Especially when one knows that the cost of tuition is mostly artificial (I think there were a few good articles about that on the front page of HN recently).

lol768 9y ago
> I was lucky enough to go to college in Europe, where it's basically free This is not at all the case in England unfortunately - I guess I really should've considered studying elsewhere in the EU where fees are better. With that said, I still think I've got a better deal than most US students since the fees there just seem to be ridiculous. > I then moved to the US debt free This is something I've considered, but I feel like I'd miss being an EU citizen, the NHS and the culture etc. How have you found it since you moved, if you don't mind me asking?
- dudul 9y ago
  I'm still a EU citizen, I just live in the US :) Health insurance is definitely the most mind-blowing thing to me as a non-American. Even after more than 10 years I just don't get how people can put up with this crazyness. I've been lucky to never be unemployed, and I always had good coverage so it's never really been a concern. I miss a few things from Europe, and there are things I have troubles getting use to in America. The omnipresence of consumerism is a little difficult to deal with. But otherwise, a lot of great things. And professionally, I wouldn't have achieved half what I did had I stayed in Europe.
blusterXY 9y ago
You were supposed to stay in Europe so your taxes could cover the cost of your education, not move to a locale where your take-home pay is higher because you get out of doing that.

_ZeD_ 9y ago

Am I the only one who has gone at the university because it was fun? Onestly it was the richer time I spent of my life

itg 9y ago
Yeah, created some great friends, have an amazing professional network, was able to do research with professors, and took classes in areas I wouldn't have thought to otherwise and the environment can't be replicated online. This isn't to say that college is for everyone, but I don't regret my experience one bit.

geetfun 9y ago

As someone who went to university and got an advanced degree, I can relate with what he's saying. Nowadays, I no longer directly utilize the skills and knowledge I gained from my 8+ years in school. But at the same time, the way I think couldn't have ended up this way if my journey didn't go through formal education. My parents and those around me weren't educated enough to point me in the right direction such that I would end up with a more educated mindset. And I certainly don't think I was born smart enough to have gotten here myself without the exposure I had while at school. Having kids as well, I question too the merit of sending them when they reach university age. My perspective, of course, has changed given the fact that I have now arrived, mentally, at a more educated state to know that formal education is only one of many answers. It's hard to say whether my kids could too arrive to a more educated state without the years of formal structure to encourage that growth, despite their parents being educated. Similar to others who have supported going to university, I think it may not be a bad idea to support it still. I would say, however, that perhaps it's important to go understanding that education there is merely one of many perspectives.

lanestp 9y ago

I used to think CS was the exception to my college is worthless philosophy. Then I started dealing with recent graduates. The quality of the education coming out of supposedly decent schools is abysmal. I think modern college is proving itself particularly ill suited for the modern job market. They are teaching out of date skills at a glacial pace. In fact, it’s gotten bad enough that I don’t even ask about whether a candidate has a degree, they are simply irrelevant.

dagw 9y ago
I used to think CS was the exception to my college is worthless philosophy. I think traditional CS is a good example of "college is worthless" if your goal in life is to become a 'normal' developer or developing 'normal' apps. I think modern college is proving itself particularly ill suited for the modern job market. In general or only for programmers? I generally find that the recently graduated civil engineers and architects I meet at work seem reasonably well educated to start working on real projects fairly quickly. Certainly much more so than any self educated engineer or architect might be.

oddlyaromatic 9y ago

I did a BA and an MA in the arts. I don't work in the arts now, 10 years later, but on a daily basis I see how that experience gave me tools and skills I didn't have at the end of high school that help me succeed. Just in terms of professionalism, communication skills, and being exposed to new ideas and challenged about how I see the world. As well as, occasionally, a specific piece of knowledge being useful (eg I'll do musical transcriptions from time to time). I was a disaster coming out of high school, and college was the ideal environment for me to become more independent and less of a jerk. I almost studied commuter science, but ended up picking music and English, which has led me such different and interesting places. One caveat: I come from a country where you don't have to go into debt to attend college. This frames the experience very differently, I think.

arethuza 9y ago

I can't imagine anything more likely to make a teenager want to go to college than a parent saying that they shouldn't! My wife's parents didn't want her to go to University and only changed their minds once she became a barrister (advocate here in Scotland).

lordnacho 9y ago

It's weird how a lot of people think they didn't learn anything in college. I thought so too, just after finishing. Now I can think of a lot of things that I maybe didn't learn very well, but I heard of in college. - Some guy writes about Bayesian networks. Lo and behold, I remember doing it in college. - Someone floated the "20 most important equations" meme and I've seen them all at college or at work. I can't say much about each of them, but I definitely saw them and know roughly what they are about. - Coding. We did some of that in uni, though not in depth the way I do now. - Pretty much every economics topic you see in a newspaper. It wasn't that much of a waste of time. Kinda like a buffet where you try a few things so you know they exist, which perhaps is what college is supposed to be. Having to prep for exams killed the joy though.

waylandsmithers 9y ago

The mantra has always been "College isn't for everyone". I think some people have assumed this was pejorative and just directed at bad students or the poor, but there is much more to it. Maybe college isn't for you _right now_. Maybe you don't know what you want to study yet. Maybe you aren't yet mature enough to leave home. Or maybe money is a factor. But "Don't go to college" to me seems as naive as "Everbody should go to college."

dagw 9y ago
Maybe college isn't for you _right now_. I wish this would get more traction. The number of 17-18 year olds who know what they want to get out of college is probably tiny. Ideally going to college straight after high school should really be the exception rather then the rule.

elitro 9y ago

This topic tends to show up every now and then here in HN. If we ignore all the obvious benefits (learn the trade, self-discipline, etc...) that you may or may not obtain from your studies, one of the most relevant arguments i've seen discussed in here is the connections and friendships. College is a great place to make critical connections that can get you into nice jobs or lifelong friendships that will last as long as you foster them. Sure, working a job can also open those doors of oportunity, but if you are working as a waitress like the author suggested, i just can't see how that can help you direct your career or give you meaningful CV experience. I have been very fortunate for having parents which pushed me into college and ensured i finished it (i didn't make it easy, sadly ) but the payout has been worth it. It also deppends on your country (some value the diploma more than others, mine does) but at least it should help you get an interview, which is good enough. Ultimately, i believe the person should make the choice. And he, as the father, should explain both courses of action to his daughter, instead of pushing her into one direction just because going to college didn't work out for him as great as he wanted to.

skywhopper 9y ago

tl;dr: The author didn't enjoy his college experience, so he believes no one else will or can or should even try. For me, college was an important stepping stone to personal responsibility and a real career. The cliched (if not actually all that typical) four-year away-from-home college degree can serve as a transitional period from complete dependence to independence. That's not how the political sphere talks about higher education, and the author denigrates that idea as "extended childhood", but I think it serves a valuable purpose for those lucky enough to experience it. Yes, it's outrageously expensive, yes student loans are a growing drag on the economy, and yes far too many people are excluded, and yes it's not for everyone. But it's a core part of our society, and it can't just be dismissed as unimportant because you had a bad personal experience.

RationPhantoms 9y ago
I definitely agree that college can be a boon for young-adult social development but I think that should be where the focus is and not the pseudo-benefits of an over-valued degree.

gus_massa 9y ago

I couldn't find which degree she wants. For some areas a degree is essential. In other areas is a waste of time an money.

5trokerac3 9y ago

I have no doubt that college can be a great learning experience, but is it really worth the cost to the average person? Is getting into debt that most likely won't be payed off until their mid-thirties worth what they're getting in return? Like any investment, you have to see a return that justifies the cost, and I don't think the higher education system in the US is providing that right now for most career paths.

RationPhantoms 9y ago
I think a hybrid environment of the frugalness of community college coupled with an apprenticeship is the way to fix this. I agree with you that it's more of a social stigma that you didn't go to college nowadays. And I also do not believe in 80% of cases that the success of a bachelor's degree justifies the cost.

vidanay 9y ago

Very interesting. I don't have a college degree, but I do have a well established and successful career as a senior software developer. And yet, literally this week I am submitting applications to multiple universities in order to complete my CS degree (I have about a years worth of credit). I am doing this on the recommendation of my management as well as the encouragement of my wife. Is it going to be easy? Nope. Is it going to be worth it? I sure hope so.

lookACamel 9y ago

College/uni provides a special type of social environment that you can't get anywhere else. Just stating a fact. Whether that fact is important is up to the individual.

aryamaan 9y ago

I know the author is taking in the context of US colleges and I am from India but I do want to put the effect of the college in my life. In my entire childhood, we have been very poor financially but my brother and I managed to get good grades throughout our school. That allowed us to study in reputed colleges in the country and therefore, enabled us to get high paying jobs. Just because of this advantage, I will always be grateful to colleges and education, in general. And not to forget the indirect benefits like life long friendships, a good professional network among others.

Mz 9y ago

If I was his kid, I wouldn't listen to him either. His kid no doubt knows what a blowhard he is. I dropped out of college at age twenty. I went back later. Neither of my sons felt compelled to go. It is fine to argue against the idea that young people should feel compelled to go to college and to catalog the fact that people have a lot of erroneous ideas about college. It is not so cool to try to actively campaign against college as an option.