5 ms·

Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there. You literally cannot do business there without paying bribes. Nobody had to tell an

Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there. You literally cannot do business there without paying bribes. Nobody had to tell anyone to pay the bribe; if they're anything like every other company I've worked with over there, they have an official slush fund for this stuff. You just do it. Now, it's pretty abhorrent that they doxed a rape victim; and that behavior is reason enough to investigate IMO. But the bribery part? Literally everyone does it because you have to if you want anything to get done there as a foreigner / foreign company.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
That's correct - and it definitely affects the math involved. It would be way more expensive in many ways to be involved in bribery in a larger country like Canada, to the point that the illegal activity likely wouldn't be worth the potential cost. But in India, the cost of such illegal activity is very different, thus is more likely to be worth it.
ajdlinux 9y ago
I don't know about the US, but in Australia, our foreign bribery laws explicitly exempt "facilitation payments", i.e. bribes that are customarily paid to grease the wheels of bureaucracy and get routine government actions done. However, that certainly wouldn't cover anything like this alleged rape doxxing, and it also wouldn't cover bribes intended to secure new business, which are presumably extremely common in countries like India.
- dbuxton 9y ago
  The FCPA similarly differentiates. However the practical problem is that running a defense based on whether a certain activity was a facilitation payment (to secure the performance of a "routine government action") means you essentially have to admit that the potentially unlawful activity actually took place, and you move onto generally very treacherous ground. For that reason most companies don't go that route. In any case as others have noted it's not relevant here because getting someone's medical records isn't a service that you're entitled to.
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  However, that certainly wouldn't cover anything like this alleged rape doxxing The article didn't say anything about the rape case. Getting her info could have cost less than $100, but staying in business in certain countries could run in tens of millions.
  - saghm 9y ago
    > The article didn't say anything about the rape case. From TFA: "Reuters in June reported that Uber had hired a law firm to investigate how it obtained the medical records of an Indian woman who was raped by an Uber driver in 2014." > Getting her info could have cost less than $100, but staying in business in certain countries could run in tens of millions. I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make here. Regardless of the calculus, it was morally bankrupt and probably illegal.
    - tryingagainbro 9y ago
      I believe the link changed, it was a WSJ article first with no mention of the rape case. I doubted that they'd be investigated for small sums of payments.
      - saghm 9y ago
        Fair enough. Now that I reread the whole article, the mentioning of the incident does actually seem a bit out of place in this as well; it doesn't explicitly connect it to the preceding paragraph or the rest of the paragraph.
mehwoot 9y ago
Except in this case (if this is what happened??) they're paying a bribe to do something you shouldn't be able to do anyway. This isn't paying a bribe to conduct standard business, they're paying a bribe to access someone's medical records. I don't see how that is anymore acceptable if you're doing it in India than in any Western country.
- exelius 9y ago
  It is more culturally complex than that. It's easy for us to look at it and moralize with western eyes, but bribery is simply part of the system in some places. People feed their families with bribes. Getting rid of the status quo won't happen overnight, and in the meantime companies have business to do. Being shitty is still being shitty though; and doxing rape victims is pretty shitty.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    > It's easy for us to look at it and moralize with western eyes, but bribery is simply part of the system in some places. Seeing as how it's illegal in India, it's accurate to say that lots of Indians think it is immoral too! My dad left Bangladesh in part because a phone company tech wanted him to pay a bribe to get a second line installed and he didn't want to raise kids in a country like that.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > bribery is simply part of the system in some places Part Indian here. You can definitely lead an ethical life in India. It's harder. But not impossible. Characterising every Indian as corrupt by nature because it's their "way of life" is a cop out.
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      Full Indian here. You're right, but it is exponentially harder to do that and conduct a successful business. Businesses have to pay bribes at literally every step otherwise they simply won't be able to function.
ImSkeptical 9y ago
I don't see why this is a good argument. If you can't do business without breaking the law, don't do business. Participating in bribery because everyone else does it is immoral, perpetuates bad behavior, and risks infecting your company with people who act illegally.
- adventured 9y ago
  The argument you're leveling is equivalent to: never start a business in any country and never do business in any country. It requires a perfect bureaucracy in terms of government and requires perfect knowledge by all participants and at all times (ie it will never exist). Even well run nations generally have very large numbers of regulations on the books, frequently outdated or poorly thought-through, requiring you to regularly break the law just to function on a day to day basis typically without knowing that you're doing so. You might as well argue we should just all commit suicide by starvation or general mass economic deprivation. That's the only thing pursuing your premise to its logical conclusion could lead to. Alternatively, figure out a perfect system of government that never has flaws or malevolent actors and figure out how to get people to behave as strictly programmed robots.
  - ImSkeptical 9y ago
    You're right that there are more laws than any one person knows. There are also complex interactions between laws and interpretations of laws such that even diligent legal scholars acting in good faith would struggle to do complex actions without arguably violating some law. I definitely believe the law should be simplified and clarified to improve comprehension. However, there is a world of difference between unwittingly violating subsection III A.15 of some act you've never heard of, and intentionally bribing a government official. In the latter case you are intentionally suborning the function of government for your own benefit, and corrupting the whole system thereby. Bribery is inefficient. Systems that operate according to law are safer, cleaner, and more productive. The only argument in favor of bribery is that in the short term, the specific criminals involved, get what they want. That's not a great argument when compared to the harmony and productivity of a society. Bribery is illegal for a reason. If you can't do business without committing a crime, then you shouldn't do business. If India's culture has rampant bribery, then firms from less bribery-inclined areas should not do business there. Either other countries will come around to India's policy of bribing people, or India, desirous of commerce with the outside world, will come around to the "Bribery is bad" school of thought. In either case, whole societies will be enriched and improved.
rayiner 9y ago
> Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there Regardless, it's illegal for U.S. (and U.K.) companies to pay bribes to officials in India: http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/5-tips-for-companies-on-navigating-facilitation-payments-in-india http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/5-tips-for-compan....
- exelius 9y ago
  While you are technically correct, I've had to personally pay bribes to get a laptop with a bunch of sensitive data thru customs. Importing electronics into India without the right paperwork is illegal, but only the manufacturer can apply for the paperwork. The particular model of laptop was never sold in India (it was some cheap Dell thing - the data was the reason I shipped it). So I paid a nice $50 bribe to the customs official and got the laptop back no problem. Was what I did technically illegal? Sure. But the bribe was the best outcome for everyone involved.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    A culture of bribery undermines a society. It's the kind of moral decay that plays a huge part in holding back developing countries: http://www.thedailystar.net/op-ed/cost-corruption-111523 http://www.thedailystar.net/op-ed/cost-corruption-111523.
    - exelius 9y ago
      I don't disagree; but try doing business there without paying bribes.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  And it's probably double-illegal to pay bribes to officials to get them to do illegal things. It's not like one of their drivers was facing a long wait at the DMV and...encouraged...a bureaucrat to care about their job for a few minutes.
  - 9y ago
Waterluvian 9y ago
Is the bribery allegation possibly just a vector of attack to deal with the more wrong thing(s) done? Ie. doxing a rape victim.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
matt4077 9y ago
You can't really use the but-everyone-does-it defence when it's a case that in no way could be considered a business requirement. Maybe there actually are conscientious business leaders that hate being forced into corruption by some countries' customs–personally, that sounds just a bit too convenient at times, and I've some actually moral business leaders go through all sorts of trouble to avoid being compromised. One story I remember was the 70 years+ founder of a company, with personal wealth in the 9 digits, refusing to pay some government goon at an airport in west Africa. He spent a day and a half in this guy's office, in 100degF+ heat, without ever being tempted to take the easy way.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

That's correct - and it definitely affects the math involved. It would be way more expensive in many ways to be involved in bribery in a larger country like Canada, to the point that the illegal activity likely wouldn't be worth the potential cost. But in India, the cost of such illegal activity is very different, thus is more likely to be worth it.

ajdlinux 9y ago

I don't know about the US, but in Australia, our foreign bribery laws explicitly exempt "facilitation payments", i.e. bribes that are customarily paid to grease the wheels of bureaucracy and get routine government actions done. However, that certainly wouldn't cover anything like this alleged rape doxxing, and it also wouldn't cover bribes intended to secure new business, which are presumably extremely common in countries like India.

dbuxton 9y ago
The FCPA similarly differentiates. However the practical problem is that running a defense based on whether a certain activity was a facilitation payment (to secure the performance of a "routine government action") means you essentially have to admit that the potentially unlawful activity actually took place, and you move onto generally very treacherous ground. For that reason most companies don't go that route. In any case as others have noted it's not relevant here because getting someone's medical records isn't a service that you're entitled to.
tryingagainbro 9y ago
However, that certainly wouldn't cover anything like this alleged rape doxxing The article didn't say anything about the rape case. Getting her info could have cost less than $100, but staying in business in certain countries could run in tens of millions.
- saghm 9y ago
  > The article didn't say anything about the rape case. From TFA: "Reuters in June reported that Uber had hired a law firm to investigate how it obtained the medical records of an Indian woman who was raped by an Uber driver in 2014." > Getting her info could have cost less than $100, but staying in business in certain countries could run in tens of millions. I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make here. Regardless of the calculus, it was morally bankrupt and probably illegal.
  - tryingagainbro 9y ago
    I believe the link changed, it was a WSJ article first with no mention of the rape case. I doubted that they'd be investigated for small sums of payments.
    - saghm 9y ago
      Fair enough. Now that I reread the whole article, the mentioning of the incident does actually seem a bit out of place in this as well; it doesn't explicitly connect it to the preceding paragraph or the rest of the paragraph.

mehwoot 9y ago

Except in this case (if this is what happened??) they're paying a bribe to do something you shouldn't be able to do anyway. This isn't paying a bribe to conduct standard business, they're paying a bribe to access someone's medical records. I don't see how that is anymore acceptable if you're doing it in India than in any Western country.

exelius 9y ago
It is more culturally complex than that. It's easy for us to look at it and moralize with western eyes, but bribery is simply part of the system in some places. People feed their families with bribes. Getting rid of the status quo won't happen overnight, and in the meantime companies have business to do. Being shitty is still being shitty though; and doxing rape victims is pretty shitty.
- rayiner 9y ago
  > It's easy for us to look at it and moralize with western eyes, but bribery is simply part of the system in some places. Seeing as how it's illegal in India, it's accurate to say that lots of Indians think it is immoral too! My dad left Bangladesh in part because a phone company tech wanted him to pay a bribe to get a second line installed and he didn't want to raise kids in a country like that.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > bribery is simply part of the system in some places Part Indian here. You can definitely lead an ethical life in India. It's harder. But not impossible. Characterising every Indian as corrupt by nature because it's their "way of life" is a cop out.
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    Full Indian here. You're right, but it is exponentially harder to do that and conduct a successful business. Businesses have to pay bribes at literally every step otherwise they simply won't be able to function.

ImSkeptical 9y ago

I don't see why this is a good argument. If you can't do business without breaking the law, don't do business. Participating in bribery because everyone else does it is immoral, perpetuates bad behavior, and risks infecting your company with people who act illegally.

adventured 9y ago
The argument you're leveling is equivalent to: never start a business in any country and never do business in any country. It requires a perfect bureaucracy in terms of government and requires perfect knowledge by all participants and at all times (ie it will never exist). Even well run nations generally have very large numbers of regulations on the books, frequently outdated or poorly thought-through, requiring you to regularly break the law just to function on a day to day basis typically without knowing that you're doing so. You might as well argue we should just all commit suicide by starvation or general mass economic deprivation. That's the only thing pursuing your premise to its logical conclusion could lead to. Alternatively, figure out a perfect system of government that never has flaws or malevolent actors and figure out how to get people to behave as strictly programmed robots.
- ImSkeptical 9y ago
  You're right that there are more laws than any one person knows. There are also complex interactions between laws and interpretations of laws such that even diligent legal scholars acting in good faith would struggle to do complex actions without arguably violating some law. I definitely believe the law should be simplified and clarified to improve comprehension. However, there is a world of difference between unwittingly violating subsection III A.15 of some act you've never heard of, and intentionally bribing a government official. In the latter case you are intentionally suborning the function of government for your own benefit, and corrupting the whole system thereby. Bribery is inefficient. Systems that operate according to law are safer, cleaner, and more productive. The only argument in favor of bribery is that in the short term, the specific criminals involved, get what they want. That's not a great argument when compared to the harmony and productivity of a society. Bribery is illegal for a reason. If you can't do business without committing a crime, then you shouldn't do business. If India's culture has rampant bribery, then firms from less bribery-inclined areas should not do business there. Either other countries will come around to India's policy of bribing people, or India, desirous of commerce with the outside world, will come around to the "Bribery is bad" school of thought. In either case, whole societies will be enriched and improved.

rayiner 9y ago

> Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there Regardless, it's illegal for U.S. (and U.K.) companies to pay bribes to officials in India: http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/5-tips-for-companies-on-navigating-facilitation-payments-in-india http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/5-tips-for-compan....

exelius 9y ago
While you are technically correct, I've had to personally pay bribes to get a laptop with a bunch of sensitive data thru customs. Importing electronics into India without the right paperwork is illegal, but only the manufacturer can apply for the paperwork. The particular model of laptop was never sold in India (it was some cheap Dell thing - the data was the reason I shipped it). So I paid a nice $50 bribe to the customs official and got the laptop back no problem. Was what I did technically illegal? Sure. But the bribe was the best outcome for everyone involved.
- rayiner 9y ago
  A culture of bribery undermines a society. It's the kind of moral decay that plays a huge part in holding back developing countries: http://www.thedailystar.net/op-ed/cost-corruption-111523 http://www.thedailystar.net/op-ed/cost-corruption-111523.
  - exelius 9y ago
    I don't disagree; but try doing business there without paying bribes.
leggomylibro 9y ago
And it's probably double-illegal to pay bribes to officials to get them to do illegal things. It's not like one of their drivers was facing a long wait at the DMV and...encouraged...a bureaucrat to care about their job for a few minutes.
- 9y ago

Waterluvian 9y ago

Is the bribery allegation possibly just a vector of attack to deal with the more wrong thing(s) done? Ie. doxing a rape victim.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

matt4077 9y ago

You can't really use the but-everyone-does-it defence when it's a case that in no way could be considered a business requirement. Maybe there actually are conscientious business leaders that hate being forced into corruption by some countries' customs–personally, that sounds just a bit too convenient at times, and I've some actually moral business leaders go through all sorts of trouble to avoid being compromised. One story I remember was the 70 years+ founder of a company, with personal wealth in the 9 digits, refusing to pay some government goon at an airport in west Africa. He spent a day and a half in this guy's office, in 100degF+ heat, without ever being tempted to take the easy way.