8 ms·

Increased acidity found in schizophrenia and bipolar patients’ brains

130 points by kurtisdipo 9y ago

amelius 9y ago
So after decades of research, and thousands of different markers they could have looked at, they found that pH is a significant marker?
- jack9 9y ago
  Hard to analyze lots of brains of dead schizoids until we had a methodology to diagnose, permission to analyze them, and then looked closely enough. http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v9/n7/full/4001511a.html?foxtrotcallback=true http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v9/n7/full/4001511a.html?fo... Sometimes lots of theories come out of a minute variation correlation and sometimes it's just a sampling coincidence (like it's just how schizoid brains break down). I'm VERY sure, someone has altered a schizoid's diet to a more or less acidic diet before. I will bet that pH therapy won't be very effective, but it might lead to some other discovery.
  - trhway 9y ago
    >I will bet that pH therapy won't be very effective, but it might lead to some other discovery. just a note on what therapeutic impact pH therapy have in other situation - mice study on pH therapy (baking soda added to drinking water) for cancer shows at least 2 things - neutralizing tumor pH improves response to other therapies and when alone the pH therapy reduces and slows down metastases formation (at the level of chemotherapy drugs - check out the 2 times difference in survival at the end of 4 month experiment https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834485/figure/F1/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834485/figure/... ).
  - shaggerty 9y ago
    I've never heard someone refer to a schizophrenic as "a schizoid". Schizophrenia and schizoid personality disorder are distinct disorders with different symptoms.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - cat199 9y ago
      not in the field, but I think it's both somewhat slang for schizophrenia (see also woody allen movies), also somewhat antiquated or at least highly specific term from (iirc freudian) psychopathology
- SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
  That the pH is lower has apparently been known for a while. What's not been clear is the cause of the lower pH and whether the low pH is causing the disorders or if it's just a side effect of an underlying cause or of the medications. This still isn't clear. It could even be a combination of factors, with low pH caused by lactate production stimulating the disorder which increases lactate production... etc.
  - Danihan 9y ago
    IMO one aspect that isn't well understood enough, and not given enough emphasis in research, are the "cleaning" cycles of the brain. In particular, neuronal autophagy, but also cleaning cycles during sleep. If the overall PH is off, something isn't being cleaned correctly. A byproduct isn't being removed. I'd love to know how a ten day water fast affects the mental processing and bio-markers of a group of schizophrenia patients. I'd also love to compare their brain activity in a sleep study to that of a control group. Parallel issues here as with most dementias. Plaques seem to form in all brains, but for most people there are cleaning cycles that break them apart and remove them. With Alzheimer's disease this stops happening. Why? Another intriguing question for schizophrenia -- eating foods rich in glutamate, for instance rich cheeses, is a negative trigger for many people with schizophrenia. Why? Well, glutamate is metabolized in the brain and it's used as a neurotransmitter. Obviously there is some sort of chemical processing issue in some patients. Figure out what exactly what the issue is and I'd bet you'll know much more about the root cause of Schizophrenia, and potentially several other major mental disorders. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25236722 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25236722 "Glutamate plays key roles linking carbohydrate and amino acid metabolism via the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle, as well as in nitrogen trafficking and ammonia homeostasis in brain." "Ammonia homeostasis," sounds like something that might affect PH, right?
    - JamesBarney 9y ago
      Weird thing with glutamate though, is that schizphrenics show lowered activation of glutamate which is supposed to be responsible for the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. Things that increase glutamatergic activity(like cycline) help this.
- mirekrusin 9y ago
  Not sure what's new 5 years after https://now.uiowa.edu/2012/05/acid-brain https://now.uiowa.edu/2012/05/acid-brain (same researcher, pretty much the same conclusions). Isn't increasing carbon dioxide in the air a standard stress invoking procedure in lab tests on rodents etc?
deadmik3 9y ago
all this time we thought acid would make you crazy
pdog 9y ago
More evidence for the health benefits of an alkaline diet.
- trendia 9y ago
  Maybe, if the alkaline diet reduces acidity of the brain. However, if the acidity is the result of increased energy production or a failure of the cleaning mechanisms of the brain (as one of the study authors suggests), then the alkaline diet might not be sufficient to reduce brain acidity. Further, we don't know whether acidity is the cause or the result of the disease. If it is a result of the disease, then reducing acidity may not affect symptoms of schizophrenia, much as eliminating beta amyloid does not guarantee a reduction in symptoms of Alzheimer's
- scythe 9y ago
  The benefits people colloquially explain as due to an "alkaline" diet are mostly related to consumption of potassium. The thing is that "alkaline" does not accurately describe what is going on with these diets, because eating food is not at all like mixing chemicals in a jar. Furthermore, as any chemist knows, the K+ ion is actually an acid, but because it acts as a counterion for stronger bases, higher potassium leads to higher blood pH. The idea is basically folk wisdom which is transmitting the findings of studies like this one: https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/87/5/2008/2846608 https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/87/5/2008/2846608 Because consumption of K+, Mg2+, and Ca2+ decreases calcium excretion, whereas consumption of Na+ and sulfur increases it, and because calcium is more soluble in acidic solutions and less soluble in alkaline solutions, there was a tendency to refer to the former as "alkaline" and the latter as "acidic". This is infuriating to people who know enough chemistry to know that Mg2+ is in fact much more acidic than Na+. I am an amateur, but I've put a decent amount of time towards making sense of this, and it appears to me that it's mostly potassium, and to a lesser extent calcium and magnesium, that explains what is really going on here.
- travmatt 9y ago
  Isn't the body very good at maintaining homeostasis? Meaning you could eat an alkaline diet, but if your body composition is such that you have such a given acidic composition then your body has processes to maintain whatever it's 'normal' is.
withoutclass 9y ago
Wim Hof Method, baby.
- reviewmon 9y ago
  You can easily see ph levels go up to 7.5+ after each breathering session.
- lemonberry 9y ago
  I was going to say the same thing. I don't know the veracity of the claims regarding ph levels but it's the one tool in my toolkit that consistently gives me an immediate positive return in my mental health. It'd be great if this is something that has far reaching clinical effects.
- jkaunisv1 9y ago
  I'm not interested in paying for the online video course - does this article http://highexistence.com/the-wim-hof-method-revealed-how-to-consciously-control-your-immune-system/ http://highexistence.com/the-wim-hof-method-revealed-how-to-... capture the gist of it? Does the book include anything else that's significant?
- DenisM 9y ago
  For reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof
rrggrr 9y ago
We know recurrent episodes of apnea, over months and years, may cause an increase in carbon dioxide levels that can change the pH of the blood enough to cause a respiratory acidosis. We also know sleep apnea may be prevalent in patients with bipolar I disorder. It would be great to see a comparison study of patients with OSA versus CSA (specifically REM-related sleep apnea) examining acidosis, mood disorder prevelence, and outcomes in treated versus untreated populations.
- sradu 9y ago
  Can you share any studies around this? Especially about sleep apnea and bipolar 1.
tcj_phx 9y ago
> Other research has revealed that the brains of people with panic disorders produce elevated levels of lactate—an acidic source of fuel that is constantly produced and consumed in the energy-hungry brain. For me, this further confirms that metabolic problems are causally-associated with 'mental disorders'. Lactic acidosis is a medical condition characterized by the buildup of lactate (especially L-lactate) in the body, which results in an excessively low pH. It is a subtype of metabolic acidosis, where excessive acid is due to a problem with the body's metabolism. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acidosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acidosis I used the courts to get the mental health system to reduce the harm they were perpetrating upon my friend, who they thought had a 'persistent mental disorder'. Really she was just self-medicating depression with the street pharmacy. (Cocaine and the amphetamines are not very good for people's mitochondria/metabolism, which is why they're illegal.) In response to my bullying, the treatment provider did a genetic test, and decided that she needed Folate (Vitamin B-9), as she can't convert folic acid like most people. She's doing much better on the reduced dosages of tranquilizers ('anti-psychotics')/etc.
- Madmallard 9y ago
  What's the test?
  - tcj_phx 9y ago
    This page has a write up about folate & mental health: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-integrationist/201409/genetic-mutation-can-affect-mental-physical-health https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-integrationist/2014...
tim333 9y ago
This reminds me of research from a while back suggesting schizophrenia was related to an ancient retrovirus that entered our DNA millions of years ago and occasionally causes problems (Discover mag, "The Insanity Virus," June 2010). Reseach is ongoing: (http://discovermagazine.com/2015/sept/6-insanity-virus http://discovermagazine.com/2015/sept/6-insanity-virus). From the 2010 story: > Sixty million years ago, a lemurlike animal—an early ancestor of humans and monkeys—contracted an infection. It may not have made the lemur ill, but the retrovirus spread into the animal’s testes (or perhaps its ovaries), and once there, it struck the jackpot: It slipped inside one of the rare germ line cells that produce sperm and eggs. When the lemur reproduced, that retrovirus rode into the next generation aboard the lucky sperm and then moved on from generation to generation, nestled in the DNA. “It’s a rare, random event,” says Robert Belshaw, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Oxford in England. “Over the last 100 million years, there have been only maybe 50 times when a retrovirus has gotten into our genome and proliferated.” >...Perron in 2008, found HERV-W in the blood of 49 percent of people with schizophrenia, compared with just 4 percent of healthy people.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  > It may not have made the lemur ill I've often wondered how many viruses we contract that don't present any obvious symptoms. How would we know to look for them? Does anyone know if this idea has been looked in to?
  - DamnInteresting 9y ago
    Two I am aware of that kinda fit this category are Toxoplasma gondii[1] (not technically a virus) and Adenovirus serotype 36[2]. The former has been associated with a wide array of behavioral changes, the latter is associated with obesity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii#Immune_response_and_behaviour_alterations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii#Immune_respo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenovirus_serotype_36#Role_in_obesity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenovirus_serotype_36#Role_in...
    - 9y ago
Ovah 9y ago
Contrary to what the article states, elevated levels of lactic acid per say do not cause acidification. In fact, the increase in lactic acid correlates to but is not the causation of acidosis. According to Robergs (2004) [1], it is the hydrolysis of ATP outside of the mitochondria (ATP produced in glycolysis) that increases the concentration of H+ and lowers pH. Yet, still, if the concentration of lactate increases it's a good indicator of acidosis from oxygen deficiency. [1] Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15308499 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15308499 Note: During low oxygen levels in tissue, metabolism becomes anaerobic -> lactic acid is produced. Lactic acid <-> lactate + H+.
wu-ikkyu 9y ago
>researchers continued to puzzle over if the increased acidity seen in schizophrenia and bipolar patients was truly disorder-related—or the result of other factors, such as a person’s history of antipsychotic drug use Excuse my ignorance, but I don't see how they ruled out the possible link between antipsychotic drug use and increased acidity? I'm also puzzled by how they can confidently diagnose rodents with human social disorders based solely on "genetic indicators" when the links between genetics and disorders like schizophrenia are still far from understood.
Mz 9y ago
My medical condition makes the body too acidic. This is a well known thing. Doctors know it. Patients know it. Yet, it is not treated as a primary issue. It only gets treated secondarily to help control specific developments, like acid reflux. I have known a number of bipolar people and I tend to easily click with them. I don't think I am actually bipolar, but I do suspect my medical condition sometimes impacts my brain functioning in a similar manner. Without bothering to get into lengthy anecdata I think a) acidosis likely is a root cause of mental health problems but b) solving it isn't as simple or straight forward as just controlling the acidity. If your body functions different from the norm such that the result is high acidity, there will be a lot of other knock off effects. So, it is a little like saying "Deserts are deserts because they lack water. So let's just add water." Well, no, they typically lack water because they are in the rain shadow of a mountain range. Importing water doesn't fix that. Importing it consistently, for many years may allow you to mitigate many of the effects, but you will have to keep working at it. You will not find that climate in the area "normalizes" just because you imported water and grew plants. You will still be in the rain shadow of a mountain and if you stop importing water and stop lovingly tending to human planted flora, it will eventually revert back to desert.
- gameshot911 9y ago
  Great analogy.
- tominous 9y ago
  Interesting analogy but it doesn't always hold. Take the greening of Ascension Island [1] where planting trees created a virtuous cycle: the trees trapped more moisture which promoted the growth of more trees. In biology there are many complicated feedback loops and in some cases a parameter seems to get stuck outside of the normal range. In those cases, bringing the parameter back into the normal range can be enough to allow the normal feedback mechanisms to work properly again. Some examples: * Eczema: There can be a loop between irritation, inflammation, damage to the skin, more irritation. Treat the skin with steroids to both improve symptoms and disrupt the loop. * Myopia: Studies have shown that undercorrecting for near-sightedness actually makes it worse [2]. Bringing it back into the normal range doesn't just help the symptoms, it also makes it progress slower. * Depression: Maybe operating at a higher level, but there's a clear loop between changed behaviour and improved motivation. Even something like acidity could be like this. You could speculate a link between gut bacteria and acidity, whereby changing the acidity directly could alter the balance of bacteria which locks in the change in acidity. [1] http://faculty.washington.edu/dcatling/Catling2012_GreenMountainSubmitted.pdf http://faculty.washington.edu/dcatling/Catling2012_GreenMoun... [2] http://www.journalofoptometry.org/en/under-correction-human-myopia-is/articulo/S1888429613000885/ http://www.journalofoptometry.org/en/under-correction-human-...
lostInTheWoods3 9y ago
Yet another reason to stop drinking Soda, one of the most acidic things that can be in a person's diet.
- all_blue_chucks 9y ago
  People don't usually inject it inside the blood/brain barrier...
pella 9y ago
> "A main source of these temporary surges is the carbon dioxide that is constantly released as the brain breaks > down sugar to generate energy, which subsequently turns into acid." The "Ketosis" / "Ketogenic diets" are helping in this case? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet
- DiabloD3 9y ago
  Go look up Dr Dom D'agostino's work on using "medical keto" (as in, 4:1 ratio (in grams) of fat to carbs+protein, while keeping carbs at below 30g and enough protein to maintain muscle) to control epilepsy in drug resistant patients. That kind of answers your question, but not directly.
Madmallard 9y ago
Increasingly acidic diets and micronutrient malnutrition Bacteriocidal antibiotics which enduce mitochondrial dysfunction Chronic sleep deprivation and stress People with problematic genetics having children when 200 years ago it wouldn't have been possible Lots of things that contribute to the increase in the incidence of various mental illnesses Solutions are not easy at all either. If you ever see a diagram of what we know about metabolism it's ludicrous.
pdq 9y ago
Could this explain why Lithium is sometimes an effective treatment?
marcsquared 9y ago
Two words: Buteyko method See e.g. http://www.normalbreathing.com http://www.normalbreathing.com CNS/Diseases of the Brain Are Caused by Low Brain O2/CO2 Levels http://www.normalbreathing.com/diseases-Brain.php http://www.normalbreathing.com/diseases-Brain.php Sedatives | CO2: Natural Sedative and Tranquilizer http://www.normalbreathing.com/CO2-stabilizer.php http://www.normalbreathing.com/CO2-stabilizer.php After 15 years of panic attacks, anxiety, migraines, hay fever... if finally found the solution: learn to breathe correctly again. The best and cheapest thing I've ever learned for my health! This is just one site, but there are many more on the web. Not affiliated to a single one of them, but hopefully I can share the joy of a panic attack free live with at least one other person. :)
- whiteandnerdy 9y ago
  I'm pleased that the technique worked for you and don't want to denigrate your experience, but looking around it seems that there's very little evidence to support the Buteyko technique, and a fair few red flags: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/buteyko-breathing-technique-nothing-to-hyperventilate-about/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/buteyko-breathing-technique... If it works for you it works for you, but I'd caution readers to be skeptical when trying it out.
  - marcsquared 9y ago
    Thank you for your respectful reply. I agree that everyone should be skeptical and look for evidence. For me personally it has been a godsend, that's what I can state. I also know about 5 other people who have applied this knowledge and all had noticeable improvements in various areas. Experience may vary of course. Bodies are also different. You can go the Buteyko way, Chi-Gung, Yoga, Wim Hoff method etc etc. whatever works if you need it. Generally I do however think that breathing is way, way underappreciated as a cause for various diseases. I've seen 5 medical specialists who overlooked my breathing _patterns_. I've been hooked up to heart monitoring devices, gave plenty of blood to examine and all that jazz. The solution was literally right under my nose. In the end it was a $5 USD discounted book about Buteyko's research that made all the difference. Breathe through your nose, your mouth is for eating and talking. That will already help many people. :)
kenneth_reitz 9y ago
I'm bipolar!

130 points by kurtisdipo 9y ago

So after decades of research, and thousands of different markers they could have looked at, they found that pH is a significant marker?

jack9 9y ago
Hard to analyze lots of brains of dead schizoids until we had a methodology to diagnose, permission to analyze them, and then looked closely enough. http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v9/n7/full/4001511a.html?foxtrotcallback=true http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v9/n7/full/4001511a.html?fo... Sometimes lots of theories come out of a minute variation correlation and sometimes it's just a sampling coincidence (like it's just how schizoid brains break down). I'm VERY sure, someone has altered a schizoid's diet to a more or less acidic diet before. I will bet that pH therapy won't be very effective, but it might lead to some other discovery.
- trhway 9y ago
  >I will bet that pH therapy won't be very effective, but it might lead to some other discovery. just a note on what therapeutic impact pH therapy have in other situation - mice study on pH therapy (baking soda added to drinking water) for cancer shows at least 2 things - neutralizing tumor pH improves response to other therapies and when alone the pH therapy reduces and slows down metastases formation (at the level of chemotherapy drugs - check out the 2 times difference in survival at the end of 4 month experiment https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834485/figure/F1/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834485/figure/... ).
- shaggerty 9y ago
  I've never heard someone refer to a schizophrenic as "a schizoid". Schizophrenia and schizoid personality disorder are distinct disorders with different symptoms.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - cat199 9y ago
    not in the field, but I think it's both somewhat slang for schizophrenia (see also woody allen movies), also somewhat antiquated or at least highly specific term from (iirc freudian) psychopathology
SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
That the pH is lower has apparently been known for a while. What's not been clear is the cause of the lower pH and whether the low pH is causing the disorders or if it's just a side effect of an underlying cause or of the medications. This still isn't clear. It could even be a combination of factors, with low pH caused by lactate production stimulating the disorder which increases lactate production... etc.
- Danihan 9y ago
  IMO one aspect that isn't well understood enough, and not given enough emphasis in research, are the "cleaning" cycles of the brain. In particular, neuronal autophagy, but also cleaning cycles during sleep. If the overall PH is off, something isn't being cleaned correctly. A byproduct isn't being removed. I'd love to know how a ten day water fast affects the mental processing and bio-markers of a group of schizophrenia patients. I'd also love to compare their brain activity in a sleep study to that of a control group. Parallel issues here as with most dementias. Plaques seem to form in all brains, but for most people there are cleaning cycles that break them apart and remove them. With Alzheimer's disease this stops happening. Why? Another intriguing question for schizophrenia -- eating foods rich in glutamate, for instance rich cheeses, is a negative trigger for many people with schizophrenia. Why? Well, glutamate is metabolized in the brain and it's used as a neurotransmitter. Obviously there is some sort of chemical processing issue in some patients. Figure out what exactly what the issue is and I'd bet you'll know much more about the root cause of Schizophrenia, and potentially several other major mental disorders. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25236722 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25236722 "Glutamate plays key roles linking carbohydrate and amino acid metabolism via the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle, as well as in nitrogen trafficking and ammonia homeostasis in brain." "Ammonia homeostasis," sounds like something that might affect PH, right?
  - JamesBarney 9y ago
    Weird thing with glutamate though, is that schizphrenics show lowered activation of glutamate which is supposed to be responsible for the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. Things that increase glutamatergic activity(like cycline) help this.
mirekrusin 9y ago
Not sure what's new 5 years after https://now.uiowa.edu/2012/05/acid-brain https://now.uiowa.edu/2012/05/acid-brain (same researcher, pretty much the same conclusions). Isn't increasing carbon dioxide in the air a standard stress invoking procedure in lab tests on rodents etc?

deadmik3 9y ago

all this time we thought acid would make you crazy

pdog 9y ago

More evidence for the health benefits of an alkaline diet.

trendia 9y ago
Maybe, if the alkaline diet reduces acidity of the brain. However, if the acidity is the result of increased energy production or a failure of the cleaning mechanisms of the brain (as one of the study authors suggests), then the alkaline diet might not be sufficient to reduce brain acidity. Further, we don't know whether acidity is the cause or the result of the disease. If it is a result of the disease, then reducing acidity may not affect symptoms of schizophrenia, much as eliminating beta amyloid does not guarantee a reduction in symptoms of Alzheimer's
scythe 9y ago
The benefits people colloquially explain as due to an "alkaline" diet are mostly related to consumption of potassium. The thing is that "alkaline" does not accurately describe what is going on with these diets, because eating food is not at all like mixing chemicals in a jar. Furthermore, as any chemist knows, the K+ ion is actually an acid, but because it acts as a counterion for stronger bases, higher potassium leads to higher blood pH. The idea is basically folk wisdom which is transmitting the findings of studies like this one: https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/87/5/2008/2846608 https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/87/5/2008/2846608 Because consumption of K+, Mg2+, and Ca2+ decreases calcium excretion, whereas consumption of Na+ and sulfur increases it, and because calcium is more soluble in acidic solutions and less soluble in alkaline solutions, there was a tendency to refer to the former as "alkaline" and the latter as "acidic". This is infuriating to people who know enough chemistry to know that Mg2+ is in fact much more acidic than Na+. I am an amateur, but I've put a decent amount of time towards making sense of this, and it appears to me that it's mostly potassium, and to a lesser extent calcium and magnesium, that explains what is really going on here.
travmatt 9y ago
Isn't the body very good at maintaining homeostasis? Meaning you could eat an alkaline diet, but if your body composition is such that you have such a given acidic composition then your body has processes to maintain whatever it's 'normal' is.

withoutclass 9y ago

Wim Hof Method, baby.

reviewmon 9y ago
You can easily see ph levels go up to 7.5+ after each breathering session.
lemonberry 9y ago
I was going to say the same thing. I don't know the veracity of the claims regarding ph levels but it's the one tool in my toolkit that consistently gives me an immediate positive return in my mental health. It'd be great if this is something that has far reaching clinical effects.
jkaunisv1 9y ago
I'm not interested in paying for the online video course - does this article http://highexistence.com/the-wim-hof-method-revealed-how-to-consciously-control-your-immune-system/ http://highexistence.com/the-wim-hof-method-revealed-how-to-... capture the gist of it? Does the book include anything else that's significant?
DenisM 9y ago
For reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof

rrggrr 9y ago

We know recurrent episodes of apnea, over months and years, may cause an increase in carbon dioxide levels that can change the pH of the blood enough to cause a respiratory acidosis. We also know sleep apnea may be prevalent in patients with bipolar I disorder. It would be great to see a comparison study of patients with OSA versus CSA (specifically REM-related sleep apnea) examining acidosis, mood disorder prevelence, and outcomes in treated versus untreated populations.

sradu 9y ago
Can you share any studies around this? Especially about sleep apnea and bipolar 1.

tcj_phx 9y ago

> Other research has revealed that the brains of people with panic disorders produce elevated levels of lactate—an acidic source of fuel that is constantly produced and consumed in the energy-hungry brain. For me, this further confirms that metabolic problems are causally-associated with 'mental disorders'. Lactic acidosis is a medical condition characterized by the buildup of lactate (especially L-lactate) in the body, which results in an excessively low pH. It is a subtype of metabolic acidosis, where excessive acid is due to a problem with the body's metabolism. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acidosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acidosis I used the courts to get the mental health system to reduce the harm they were perpetrating upon my friend, who they thought had a 'persistent mental disorder'. Really she was just self-medicating depression with the street pharmacy. (Cocaine and the amphetamines are not very good for people's mitochondria/metabolism, which is why they're illegal.) In response to my bullying, the treatment provider did a genetic test, and decided that she needed Folate (Vitamin B-9), as she can't convert folic acid like most people. She's doing much better on the reduced dosages of tranquilizers ('anti-psychotics')/etc.

Madmallard 9y ago
What's the test?
- tcj_phx 9y ago
  This page has a write up about folate & mental health: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-integrationist/201409/genetic-mutation-can-affect-mental-physical-health https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-integrationist/2014...

tim333 9y ago

This reminds me of research from a while back suggesting schizophrenia was related to an ancient retrovirus that entered our DNA millions of years ago and occasionally causes problems (Discover mag, "The Insanity Virus," June 2010). Reseach is ongoing: (http://discovermagazine.com/2015/sept/6-insanity-virus http://discovermagazine.com/2015/sept/6-insanity-virus). From the 2010 story: > Sixty million years ago, a lemurlike animal—an early ancestor of humans and monkeys—contracted an infection. It may not have made the lemur ill, but the retrovirus spread into the animal’s testes (or perhaps its ovaries), and once there, it struck the jackpot: It slipped inside one of the rare germ line cells that produce sperm and eggs. When the lemur reproduced, that retrovirus rode into the next generation aboard the lucky sperm and then moved on from generation to generation, nestled in the DNA. “It’s a rare, random event,” says Robert Belshaw, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Oxford in England. “Over the last 100 million years, there have been only maybe 50 times when a retrovirus has gotten into our genome and proliferated.” >...Perron in 2008, found HERV-W in the blood of 49 percent of people with schizophrenia, compared with just 4 percent of healthy people.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
> It may not have made the lemur ill I've often wondered how many viruses we contract that don't present any obvious symptoms. How would we know to look for them? Does anyone know if this idea has been looked in to?
- DamnInteresting 9y ago
  Two I am aware of that kinda fit this category are Toxoplasma gondii[1] (not technically a virus) and Adenovirus serotype 36[2]. The former has been associated with a wide array of behavioral changes, the latter is associated with obesity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii#Immune_response_and_behaviour_alterations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii#Immune_respo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenovirus_serotype_36#Role_in_obesity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenovirus_serotype_36#Role_in...
  - 9y ago

Ovah 9y ago

Contrary to what the article states, elevated levels of lactic acid per say do not cause acidification. In fact, the increase in lactic acid correlates to but is not the causation of acidosis. According to Robergs (2004) [1], it is the hydrolysis of ATP outside of the mitochondria (ATP produced in glycolysis) that increases the concentration of H+ and lowers pH. Yet, still, if the concentration of lactate increases it's a good indicator of acidosis from oxygen deficiency. [1] Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15308499 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15308499 Note: During low oxygen levels in tissue, metabolism becomes anaerobic -> lactic acid is produced. Lactic acid <-> lactate + H+.

wu-ikkyu 9y ago

>researchers continued to puzzle over if the increased acidity seen in schizophrenia and bipolar patients was truly disorder-related—or the result of other factors, such as a person’s history of antipsychotic drug use Excuse my ignorance, but I don't see how they ruled out the possible link between antipsychotic drug use and increased acidity? I'm also puzzled by how they can confidently diagnose rodents with human social disorders based solely on "genetic indicators" when the links between genetics and disorders like schizophrenia are still far from understood.

Mz 9y ago

My medical condition makes the body too acidic. This is a well known thing. Doctors know it. Patients know it. Yet, it is not treated as a primary issue. It only gets treated secondarily to help control specific developments, like acid reflux. I have known a number of bipolar people and I tend to easily click with them. I don't think I am actually bipolar, but I do suspect my medical condition sometimes impacts my brain functioning in a similar manner. Without bothering to get into lengthy anecdata I think a) acidosis likely is a root cause of mental health problems but b) solving it isn't as simple or straight forward as just controlling the acidity. If your body functions different from the norm such that the result is high acidity, there will be a lot of other knock off effects. So, it is a little like saying "Deserts are deserts because they lack water. So let's just add water." Well, no, they typically lack water because they are in the rain shadow of a mountain range. Importing water doesn't fix that. Importing it consistently, for many years may allow you to mitigate many of the effects, but you will have to keep working at it. You will not find that climate in the area "normalizes" just because you imported water and grew plants. You will still be in the rain shadow of a mountain and if you stop importing water and stop lovingly tending to human planted flora, it will eventually revert back to desert.

gameshot911 9y ago
Great analogy.
tominous 9y ago
Interesting analogy but it doesn't always hold. Take the greening of Ascension Island [1] where planting trees created a virtuous cycle: the trees trapped more moisture which promoted the growth of more trees. In biology there are many complicated feedback loops and in some cases a parameter seems to get stuck outside of the normal range. In those cases, bringing the parameter back into the normal range can be enough to allow the normal feedback mechanisms to work properly again. Some examples: * Eczema: There can be a loop between irritation, inflammation, damage to the skin, more irritation. Treat the skin with steroids to both improve symptoms and disrupt the loop. * Myopia: Studies have shown that undercorrecting for near-sightedness actually makes it worse [2]. Bringing it back into the normal range doesn't just help the symptoms, it also makes it progress slower. * Depression: Maybe operating at a higher level, but there's a clear loop between changed behaviour and improved motivation. Even something like acidity could be like this. You could speculate a link between gut bacteria and acidity, whereby changing the acidity directly could alter the balance of bacteria which locks in the change in acidity. [1] http://faculty.washington.edu/dcatling/Catling2012_GreenMountainSubmitted.pdf http://faculty.washington.edu/dcatling/Catling2012_GreenMoun... [2] http://www.journalofoptometry.org/en/under-correction-human-myopia-is/articulo/S1888429613000885/ http://www.journalofoptometry.org/en/under-correction-human-...

lostInTheWoods3 9y ago

Yet another reason to stop drinking Soda, one of the most acidic things that can be in a person's diet.

all_blue_chucks 9y ago
People don't usually inject it inside the blood/brain barrier...

pella 9y ago

> "A main source of these temporary surges is the carbon dioxide that is constantly released as the brain breaks > down sugar to generate energy, which subsequently turns into acid." The "Ketosis" / "Ketogenic diets" are helping in this case? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

DiabloD3 9y ago
Go look up Dr Dom D'agostino's work on using "medical keto" (as in, 4:1 ratio (in grams) of fat to carbs+protein, while keeping carbs at below 30g and enough protein to maintain muscle) to control epilepsy in drug resistant patients. That kind of answers your question, but not directly.

Madmallard 9y ago

Increasingly acidic diets and micronutrient malnutrition Bacteriocidal antibiotics which enduce mitochondrial dysfunction Chronic sleep deprivation and stress People with problematic genetics having children when 200 years ago it wouldn't have been possible Lots of things that contribute to the increase in the incidence of various mental illnesses Solutions are not easy at all either. If you ever see a diagram of what we know about metabolism it's ludicrous.

pdq 9y ago

Could this explain why Lithium is sometimes an effective treatment?

marcsquared 9y ago

Two words: Buteyko method See e.g. http://www.normalbreathing.com http://www.normalbreathing.com CNS/Diseases of the Brain Are Caused by Low Brain O2/CO2 Levels http://www.normalbreathing.com/diseases-Brain.php http://www.normalbreathing.com/diseases-Brain.php Sedatives | CO2: Natural Sedative and Tranquilizer http://www.normalbreathing.com/CO2-stabilizer.php http://www.normalbreathing.com/CO2-stabilizer.php After 15 years of panic attacks, anxiety, migraines, hay fever... if finally found the solution: learn to breathe correctly again. The best and cheapest thing I've ever learned for my health! This is just one site, but there are many more on the web. Not affiliated to a single one of them, but hopefully I can share the joy of a panic attack free live with at least one other person. :)

whiteandnerdy 9y ago
I'm pleased that the technique worked for you and don't want to denigrate your experience, but looking around it seems that there's very little evidence to support the Buteyko technique, and a fair few red flags: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/buteyko-breathing-technique-nothing-to-hyperventilate-about/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/buteyko-breathing-technique... If it works for you it works for you, but I'd caution readers to be skeptical when trying it out.
- marcsquared 9y ago
  Thank you for your respectful reply. I agree that everyone should be skeptical and look for evidence. For me personally it has been a godsend, that's what I can state. I also know about 5 other people who have applied this knowledge and all had noticeable improvements in various areas. Experience may vary of course. Bodies are also different. You can go the Buteyko way, Chi-Gung, Yoga, Wim Hoff method etc etc. whatever works if you need it. Generally I do however think that breathing is way, way underappreciated as a cause for various diseases. I've seen 5 medical specialists who overlooked my breathing _patterns_. I've been hooked up to heart monitoring devices, gave plenty of blood to examine and all that jazz. The solution was literally right under my nose. In the end it was a $5 USD discounted book about Buteyko's research that made all the difference. Breathe through your nose, your mouth is for eating and talking. That will already help many people. :)

kenneth_reitz 9y ago

I'm bipolar!