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Jumping Ship: Signs It's Time to Quit
- wtvanhest 9y agoIs anyone else having problems loading this website?
- sirn 9y agoIf you use uBlock or similar script-blocking extensions, temporarily unblocking scripts and XHR on parastorage.com should allow the article to be viewed.[1] Loading 157 scripts for a text article (actually, for any kind of content) seems way overkill, though. It will also cause CPU usage to spike to 100% on load, on top of that. [1]: https://files.grid.in.th/apCdTE.png https://files.grid.in.th/apCdTE.png
- wtvanhest 9y agoI'm not. Just plain firefox. Looks like the site is loading an email signup popup which freezes the browser or all the scripts. I have no idea, but it blows my mind thay anyone thinks its a good idea.
- literallycancer 9y agoIt also shows a picture/ad? over the content after a few seconds, so yeah.. this is exactly the kind of cancerous website that I'd be happy to never see again.
- sidlls 9y agoYes. I just closed the tab after a "loading spinner" sat on the sidebar for a couple of seconds, right as Firefox warned me that a script on the page was slowing the browser down. I'm just really tired of sites pushing hundreds (or even tens, really) of MB of script for text content.
- KGIII 9y agoYeah. I'm using Safari and it claims I'm using an outdated version of IE, only showing me a notice and link for Chrome.
- wepple 9y agoSafari on iPad here, terrible loading time then really clunky/slow. Only just had the patience to let it load.
- madmork 9y agoguys -thanks for all the comments on this. wasn't aware it was such an issue. Maybe it's the fact that the subscription pop up has a moving graphic. I'll remove that and hope it helps. thanks for the tip
- tener 9y agoInteresting read, although could use some proofreading.
- laxatives 9y agoAuthor seems to lack an understanding of what constitutes an equation or a conditional.
- LoSboccacc 9y agoI'm gonna add not having fun, even if it is tangentially mentioned in the different points.
- reificator 9y agoI scored a 7/7! We also score a 1 on the Joel test, and that's because I helped setup a version control server soon after arrival. We could score around a 4-5 if the emergency project I'm working on to switch platforms ever hit production, but it's been nearly a year of "it's a month away, you need to scramble to get it done in time or the company goes under". I wonder if perhaps I should start looking for new employment or something....
- Clubber 9y agoSpolsky should be required reading for any IT manager.
- eterm 9y agoIf you seriously score 1, then getting up to a score of 2 with a bug tracker will improve your life, the other 10 questions rank lower in cost/benefit. The rest is much harder to influence and make happen, but if you can't get a bug database to happen before your new-person enthusiasm / grace period ends then I'd jump ship. I've a bunch of experience working for places which don't score well on the Joel test. It's not the end of the world but you will have to make adjustments so you don't dream of better while reading about how other people have build systems which spin up instances and run integration tests on every check-in while simultaneously running machine learning over their live logging for early fault detection. Remember those kind of things are the exception rather than the norm and focus on the things you can change. You probably have a month or two more before your "I can fix this!" attitude fades and you end up the jaded developer that you saw when you arrived and wondered, "how do they put up with this environment?".
- user5994461 9y agoIt's 2017. It's not even acceptable to consider working in a company that's a 1. Should have left during the first week.
- troels 9y agoNah, eterm is right. If you can fix it, you can stay. But if that isn't possible, I wholeheartedly agree.
- tchisholm 9y ago"In my experience, teams that are permanently in this mode are their because of management." There not their.
- codingdave 9y agoI'd add an prerequisite to even thinking through whether it is time to leave a job -- know what your goals are in your life. You have to have those defined to know where your job fits, and know whether your current position is driving you towards your goals or not. And sometimes it really isn't an obvious conclusion -- a great job may give you a happy, satisfying work life, but leave you stagnant in your overall life trajectory. Or a miserable job may leave you wealthy and free to pursue your dreams at 30 years old because you sat through some pain and misery until a good payout. But aside from big picture questions like that, I've found that when push comes to shove, by the time you start asking if you should leave a job, the answer is almost always "Yes", otherwise you wouldn't be asking.
- moxious 9y agoMany people need a sort of permission to leave their jobs, usually because of the relationships they've developed and an inability to separate the work bits from the relationship bits. But yeah, if you need this checklist to show 7/7, then you've probably already stayed too long, and you're looking for psychological permission to quit
- trentmb 9y agoI've been trying to figure out what career change I could make. Simply finding another software dev job wont be an improvement if I hate writing software.
- thehardsphere 9y agoWhat about writing software do you hate?
- Clubber 9y agoIf I were to guess, it would be the process.
- marmshallow 9y agoIf I were to guess, it would be the guesswork.
- ghthor 9y agoHave you built any software you're proud of? I'm assuming you mean the team dynamic and project management "process". I'm still on my journey to escaping that dumb rat race, but I feel it's possible. Some liberal applications of cryptocurrwncy might enable a large portion of software engineers to become self employed and focus are problems they are interested in.
- Clubber 9y ago>Have you built any software you're proud of? Yes, quite a few systems. For all of them, the process was essentially, "here's our problem, go solve it."
- thehardsphere 9y agoThe reason I asked was to see what the OP would say, to see if there was some job like software that didn't have whatever he didn’t like about it.
- CalChris 9y agoEarlier rather than later. If someone you respect decides to pack it in, you should have a look around. That doesn't mean follow them out the door since it is always easier to find a job if you have a job. But you should take a good hard look at the situation. As for the article, I have definitely fallen for Believing your own bullshit.
- troels 9y agoYou forgot the good old "clueless top-down micromanagement". Usually wrapped in some flavour of "agile", although it's anything but.
- Joeri 9y agoDefinitely that. The most unhappy period of my working career was a period where I was micro-managed under the guise of "agile". We had detailed sprints planned months in advance, with very tight deadlines, and with endless meetings where nothing of much importance got done. I especially loved the demo's where all feedback was ignored because the coming sprints were already fully planned and there was no room for extra work. Luckily the people responsible for that situation are no longer working for my employer, or I wouldn't be. It was a genuine me-or-them situation.
- madmork 9y agoyeah. touche. i haven't suffered that one personally but that could be a post all unto itself.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- re1man 9y ago#8 Money?
- ahallock 9y agoI've been in #7 (perpetual crisis) a few times. Eventually, it's like the boy who cried wolf and you start tuning it out. I was a contractor, luckily, so it was easier to ignore than a full-time employee. Companies try to trap you in this family mentality, almost like a cult, just to drain you like a vampire. I prefer to be a "mercenary" -- I do great work, get paid, the end. I don't want to be a part of the family or drink the Kool-Aid.
- drdeadringer 9y agoI'm currently in the same situation as you describe. It's been interesting against where I started out.
- icantdrive55 9y agoThat "We're a family here!" has been going on forever. Every time I'm told that, by a few hours in, I'm thinking; The Manson Family.
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- tiggybear 9y agoI really, truly believe it is immoral to 'not care about money.' I really think all of this crap that employers shovel on us, care about the mission, changing the world, have passion for what you do every day, and take pride in trying to up your output, etc etc etc, is well, CRAP! In a system that 100% revolves around money, it seems inefficient to heavily prioritize anything besides money. Can you imagine going to a taco stand and saying to the cashier, "I really need 10 tacos, but before I hire you to make them for me I need to know how passionate you are about making tacos. Also, can you let me know where you see yourself in 5 years, I don't want to hire you to make tacos if you don't think you will be doing this in the future! Additionally, I don't think the price you listed is fair. How about I give you 80% of what you typically charge, but you will also get the satisfaction that you are helping me change the world! I am building an app to automate business processes and I need to eat, the more resources you give me at a discounted price the more resources I can dump into accomplishing my dream." I really wish all questions in interviews were illegal other than "can you do this job", "can you prove that you can do this job", and "will you accept this wage to do this job?" Everything else should be illegal and the employment laws should be changed to allow fast firing without detriment to the company. I don't know why, but when I'm analyzing transactions within capitalism I like to frame them around a taco shop :)
- pauldprice 9y agoI don't disagree with these points, but you have to question the author's ability to ever find a job that will work for him long term. Over ten companies in 20 years is a sad resume that calls into question either his ability to seek out meaningful employment or some other issue with the author, like terminal "grass is greener" syndrome.
- tiggybear 9y agoThis makes no sense to me. If an entrepreneur had 20+ clients over 10 years, does that make them unable to find a client that will work for them? The author likely has a different view of the purpose of employment compared to many.
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- devwastaken 9y ago>Over ten companies in 20 years is a sad resume that calls into question either his ability to seek out meaningful employment or some other issue with the author, like terminal "grass is greener" syndrome. Changing jobs is what does work long term for them. In any proffession, why do you have to be at the same place for years upon years? In the tech industry, you will rarely get paid more, learn more, or really 'move up' if you stay.
- ghthor 9y agoThis is because our companies are all being structure into top down authoritarians dictatorships. The employees are weak, and management wants them to stay weak. Until this changes the only power the employee has to make change is to play politics or leave. Most of us are software engineers because we don't want to play politics, we want to build the future of civilization. We need new organizational structures that enable democracy at work.
- madmork 9y agoYou're actually 100% right. That's why after this last one I permanently decided to stop working for others and focus on what I'm doing now: Coaching others to not make the mistakes I did and writing to help those i can't help directly ;)
- robertlagrant 9y agoThis article definitely creates and then never uses unnecessary three letter acronyms (uTLAs).
- tjalfi 9y agoI scored a 4 out of 7 (1, 2, 3, 7). Changing jobs will probably require a significant pay cut but the alternative is watching my career slowly die.
- rrggrr 9y ago>If you’re working in a startup with limited resources, it’s really up to you to craft your own role, take ownership. This advice applies to ALL jobs and not just startups. The most valuable employees in almost any organization autonomously grow their value and power by delivering results outside the four corners of the job description.
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- rothbardrand 9y agoI've found a very strong correlation between high amounts of very powerful kool-aid and terribly negative team dynamics. Microsoft in the mid 1990s was not great, but it doesn't hold a candle to Amazon in the mid 2000s (and to this day) which is a highly emotionally manipulative cult with terrible backstabbing politics, stack ranking and incompetent leadership. One early signal of this is if the company has a book that everyone is supposed to read. (For amazon it was required indoctrination for new employees)... though there are exceptions-- one startup required everyone to read "Crossing the Chasm" and while that company wasn't well run, that book wasn't part of the problem. OH, the book thing may not be obvious-- a company must be run in a dynamic fashion. If everyone is mindlessly quoting cult slogans (e.g.: amazons "IT's day one!") or citing chapter and verse in a bible then it shuts down reasonable thinking. The book becomes a source of thought terminating cliches. I think this kind of cult ideology may be taking root at places like Google and Mozilla and Facebook where they seem to be forming a rigid homogenous ideology (though I haven't worked there, so that's just speculation from an outsider)
- thinbeige 9y agoOP lived in eleven countries, worked at ten companies, knows companies in and out and the signs when it's time to jump ship. Why do such people with that vast experience always stay employed, keep critisizing but never start their own company and show us how to run a business the right way?
- codingdave 9y agoNot everyone has the personality to start a company, or be the CEO. I've certainly had the experience to do so as well, but I really do like to be the #2 guy in the background, not the #1 guy out in public. And I know that about myself, so I seek out leaders to follow instead of starting my own thing.
- ryandrake 9y agoNot to mention not everyone has the capital or viable business idea either. Ive always found the “just start a company” thing to be simplistic and loaded with assumptions.
- thinbeige 9y agoYou don't need own capital to start a company. It sounds harder without capital but actually it is easier. The less capital you have the more creative you get and the better you business model will be. And if you still need money there are tons of investors out there. Getting their funds is not easy but having no capital shouldn't be an excuse to not start a business.
- eropple 9y ago> You don't need own capital to start a company. This is fairly privileged silliness. That capital is how you pay rent and feed yourself and your family while you actually build a business. Those of us (and I am one) who are able to safely and effectively live off of savings to build a business are the vanishing exception, not the rule, in America. The next person who says "just work nights and weekends" is telegraphing how richly they morally deserve one upside. "Burn everything else in your life to probably still fail at building a company" is gross, nasty advice. And, coupled with the continual throwing out of any temperament filter with regards to whether one should create a business--at best it is a failure of compassion and empathy.
- mwfunk 9y agoIMO #6 (Believing Your Own BS) is very similar to "Success Hides Failure". If a company achieves great success, it can become very hard to push against the status quo. Any argument that boils down to, "we've done X this way for years, but we should do Y instead" can be shot down with, "but we've been so successful for all those years, clearly we know what we're doing". People who are naturally inclined to always stay the course are given a very powerful rhetorical device with which to argue. The real conundrum is that in many cases they might be right. It's a powerful argument because it's often true. Correlation does not imply causation, but causation usually results in correlation. Many of these arguments end up being rooted in people's gut feelings about things, and get resolved through org charts instead of rationality.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Jare 9y ago- "I don't want to hear your problems, only your solutions" - "If anyone doesn't like it here, the door is open" These may sound obviously toxic, but often are taken with a grain of salt by many employees. In my 25 yrs, I have never seen a team or company recover to a remotely healthy state after a high level manager utters either of them [EDIT: to the team; individually it may make sense, but see thread below] (5 times, 2 personally and 3 from the sidelines). If you are an employee and you hear that, jump ship. If you are a manager and you say that, resign. If one of your reports says it, fire them.
- ChemicalWarfare 9y agotwo situations I was personally involved with (as in on the same team with these ppl): 1 - reasonably smart dude (probably top tech guy in the team) acting like he was "the hot sh1t", going couple levels above his manager's to constantly complain about things not being done the way he wanted them done; 2 - run of the mill dude with a "I'm going to slack because I can get a better job elsewhere" attitude. both of them were told to go look elsewhere if they didn't like it. which they both did leave eventually. don't see anything wrong with management telling them that the door was open.
- Joeri 9y agoIt depends on how the message is given. Just suggesting that someone voluntarily leave when you're not happy with their performance is bad management. As a manager, either you try to coach the person to perform better, or you take action to part ways.
- Jare 9y agoTwo notes on that: - I was thinking of situation where the manager is speaking to the team-at-large, not to specific people individually. Sorry for not making that clear in my post. - Sounds like they were already a problem and should have been let go instead of hoping they would do it themselves. "Eventually" can be a long, and painful, time. But I respect that there are circumstances where this may not be possible or advisable. I was once in a similar position with a report of mine, but I felt important to draw the line at specific behaviour rather than the vague "don't like it". So we sat down, discussed my and his expectations, established some rules and boundaries, and managed to survive the project; not as friends, but as professionals doing our work.
- vonuebelgarten 9y agoThis site is absolutely unusable (breaks when I block some scripts, trackers, etc. and even fails to load in archive.is). For anybody who wants to read the article, I just put a text-only transcript in https://pastebin.com/raw/k22WtvmG https://pastebin.com/raw/k22WtvmG
- danjoc 9y agoThanks for the effort. I had the same experience. I just closed the tab and forgot about it. Any site so poorly designed doesn't deserve to be read IMO :)
- synicalx 9y agoWhy do people get so funny about quitting their job? You're allowed to quit, it's ok! You don't owe your employer anything (professionally). If they don't like the fact you left, that is quite literally their problem.
- baccheion 9y agoAs a software engineer, if it's been about 2 years, then it's time to jump ship (unless there's a clear indicator not to).
- madmork 9y agoThanks for all the feedback guys - good or bad. It's all helpful. If you found that post useful, I just published the followup post to that: 3 Steps to Finding your Dream Job. Hope it helps and have a great weekend: https://www.madmork.com/single-post/2017/08/31/Need-a-Job-Change-Heres-how https://www.madmork.com/single-post/2017/08/31/Need-a-Job-Ch...