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The Life and Death of the Touch Bar: Revisiting the MacBook Pro

118 points by tolien 9y ago

Girlang 9y ago
Apple doesn't care about pro users or developers. The people who designed the touch bar probably do nothing with their computers but swipe left or right on Grindr all day long, so they thought the touch bar would be great for that.
yellow_postit 9y ago
Apple got ahead of itself with the touchbar and it's no surprise they have not pushed on it much since release. I sincerely hope they are mature enough to recognize it was not the right tech and pull it from future laptops.
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  Really? Why is it not the right tech? I got the version without, but is it universally bad..?
  - colechristensen 9y ago
    It feels like a cheesy gimmick, I miss being able to change brightness/volume without looking at the keyboard, and I preferred my escape key to be a key. It's been a few months and I have yet to use it for anything keys didn't already do.
    - nkkollaw 9y ago
      Got it.
- Steko 9y ago
  > pull it from future laptops. I expect the opposite. They will continue to iterate and fix the issues with the touchbar which many users already like and appreciate. The obvious change to make is the addition of haptic feedback.
  - tomxor 9y ago
    >The obvious change to make is the addition of haptic feedback. Yeah they are called physical keys, no need to make a NASA pen... didn't Apple buy out some company making keyboards out of tiny e-ink dipslays, that would actually make sense. Making keys out of a touchscreen when the only reason to look at it is because there are no physical keys on the other hand is ridiculous.
    - cyphar 9y ago
      I agree with your point about physical keys, just a quick aside about: > no need to make a NASA pen The "NASA pen" urban legend (often used to comment on the contrast between American over-spending on innovation and Russian common-sense) is actually a myth. Both NASA and the Soviets used pencil-based technology originally -- NASA used ordinary sharpening-based pencils (later moving to mechanical pencils), while Soviets used more crayon-like "grease pencils". There were flaws with both technologies, and a private American company (Fisher) created a pen they claimed could work in space which was later adopted by both NASA and the Soviets. NASA only paid $4.00 per pen, nowhere near the "millions of dollars" often cited as the cost of development. http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
      - tomxor 9y ago
        Thanks I did not know that, however... In spite of it's truth it is an extremely useful metaphor when trying to make a point about unnecessarily complex over-engineering to no actual benefit to the user. Do you have any alternatives which are not myths? (Sincere question)
        Judgmentality 9y ago
        The vertical doors on Tesla SUVs. Doors are actually one of the most complicated parts of a car to manufacture and make reliable, and those doors are widely credited with why the shipments were late. In addition to people complaining about their reliability and their absurdly high cost, they provide no real benefit. Supposedly you can park in tighter spaces and get out, however the front doors still open like regular car doors. So assuming the driver also wants to get out, it's pretty fucking useless.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  I hope not: it’s the single most used new tech on my mbp. It’s useful, better than the useless row of keys that was there before (ok, if you’re using old IDEs they may still be useful), and adds functionality
  - sarthakjain 9y ago
    Could you describe how you find it useful?
    - abritinthebay 9y ago
      Sure, I use it every day to do small things that, yes many I could have set custom bindings for, now have dedicated space. Also touch screen for volume, brightness, and video scrubbing === better than keys.
- pier25 9y ago
  I agree with you. Not being able to get a version without the TB was one of the reasons for buying a 2015 model instead.
- jest3r1 9y ago
  The touch bar will evolve into a touch screen keyboard.
  - userbinator 9y ago
    ...and if/when it does, Apple and its fans will praise it as being amazing innovation, forgetting the fact that Acer tried the same thing many years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_Iconia_6120 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_Iconia_6120 As someone who can actually type without looking at the keys, I would never buy a laptop without a real physical keyboard.
  - camus 9y ago
    > The touch bar will evolve into a touch screen keyboard. Have you ever tried to type on a touch keyboard without looking at it?
  - yborg 9y ago
    God, I hope not.
  - notadoc 9y ago
    You ever typed on an iPad or Fire keyboard? Good luck!
    - nilved 9y ago
      You ever typed on an iPhone keyboard? BlackBerry's physical keyboard was far better. It didn't matter.
      - notadoc 9y ago
        Ugh, you are right and that makes me sad. But it works for iPhone thanks to a combination of changes in habit and autocorrect and plenty of typos, whereas no matter how much I have tried I have never made typing work on a tablet.
  - bitwize 9y ago
    When I saw the Idiot Bar I thought immediately of the "MacBook Wheel" video from The Onion.
- dennyabraham 9y ago
  Adding haptics and the ability to make it static (even outside of login sessions) would make it much more friendly to touch-typists. It could also stand to adhere keyboard brightness configuration
- foobarian 9y ago
  This is what happens without an uncompromising design lead at the helm. One person is probably pushing this feature because it's their baby, and nobody else has enough power to shut it down (though they probably grumble about it).
TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
A big problem with it is that, as a new interface only supported on the high-end new MacBook Pro, you still have to design your apps to work perfectly without it, lest you exclude users of the old MacBook Pro, users of the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro, MacBook users, MacBook Air users, Mac mini users, iMac users, and iMac Pro users.
- coralreef 9y ago
  That's considered a "big" problem for Mac app developers?
  - jsemrau 9y ago
    Yes, 2 out of us 3 complained about it during lunch.
  - ghostly_s 9y ago
    It's a big problem for Apple, unless they somehow make touchbar support mandatory in XCode. No-one's going to bother developing the elaborate custom applications for it like Apple did in iMovie if a minority of their customer base will ever see them, and that makes the adoption problem even bigger.
- vlunkr 9y ago
  Don't forget people with the touch bar who might also use an external keyboard!
  - Corrado 9y ago
    Exactly! It's been months since the new Touch Bar MBP was released and there are still no keyboards that offer the Touch Bar experience. Does Apple not realize that quite a few people use external keyboards? I'm thinking that Apple is not going to move forward with the Touch Bar concept or is going to change it so much that we won't really recognize it as the same thing.
    - 9y ago
RyanShook 9y ago
Reminds me of 3D Touch. It could become useful but right now it's a solution to a problem I don't have and most developers can't find a useful way to implement it.
- pducks32 9y ago
  Can’t speak of touchbar but I don’t understand the hate for 3D Touch. I love it and use it a lot. Sure discoverability sucks but I think it’s worth while.
  - nomel 9y ago
    I think discoverability is the main problem. Nobody knows what it can do. I use the quick cursor placement (push and slide when editing text) and fast app switching (push left edge and swipe to middle to switch to previous app) many many times per day. A few games, like Pixel Gun 3d, use it fantastically, since it's actually multi finger 3d touch. It's a first person shooter with standard move with left finger and look with right, with the addition of jump by pushing left and shoot by pushing right.
  - alsetmusic 9y ago
    I have to agree that 3D Touch is a highly desirable feature for me. For example, it allows me to respond to text messages without switching apps. I also use it to preview links before deciding if I want to follow them when web browsing. I expect that over time it will grow in usefulness beyond the current applications. Apple iterates the hell out of features. Remember that there was no copy / paste on the original iPhone.
- SomeHacker44 9y ago
  First thing I do is turn off 3D touch. Too complicated and too much mental load to distinguish a normal touch, a force touch, and a long touch.
rcthompson 9y ago
It's interesting that a lot of the OP's reason for not needing the Touch Bar and/or TouchID is that the Apple Watch replaces it, because if I recall, the Touch Bar effectively is a built-in Apple Watch with a funny-shaped screen (i.e. it's a tiny iOS device). So it's not surprising that the watch provides much of the same functionality.
breatheoften 9y ago
Two features of touchbar that I use consistently are enough for me to pretty much like after initially not seeing the point at all -- 1. when taking a screenshot touchbar shows an option to toggle between the various destinations (desktop, documents, clipboard) -- nice because these keyboard shortcuts are really hard to type and often I don't make up my mind about where I want the picture to go until I'm in the middle of selecting the region 2. Scrubbing between safari tabs is a pretty nice feature -- I find myself using it a lot.
- sarthakjain 9y ago
  2 generic use cases that emerge from the points you mentioned 1) An equivalent interface to the Android snackbar which is a contextual "more options" menu to the most recent interaction 2) Global hirerachy and navigation
- marban 9y ago
  As for tabs 2) I only see a mish-mash of pixels — How does this work for you?
_ix 9y ago
Why can't I swipe backward on this website? Does the author dislike both the TouchBar and the MultiTouch Trackpads? ;)
fossuser 9y ago
I think Apple should kill the MacBook Air (not sure why it wasn't killed a long time ago when the new 12 inch MacBook launched). Then all MacBook Pros should have the touch bar if they're going to keep it (no 13 inch two port version without one). It's strange to me that the Airs and the MacBook Pro without touch bar exist.
- quicklyfrozen 9y ago
  Why can't we have a choice instead, for both 13" and 15" models? IMO, the cheaper models still exist so they still have some chance of selling into education.
- notadoc 9y ago
  On the contrary, Apple should make the "Touch Bar" a build-to-order option and let people opt out of it. There's a reason the 13" two port weaker version is so popular.
- atonse 9y ago
  God I hope not. We just bought a 13" non touch bar MacBook pro and it's been simply awesome. The touch bar looked like a total waste of $300 extra, so we instead put that into memory upgrades and Apple care. I'm fine with the touch bar being a premium feature, I just don't want to pay that premium.
- gnicholas 9y ago
  > I think Apple should kill the MacBook Air (not sure why it wasn't killed a long time ago when the new 12 inch MacBook launched). Because the MacBook is substantially slower than the MBA, has fewer ports, and a higher starting price? I'd love to replace my aging MBA, but the MacBook is too much money for not enough machine. (And I don't love the expensive new MBPs.)
- rando444 9y ago
  They did sadly kill off the 11" macbook air shortly after the 12" macbook launched.
  - 9y ago
rectang 9y ago
What can the touch bar do that a touch screen could not?
- valuearb 9y ago
  - Keep the screen lighter and the perfect screen tilt adjustments Apple laptops are famous for. - Keep smudges off your bright new screen. - Keep your hands on the home row. - Keep tap areas in the OS sized to cursors, not fat fingers.
Finbarr 9y ago
Just got a new MBP with touchbar and am finding it quite annoying for these reasons: - there seems to be no way to dim it and it's way too bright in the dark. - the context specific functions appearing and disappearing make it really eye catching and distracting. There also seems to be a slight lag before it updates with the latest context. (I ended up switching it to only show some small subset of default controls). - I'm hardly using it at all, but sometimes it just stops responding. Hitting the buttons doesn't do anything. - it's too easy to accidentally tap one of the buttons. All in all I think it's a gimmick and I'd much rather have a physical escape key.
- na85 9y ago
  That's interesting because I expected to hate mine but am rather ambivalent towards the touch bar. I've never had the touch bar malfunction, nor do I find it distracting or too bright at night, even on a lakeside dock in cottage country. I agree, though, that occasionally I will switch the input language to French due accidentally hitting the the bar. It's too sensitive. The biggest surprise for me, though, was that I don't miss the physical F keys nor Escape, even a little bit.
  - taf2 9y ago
    Do either of you use vim?
    - justanotherbody 9y ago
      I use it, and have a mb with touch bar. Using solely the laptop keyboard was fine. Transitioning between the laptop keyboard and an external was not. I ended up adding a binding for "jk" to exit editing mode. Very pleased
      - w0m 9y ago
        Is there an issue with ctrl-c that makes jk more convenient?
      - 9y ago
ramenmeal 9y ago
TouchID is the only feature I've used on the touch bar, I've had this mac for ~4 months as a full time dev. Even then, I think I can type my password in the time it recognizes my finger. The rest of the touch bar is a disaster. The last button I want to accidentally press is un-mute or the play button. I can switch it to be a function row, but still then I don't want to accidentally touch f5, f10,11,12 while developing.
- robbyt 9y ago
  I use a zsh plugin that changes the F1/2/3 keys to show information about my cwd, so I can have a simplified PS1. I can't remember the name of the plugin, but I'm sure you can find it if you're interested.
- konceptz 9y ago
  I frequently lock my computer (set the lock button on the touch bar so it's my fault, but in line with no haptic feedback) when I try to hit other buttons.
  - srikz 9y ago
    I found even the lock button to be a bit unreliable. If you tap on lock and almost immediately hit any other key on the keyboard, it resumes back and you have full access!
- bouke 9y ago
  While I also like TouchID, I find that the implementation of software wise is half-assed though. For example; the login screen won't show the password prompt until you entered the first key. So if you wake the machine, you don't know if the machine is ready to accept your input as you can't see a blinking cursor. While this would make sense if you alway use TouchID -- no need to enter your password right. But when using in clamshell mode (lid closed), it STILL won't prompt for a password. And you just have to guess whether the machine is ready, or still busy waking from sleep.
ThomPete 9y ago
Touch bar is great for 1 control things like volume or as a lever for something. For everything else it doesn't work because it switches meaning based on the context and thus makes it close to impossible to apply muscle memory to.
bitmapbrother 9y ago
The touchbar is a problem looking for a solution. For the premium they charge for it I fail to see how it returns its value. Perhaps this was innovation for the sake of innovation, but I don't see the touchbar having a prolonged lifespan. Sooner or later Apple is going to come to the realization that they need a touchscreen on the MacBook. On a related note, I was trying out the MacBooks at an Apple store and couldn't believe how bad the keyboards have become. The key travel was nearly non existent. Perhaps this is Apple's way of slowly conditioning their users to a keyboard with no physical keys, but rather touch keys powered by force touch. It certainly seems like the next evolution as they keep reducing the key travel lower and lower. The sensation of typing on the keyboard, IMO, was so bad that I would never purchase or recommend one. I would, however, still recommend the previous generation with a proper keyboard.
- johansch 9y ago
  After a couple of months I have actually come to like the typing experience of the new keyboard - when it works. The keys need constant cleaning. Simple dust/dirt particles that don't really affect the old keyboards are the nemesis of this keyboard. I have to literally blow into keys to get rid of dust/dirt particles every single day. Just recently the smaller up/down keys have simply stopped registering presses (unless you press they keys quite firmly). Many other people have this issue too; here is one thread discussing it: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7769526 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7769526 It's so bizarre to have to remap some unused modifier keys to up/down because of a likely design flaw on a flagship product like this.
- jack_kc 9y ago
  Did you mean a solution looking for a problem? I can't think of a single problem that is solved by the touchbar.
- camus 9y ago
  > The touchbar is a problem looking for a solution. For the premium they charge for it I fail to see how it returns its value. Perhaps this was innovation for the sake of innovation, but I don't see the touchbar having a prolonged lifespan. Sooner or later Apple is going to come to the realization that they need a touchscreen on the MacBook. IMHO the Surface Book from Microsoft is a great idea with a beautiful design but poorly executed [1] I would have expected Apple to come up with this kind of product and phase out both the Macbook Air and the ipad. The Macbook + touchbar seems so half baked I'm not sure why Apple thought it was a good idea. 1: http://www.thespectrum.com/story/life/features/mesquite/2017/08/25/consumer-reports-drops-microsoft-surface/603547001/ http://www.thespectrum.com/story/life/features/mesquite/2017...
idlewords 9y ago
Unlike the author, I have a long passphrase on 1password and find the ability to use the fingerprint sensor a godsend. I've found that the Touch Bar will freeze up sometimes and make it impossible to regulate volume (though muting still works). But this seems to be part of the general neglect of OS X rather than a drawback of the hardware.
- SomeHacker44 9y ago
  I don't use the TouchID. The last thing I want is my authentication to be coerced by just knocking me out and using my finger. My pass phrase may also be able to be coerced but not by law abiding people and government agents.
  - konceptz 9y ago
    I have the same quandary while traveling abroad. Giving your fingerprints while entering a country means you're giving the country your passwords.
    - idlewords 9y ago
      I turn the TouchID feature off while traveling. I think it's important to have different habits with phone and computer security when you're on the move, and I hope it becomes the accepted practice.
- robbyt 9y ago
  Touchbar 2 will likely "be even faster than Touchbar 1, and more responsive than ever!"
notadoc 9y ago
It's fairly obvious by now that nobody wants a Touch Bar. Pro users that I know want: - A great keyboard (yes with an actual physical Escape key) - 32 GB RAM, with 64 GB optional - Common ports including boring old USB and HDMI, and a headphone jack - Good battery life at a reasonable weight compromise I hope Apple realizes the current MacBook Pro is a flop and backtracks on the many poor decisions that went into it.
- clumsysmurf 9y ago
  And maybe 1mm thicker in exchange for repairability
  - cyphar 9y ago
    Not only does Apple not care about repairability, they actively fight against the ability for users to repair their own devices. In my mind that's probably the biggest "innovation" that Apple has pushed forward in the industry -- making it effectively impossible for users to fix and replace parts of their own devices and appliances. For example, it is currently not possible for anyone other than Apple to replace any part of the Touch Bar. And I've not seen a disassembly of the new MacBook which didn't result in damage to the Touch Bar -- requiring it to be replaced.
    - bitwize 9y ago
      Modern cars suck for "car guys" because they're impossible to repair without specialized equipment and expertise. They're great for everyone else since they need so little repair compared to cars in the past. It's the same for computers. You shouldn't need to fix your computer. It should Just Work throughout its entire service lifetime. Especially if it's as well built as an Apple.
      - Corrado 9y ago
        I agree, however I do think it's nice to be able to upgrade your system without having to take it back to the manufacturer. I can't afford 16GB right now but in a year or two I can install more RAM and continue to use the computer. With the current Apple products even this simple type of upgrade is impossible.
bphogan 9y ago
Folks, the touchbar is 1000x more useful if you have a BetterTouchTool license. I have mine customized completely, with app-specific shortcuts. It's amazing. Without BTT, the touchbar is kinda silly. But with it? You can do some rad stuff with it. I urge you to try it out and see what you can do with it. You can even execute a shell script and put the results in there.
roberttod 9y ago
As much as I love the engineering behind the touch bar I never saw a good reason for it. I think context switching buttons is poor UX, you shouldn't need to look at the keyboard when you're using it. I miss the days I could quickly adjust the volume or brightness of my MacBook with the touch of a physical key who's position doesn't move (navigating a touchscreen for these controls is wholly unnecessary).
- derefr 9y ago
  The touchbar makes more sense if you don't consider it a modal part of the keyboard, but rather a touchable part of the screen. Like the bottom screen of a Nintendo DS.
  - ramses0 9y ago
    Well then put it there and give me my escape and FN keys back!
  - cynic_ 9y ago
    I've played some of the popular DS games on a smartphone with a minuscule second screen and I barely touched it. Most of its uses felt forced
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  What engineering? It's a screen with icons on it. Nothing special technically. Could be done with an Arduino if you were so inclined.
  - AsyncAwait 9y ago
    I think what they meant was that the touch bar is essentially a whole separate computer with its own ARM chip, running a modified version of WatchOS, communicating with the MBP.
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      Okay so it is over-engineered. Usually that's a bad thing.
taurath 9y ago
I like the features they've expanded since release - even chrome works really nice with video controls.
andy_ppp 9y ago
I think it’s a decent machine but I’ve had a few issues. The power brick is super slippery and I dropped it onto the screen, which shattered immediately as if it was sprung/under constant tension. The “b” key is intermittent or repeats randomly. There is no dirt under the keys. The touchbar is flipping useless and I always select the volume slider accidentally rather than mute. The buttons at either end of the slider don’t mean mute or full volume they mean increment and decrement which is clearly wrong. The screen replacement cost £724 but very very luckily it was within my 90 day accidental damage insurance on my credit card!
revelation 9y ago
Wait, people lock all their passwords behind their fingerprint? Why would you turn a good idea like a password manager into the safety equivalent of a wet towel?
- nomel 9y ago
  Is this still true in 2017? My understanding is that the newer version is looking within your finger, rather than surface fingerprints, which could be lifted. From their presentation "scans sub epidermal skin layer".
- valuearb 9y ago
  Because good security that people actually use is far better than perfect security they won't?
suprgeek 9y ago
The touch bar is useless - worse than useless 1) No haptic feedback if I hit a key - did I hit it? just terrible for touch typists 2) Context switching according to an app - now you expect me to remember another whole new way to interact in addition to on-screen and keyboard short cuts - WHY? 3) Should I look at the keyboard or not - if not then why do the glowy keys on the keyboard keep distracting me? If yes then WTF is the screen for? 4)Do all Apple products have this or not? Why is there no external keyboard with TouchBar? Complete misfire on Apple's part (Reference : Currently use MBP 15 latest version for work)
- xapata 9y ago
  A large number of users are not touch typists and do not remember keyboard shortcuts. They look down at the keyboard when typing. Those users will love the touch bar.
  - tfcata 9y ago
    Then don't call it pro.
    - adrianN 9y ago
      I've seen many professional programmers typing with two fingers while looking at the keyboard.
      - dingo_bat 9y ago
        I do this and even though I'm not a touch typist, there is a sense of position information about keys in my mind. However with the touch bar (I'm assuming, having never used one for longer than 2 minutes), even that sense will not help.
  - dbbk 9y ago
    Is there really a large overlap between people looking down at the keyboard, and people buying a professional machine?
brians 9y ago
It's surprising to me that so few recognize the touch bar for its real purpose: trusted path I/O. Imagine a password manager interacting with the secure element using the touch bar. Or a U2F device. Or a document signing applet. Or access control for iOS device backups. Or purchasing.
- Corrado 9y ago
  I think this is a great idea and would go a long way to changing my opinion of the Touch Bar. Has Apple actually made strides to using it as a U2F device?
- malloryerik 9y ago
  Are you referring to the Touch ID rather than the Touch Bar proper?
egypturnash 9y ago
I just recently bought a new MBP. Normally I would get the fastest CPU and biggest SSD as as a custom build. But this time I did not. Because that's only available with the touch bar.
cletus 9y ago
Honestly this whole situation is so frustrating as a user. I now have a 2017 MBP and every day I try to hate it a little less but it's hard work. I miss the old keyboard. Touch Bar is gimmicky and I'd be happier without it. Only USB-C is idiotic. No more Magsafe stil kills me. The old trackpad was better. For years I just wanted a better Macbook Air (ie upgraded display and specs). The 13" MBA was about perfect IMHO. Reasonably cheap and a great form factor. Yet even Apple succumbed to the fatal disease of "adding value" by changing a winning formula. Force Touch lack discovery and is terrible (this is particularly the case for the phones). Sadly, the alternative (non-Apple laptops) is just so much worse. I have a Dell XPS 15 and it's fine I guess but it's STILL much worse than MBP/OSX. Why does everything suck?
- konceptz 9y ago
  I actually enjoy the similarly priced dell laptops with USB-c and the dell dock. I also do hate the touch bar especially when it crashes.
- pentae 9y ago
  Agree wholreheartedly. I am still savage that I cannot buy the 15" without paying an extra $300 premium for a touch bar that serves to do nothing but constantly annoy me.
  - qrbLPHiKpiux 9y ago
    The keyboard annoys me the most.
- coldtea 9y ago
  For a counter opinion, I could not care less about Magsafe (I thought I would, but I don't miss it). I really do appreciate that I can now hook the MBP into power from any side and port. I also like the USB-C: bought a few $80 total cables for everything (USB-C HDMI, USB-C to hard disk, USB-C to printer etc) and I no longer need any dongles either (just the respective USB-C to X cable, as I would have used a USB-A to X cable before). $80 is not much when one is talking of a $2000 / $3000 laptop. And increasingly new peripherals will come with direct USB-C support anyway. The display and brightness and colors is also killer. And I appreciate the Touch ID very much (1Password, lock screen, payments). That said: new trackpad is a problem for me, because I tend to touch it as I type (since it's bigger). And the touch strip I don't care about. I would prefer if it was individual strip of actual buttons (physical) that would light up with images and be customizable (like the Optimus Prime keyboard).
firedev 9y ago
I will never buy a notebook with touch bar and regretting getting this one. As a vim user I would vote for Esc any day. Same issue on the iPad keyboard cover.
- rhinoceraptor 9y ago
  It’s also annoying that the iPad keyboard cover actually has more (and IMO better) key travel than the new Macbooks. Other than the lack of escape and function keys, I wouldn’t mind too much typing on it for development.
chj 9y ago
I am desperately waiting for a No-Touch-Bar version of MBP 15. If not, I may have to settle with the 13 version. I am not ready to part with a physical ESC just yet.
coldtea 9y ago
>Much as I love the TouchID sensor, what keeps me from missing it much is 1Password. It’s marginally more work for me to type in my password to open 1Password than use my fingerprint, but not much. My Apple Watch unlocks the Mac, and so I don’t need the TouchID sensor for that, and when I use Apple Pay on the iMac, the Watch makes that quite painless, too. So having lived with the Touch Bar and Touch ID sensor for months and then migrated away from them again, I’ve found they seem to be solving problems I don’t really have. The touch strip maybe. Touch ID not at all -- you only missed it "a little" because you already have an Apple Watch to automatically unlock your Mac.
cutler 9y ago
My Macbook Pro is 4 years old and in good nick but I won't fork out for another when it dies. Not because of the Touch Bar but the general build quality. I looked at the latest Macbook Pro in the Apple Store and the screen hinge feels so fragile compared with its predecessor. Apple seem to be obsessed with thin and lightweight but that's not what everyone wants. Their marketing has never been aimed at what pro users really want. Why make a laptop which can last 6 years or more instead of a flimsy, lightweight version at the same price which is guaranteed to break in half the time?
- valuearb 9y ago
  Apple makes the best laptop hinges in the industry. It goes where you want and stays where you want. If you think the new one is actually fragile (it isn't) get one with AppleCare, and you'll get fresh new laptops every time one breaks.
  - malloryerik 9y ago
    I've heard that you'll actually get fresh refurbished laptops, no?
    - aklemm 9y ago
      That, I suspect, was true when I replaced my iPhone under AppleCare and the replacement has been really wonky. Various flimsiness with the body of the phone, GPS is spotty and sometimes completely fails. Disappointing.
  - cutler 9y ago
    Better still, get at ThinkPad with a hinge that doesn't break in the first place.
kevinflo 9y ago
I've found myself so annoyed with the touch bar I used this great disabler https://github.com/LumingYin/TouchBarDisabler https://github.com/LumingYin/TouchBarDisabler Conveniently, it maps key combos like ctrl+1 to make the screen dimmer it ctrl+2 to make the screen brighter. Definitely would prefer real keys though if they made a 15 inch with them.
gamad 9y ago
I can't imagine working without an ESC key. I think many of the complaints could have been alleviated if they left this one key on the machine.
ljoshua 9y ago
Tangential, but I recently discovered how to find refurbished (read: early 2015, pre-Touch Bar/USB-C models) for sale on Apple's store site, even when not listed in the refurb section. Found it when trying to avoid buying a new one myself. I wrote up a quick explanation here: http://www.joshualyman.com/2017/08/find-hidden-apple-refurbs/ http://www.joshualyman.com/2017/08/find-hidden-apple-refurbs...
craigc 9y ago
I am glad to read articles like this since I specifically opted to get the non-touchbar MacBook Pro when the new models came out. The only annoying thing about the non-touchbar model is that the specs are not quite as good. I tried it out in the store and I decided that using keyboard shortcuts will always be faster than using the touchbar which the article linked from this one mentions.
- malloryerik 9y ago
  Have you had the chance to notice any real life differences between yours and touch bar models? For example, battery life, fan noise, speed?
Azeralthefallen 9y ago
I got a new MBP with touchbar for work several months ago, honestly at first i was overjoyed by the laptop. A single universal connector for everything? This is amazing. The touchbar, will be awesome, i can replace those barely used function keys, with things of value. However after several months: - The touchbar is borderline useless. When i rapidly switch between various apps, sometimes the touchbar doesn't realize that hey i am in a different app. - Numerous times i have had the touchbar freeze and become completely unresponsive. This is extremely frustrating, when i am trying to esc out of something, or i am trying to do some normal work. I also had a time where i unplugged my headphones, and itunes decided to play through speakers, and no amount of spamming mute on the touch bar would make itunes shut up. However my biggest issue is with USB-C, which i thought would be the greatest thing since sliced bread. - I have seen some TV's/projectors, where USB-C <-> HDMI just flat out does not want to work on these devices. Then i need to fumble and pray that i got lucky and packed my VGA cable. Even worse is when it does work, for whatever reason with the dongle i have seen some cases where i am locked to stupidly low resolutions like 1024x768 or lower. Yet my coworker can plug his mini DP into his older macbook and has 0 issues. - Numerous times i have wanted to take control of a big screen and plug my laptop into it. Unfortunately i didn't bring the dongle. Instead i have been forced to do a hangouts and screenshare my desktop while a coworkers laptop is connected to the big screen. - The lack of actual quality dongles, i have 2 highend 4k monitors, that do not support USB-C, they support display port. Unfortunately i have tried almost a dozen of these cables, and i cannot get a solid dongle that gives me proper 4k at 60hz like my coworkers older macbook laptops can do.
- mmcconnell1618 9y ago
  I bought the Apple dongle and couldn't get 4K @60hz but this cheap one from Amazon works perfectly with my Dell 4K monitor https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRU0O0T/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRU0O0T/ref=oh_aui_deta...
- mthoms 9y ago
  This has worked well for me - https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-DisplayPort-1-8m-Chromebook-Thunderbolt/dp/B01EXKDRAC https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-DisplayPort-1-8m-Chromebook-...
gumby 9y ago
It will be hard to put the touch bar on a remote keyboard because it looks like a display. Perhaps BT 5 will be fast enoug, but AFAIK that will require new macs as well as new keyboards. The audience for touch bar is non-touch typists and those who use the mouse so are happy to move their hand and gaze away from the active zone. A group probably disjoint with HN readers.
brandonmenc 9y ago
"Touch Bar is useless!" - well, so are function keys for just about everyone. It's not going anywhere. In five years, every laptop will replace their function keys with something similar. imo, it's a nice incremental improvement, and it's actually slightly more functional than the F-keys.
malloryerik 9y ago
Do the other specs of the touch bar MBP 13" model make it worth the extra cost vs the no touch bar 13", _despite_ the touch bar itself? - Faster CPU 3.1GHz boost to 3.5 vs 2.3GHz boost to 3.6, but more power-hungry - Four Thunderbolt 3 / USB-C ports vs two on no touch model - Faster GPU -- Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 vs 640 -- does this matter? - Two fans vs one (but more power consumption) - 49.2-watt-hour battery (MBP) vs 54.5-watt-hour (no touch MBP is better here) - Shorter battery life for touch bar model, but by how much? Which one is a better value? Does anyone have experience of the real difference in battery life? Is the no touch model too weak? Two days ago I ordered and paid the touch bar model with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD, but cancelled the next day (first time doing that). For general development and some video/music editing, is the no touch model sufficient?
- rubatuga 9y ago
  Don’t get the touch model, cpu speeds are essentially equivalent, and you’ll get an extra hour of battery life.
kylehotchkiss 9y ago
I got a new macbook pro without touch bar. On it's own, it's a great computer. Wish Apple would drop in an LTE chip now. Don't need toys, need tools to work smarter.
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bouke 9y ago
My biggest beef with the new MBP TouchBar is how horribly slow Keychain has become. * When a login form is shown in Safari, it takes 2-3 seconds before the username and password are prefilled. Safari just hangs (beach ball) in the meantime. * Searching in Keychain Access is horribly slow. After a search term has been entered, it takes 4-5 seconds before the search results are shown. Keychain Access just hangs (beach ball) in the meantime. And it is made worse as searching also starts during typing, so you can type... but the text won't show up. And Keychain Access simply hangs. And after the 4-5 hang is over, it starts hanging again as you've entered additional search terms. * In Keychain Access when you've finally gotten to the entry you wanted, copying the password to clipboard is another 2-3 seconds wait. With appropriate hang (beach ball). This has been going for many users on this machine. Apple doesn't confirm that this issue exists, keeps suggesting to reinstall their machines and offers replacements to others -- which obviously doesn't help. Users testing macOS High Sierra beta's report small improvements, but still nothing significant. [speculation] I suspect the Secure Enclave is to blame here, some design issue with the hardware. High Sierra appears to do heavy caching of the Keychain, to work around this hardware issue. [/speculation] [edit] Issue #2 with this machine is that Spotlight randomly stops working. You can open Spotlight (CMD+Space), but you can't type your query -- it doesn't respond to key pressed. You have to `killall Spotlight` from the Terminal to fix this. Issue #3 with this machine is that the keys are too close to the screen when closed. You can see an "imprint" of the keyboard when opening. This will probably cause damage to the screen's coating in the long rung and thus reduce the machine's lifetime (damaged screen). Issue #4 is flaky Bluetooth radio. Multiple times throughout the day my Apple Magic Mouse, Apple Wireless Keyboard and/or Sony headset will disconnect. Issue #5 is slow wake from sleep. I've had multiple wakes from sleep taking over 20 seconds -- leaving the screen black while resuming. The repair center blames high memory usage (paging). However my previous 2013 MBP (also 16 GB) didn't have the same issue, and my use hasn't changed. Issue #6 is that the machine sometimes crashes when plugging in the Apple USB-C HDMI Multiport adapter. That's a great start of a presentation having a room full of people.
- bouke 9y ago
  Issue #7 is that Play/Pause get "hijacked" by Safari tabs if it starts playing audio (music / video / notification). For example if I have music playing in iTunes and then visit a YouTube page. Normally I'd press Play/Pause and iTunes paused. However now Safari hijacks the media keys and pressing Play/Pause pauses the video. Now I have to switch to iTunes and CLICK the play/pause button, and then switch back to the Youtube video. Even worse: this happens with websites playing audio notifications (e.g. WhatsApp Web). When this happens, Play/Pause stay mapped to that website's notification sound and I have to close the tab before the key is released back to iTunes.
drcongo 9y ago
I hate my MacBook Pro with TouchBar more than I've ever hated any computer I've owned.
- brookside 9y ago
  Why?
themagician 9y ago
The touch bar is something you get used to the same way you get used to using a trackpad. I avoided the trackpad for YEARS opting for a wireless mouse and/or the eraser nub on the old ThinkPads. For me the touch bar isn't vital, but I really wouldn't want to go back to not having it. In fact, I wish the external keyboard also had a touch bar. It's fantastic for any scenario where their are no controls on the screen, such as full screen video. It also makes a fantastics scrubber for emojis, photos, etc. And the ability to change the function keys based on context, while not something you use every day in every application, actually makes a lot of sense and it's pretty bewildering that this didn't change a long time ago. It's always annoying when function keys no longer do what their icon suggests because they have been replaced, moved, or the OS has changed that functionality. And for things like brush size or changing the tool your using in a video editor, it actually is a lot more convenient. There are these things you start to realize that you always wanted physical keys for, and now you have them. The only problem that I have with the new MPB is the way the keyboard sounds. The clicks on each key are different depending on where they are and how hot the chassis is. If you haven't noticed this, I'm sorry you're reading this because once you notice it you won't be able to not. Certain keys click more than others. They do all sort of break in a bit and start to sound the same, and since the travel is so short it doesn't actually impact typing at all, but it does sound and feel a bit weird when the "A" key acts slightly differently from the "F" key. They keys along the exterior tend to be more "clicky" than the keys on the interior. It's just weird.

118 points by tolien 9y ago

Apple doesn't care about pro users or developers. The people who designed the touch bar probably do nothing with their computers but swipe left or right on Grindr all day long, so they thought the touch bar would be great for that.

yellow_postit 9y ago

Apple got ahead of itself with the touchbar and it's no surprise they have not pushed on it much since release. I sincerely hope they are mature enough to recognize it was not the right tech and pull it from future laptops.

nkkollaw 9y ago
Really? Why is it not the right tech? I got the version without, but is it universally bad..?
- colechristensen 9y ago
  It feels like a cheesy gimmick, I miss being able to change brightness/volume without looking at the keyboard, and I preferred my escape key to be a key. It's been a few months and I have yet to use it for anything keys didn't already do.
  - nkkollaw 9y ago
    Got it.
Steko 9y ago
> pull it from future laptops. I expect the opposite. They will continue to iterate and fix the issues with the touchbar which many users already like and appreciate. The obvious change to make is the addition of haptic feedback.
- tomxor 9y ago
  >The obvious change to make is the addition of haptic feedback. Yeah they are called physical keys, no need to make a NASA pen... didn't Apple buy out some company making keyboards out of tiny e-ink dipslays, that would actually make sense. Making keys out of a touchscreen when the only reason to look at it is because there are no physical keys on the other hand is ridiculous.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    I agree with your point about physical keys, just a quick aside about: > no need to make a NASA pen The "NASA pen" urban legend (often used to comment on the contrast between American over-spending on innovation and Russian common-sense) is actually a myth. Both NASA and the Soviets used pencil-based technology originally -- NASA used ordinary sharpening-based pencils (later moving to mechanical pencils), while Soviets used more crayon-like "grease pencils". There were flaws with both technologies, and a private American company (Fisher) created a pen they claimed could work in space which was later adopted by both NASA and the Soviets. NASA only paid $4.00 per pen, nowhere near the "millions of dollars" often cited as the cost of development. http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
    - tomxor 9y ago
      Thanks I did not know that, however... In spite of it's truth it is an extremely useful metaphor when trying to make a point about unnecessarily complex over-engineering to no actual benefit to the user. Do you have any alternatives which are not myths? (Sincere question)
      - Judgmentality 9y ago
        The vertical doors on Tesla SUVs. Doors are actually one of the most complicated parts of a car to manufacture and make reliable, and those doors are widely credited with why the shipments were late. In addition to people complaining about their reliability and their absurdly high cost, they provide no real benefit. Supposedly you can park in tighter spaces and get out, however the front doors still open like regular car doors. So assuming the driver also wants to get out, it's pretty fucking useless.
abritinthebay 9y ago
I hope not: it’s the single most used new tech on my mbp. It’s useful, better than the useless row of keys that was there before (ok, if you’re using old IDEs they may still be useful), and adds functionality
- sarthakjain 9y ago
  Could you describe how you find it useful?
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    Sure, I use it every day to do small things that, yes many I could have set custom bindings for, now have dedicated space. Also touch screen for volume, brightness, and video scrubbing === better than keys.
pier25 9y ago
I agree with you. Not being able to get a version without the TB was one of the reasons for buying a 2015 model instead.
jest3r1 9y ago
The touch bar will evolve into a touch screen keyboard.
- userbinator 9y ago
  ...and if/when it does, Apple and its fans will praise it as being amazing innovation, forgetting the fact that Acer tried the same thing many years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_Iconia_6120 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_Iconia_6120 As someone who can actually type without looking at the keys, I would never buy a laptop without a real physical keyboard.
- camus 9y ago
  > The touch bar will evolve into a touch screen keyboard. Have you ever tried to type on a touch keyboard without looking at it?
- yborg 9y ago
  God, I hope not.
- notadoc 9y ago
  You ever typed on an iPad or Fire keyboard? Good luck!
  - nilved 9y ago
    You ever typed on an iPhone keyboard? BlackBerry's physical keyboard was far better. It didn't matter.
    - notadoc 9y ago
      Ugh, you are right and that makes me sad. But it works for iPhone thanks to a combination of changes in habit and autocorrect and plenty of typos, whereas no matter how much I have tried I have never made typing work on a tablet.
- bitwize 9y ago
  When I saw the Idiot Bar I thought immediately of the "MacBook Wheel" video from The Onion.
dennyabraham 9y ago
Adding haptics and the ability to make it static (even outside of login sessions) would make it much more friendly to touch-typists. It could also stand to adhere keyboard brightness configuration
foobarian 9y ago
This is what happens without an uncompromising design lead at the helm. One person is probably pushing this feature because it's their baby, and nobody else has enough power to shut it down (though they probably grumble about it).

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago

A big problem with it is that, as a new interface only supported on the high-end new MacBook Pro, you still have to design your apps to work perfectly without it, lest you exclude users of the old MacBook Pro, users of the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro, MacBook users, MacBook Air users, Mac mini users, iMac users, and iMac Pro users.

coralreef 9y ago
That's considered a "big" problem for Mac app developers?
- jsemrau 9y ago
  Yes, 2 out of us 3 complained about it during lunch.
- ghostly_s 9y ago
  It's a big problem for Apple, unless they somehow make touchbar support mandatory in XCode. No-one's going to bother developing the elaborate custom applications for it like Apple did in iMovie if a minority of their customer base will ever see them, and that makes the adoption problem even bigger.
vlunkr 9y ago
Don't forget people with the touch bar who might also use an external keyboard!
- Corrado 9y ago
  Exactly! It's been months since the new Touch Bar MBP was released and there are still no keyboards that offer the Touch Bar experience. Does Apple not realize that quite a few people use external keyboards? I'm thinking that Apple is not going to move forward with the Touch Bar concept or is going to change it so much that we won't really recognize it as the same thing.
  - 9y ago

RyanShook 9y ago

Reminds me of 3D Touch. It could become useful but right now it's a solution to a problem I don't have and most developers can't find a useful way to implement it.

pducks32 9y ago
Can’t speak of touchbar but I don’t understand the hate for 3D Touch. I love it and use it a lot. Sure discoverability sucks but I think it’s worth while.
- nomel 9y ago
  I think discoverability is the main problem. Nobody knows what it can do. I use the quick cursor placement (push and slide when editing text) and fast app switching (push left edge and swipe to middle to switch to previous app) many many times per day. A few games, like Pixel Gun 3d, use it fantastically, since it's actually multi finger 3d touch. It's a first person shooter with standard move with left finger and look with right, with the addition of jump by pushing left and shoot by pushing right.
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  I have to agree that 3D Touch is a highly desirable feature for me. For example, it allows me to respond to text messages without switching apps. I also use it to preview links before deciding if I want to follow them when web browsing. I expect that over time it will grow in usefulness beyond the current applications. Apple iterates the hell out of features. Remember that there was no copy / paste on the original iPhone.
SomeHacker44 9y ago
First thing I do is turn off 3D touch. Too complicated and too much mental load to distinguish a normal touch, a force touch, and a long touch.

rcthompson 9y ago

It's interesting that a lot of the OP's reason for not needing the Touch Bar and/or TouchID is that the Apple Watch replaces it, because if I recall, the Touch Bar effectively is a built-in Apple Watch with a funny-shaped screen (i.e. it's a tiny iOS device). So it's not surprising that the watch provides much of the same functionality.

breatheoften 9y ago

Two features of touchbar that I use consistently are enough for me to pretty much like after initially not seeing the point at all -- 1. when taking a screenshot touchbar shows an option to toggle between the various destinations (desktop, documents, clipboard) -- nice because these keyboard shortcuts are really hard to type and often I don't make up my mind about where I want the picture to go until I'm in the middle of selecting the region 2. Scrubbing between safari tabs is a pretty nice feature -- I find myself using it a lot.

sarthakjain 9y ago
2 generic use cases that emerge from the points you mentioned 1) An equivalent interface to the Android snackbar which is a contextual "more options" menu to the most recent interaction 2) Global hirerachy and navigation
marban 9y ago
As for tabs 2) I only see a mish-mash of pixels — How does this work for you?

_ix 9y ago

Why can't I swipe backward on this website? Does the author dislike both the TouchBar and the MultiTouch Trackpads? ;)

fossuser 9y ago

I think Apple should kill the MacBook Air (not sure why it wasn't killed a long time ago when the new 12 inch MacBook launched). Then all MacBook Pros should have the touch bar if they're going to keep it (no 13 inch two port version without one). It's strange to me that the Airs and the MacBook Pro without touch bar exist.

quicklyfrozen 9y ago
Why can't we have a choice instead, for both 13" and 15" models? IMO, the cheaper models still exist so they still have some chance of selling into education.
notadoc 9y ago
On the contrary, Apple should make the "Touch Bar" a build-to-order option and let people opt out of it. There's a reason the 13" two port weaker version is so popular.
atonse 9y ago
God I hope not. We just bought a 13" non touch bar MacBook pro and it's been simply awesome. The touch bar looked like a total waste of $300 extra, so we instead put that into memory upgrades and Apple care. I'm fine with the touch bar being a premium feature, I just don't want to pay that premium.
gnicholas 9y ago
> I think Apple should kill the MacBook Air (not sure why it wasn't killed a long time ago when the new 12 inch MacBook launched). Because the MacBook is substantially slower than the MBA, has fewer ports, and a higher starting price? I'd love to replace my aging MBA, but the MacBook is too much money for not enough machine. (And I don't love the expensive new MBPs.)
rando444 9y ago
They did sadly kill off the 11" macbook air shortly after the 12" macbook launched.
- 9y ago

rectang 9y ago

What can the touch bar do that a touch screen could not?

valuearb 9y ago
- Keep the screen lighter and the perfect screen tilt adjustments Apple laptops are famous for. - Keep smudges off your bright new screen. - Keep your hands on the home row. - Keep tap areas in the OS sized to cursors, not fat fingers.

Finbarr 9y ago

Just got a new MBP with touchbar and am finding it quite annoying for these reasons: - there seems to be no way to dim it and it's way too bright in the dark. - the context specific functions appearing and disappearing make it really eye catching and distracting. There also seems to be a slight lag before it updates with the latest context. (I ended up switching it to only show some small subset of default controls). - I'm hardly using it at all, but sometimes it just stops responding. Hitting the buttons doesn't do anything. - it's too easy to accidentally tap one of the buttons. All in all I think it's a gimmick and I'd much rather have a physical escape key.

na85 9y ago
That's interesting because I expected to hate mine but am rather ambivalent towards the touch bar. I've never had the touch bar malfunction, nor do I find it distracting or too bright at night, even on a lakeside dock in cottage country. I agree, though, that occasionally I will switch the input language to French due accidentally hitting the the bar. It's too sensitive. The biggest surprise for me, though, was that I don't miss the physical F keys nor Escape, even a little bit.
- taf2 9y ago
  Do either of you use vim?
  - justanotherbody 9y ago
    I use it, and have a mb with touch bar. Using solely the laptop keyboard was fine. Transitioning between the laptop keyboard and an external was not. I ended up adding a binding for "jk" to exit editing mode. Very pleased
    - w0m 9y ago
      Is there an issue with ctrl-c that makes jk more convenient?
    - 9y ago

ramenmeal 9y ago

TouchID is the only feature I've used on the touch bar, I've had this mac for ~4 months as a full time dev. Even then, I think I can type my password in the time it recognizes my finger. The rest of the touch bar is a disaster. The last button I want to accidentally press is un-mute or the play button. I can switch it to be a function row, but still then I don't want to accidentally touch f5, f10,11,12 while developing.

robbyt 9y ago
I use a zsh plugin that changes the F1/2/3 keys to show information about my cwd, so I can have a simplified PS1. I can't remember the name of the plugin, but I'm sure you can find it if you're interested.
konceptz 9y ago
I frequently lock my computer (set the lock button on the touch bar so it's my fault, but in line with no haptic feedback) when I try to hit other buttons.
- srikz 9y ago
  I found even the lock button to be a bit unreliable. If you tap on lock and almost immediately hit any other key on the keyboard, it resumes back and you have full access!
bouke 9y ago
While I also like TouchID, I find that the implementation of software wise is half-assed though. For example; the login screen won't show the password prompt until you entered the first key. So if you wake the machine, you don't know if the machine is ready to accept your input as you can't see a blinking cursor. While this would make sense if you alway use TouchID -- no need to enter your password right. But when using in clamshell mode (lid closed), it STILL won't prompt for a password. And you just have to guess whether the machine is ready, or still busy waking from sleep.

ThomPete 9y ago

Touch bar is great for 1 control things like volume or as a lever for something. For everything else it doesn't work because it switches meaning based on the context and thus makes it close to impossible to apply muscle memory to.

bitmapbrother 9y ago

The touchbar is a problem looking for a solution. For the premium they charge for it I fail to see how it returns its value. Perhaps this was innovation for the sake of innovation, but I don't see the touchbar having a prolonged lifespan. Sooner or later Apple is going to come to the realization that they need a touchscreen on the MacBook. On a related note, I was trying out the MacBooks at an Apple store and couldn't believe how bad the keyboards have become. The key travel was nearly non existent. Perhaps this is Apple's way of slowly conditioning their users to a keyboard with no physical keys, but rather touch keys powered by force touch. It certainly seems like the next evolution as they keep reducing the key travel lower and lower. The sensation of typing on the keyboard, IMO, was so bad that I would never purchase or recommend one. I would, however, still recommend the previous generation with a proper keyboard.

johansch 9y ago
After a couple of months I have actually come to like the typing experience of the new keyboard - when it works. The keys need constant cleaning. Simple dust/dirt particles that don't really affect the old keyboards are the nemesis of this keyboard. I have to literally blow into keys to get rid of dust/dirt particles every single day. Just recently the smaller up/down keys have simply stopped registering presses (unless you press they keys quite firmly). Many other people have this issue too; here is one thread discussing it: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7769526 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7769526 It's so bizarre to have to remap some unused modifier keys to up/down because of a likely design flaw on a flagship product like this.
jack_kc 9y ago
Did you mean a solution looking for a problem? I can't think of a single problem that is solved by the touchbar.
camus 9y ago
> The touchbar is a problem looking for a solution. For the premium they charge for it I fail to see how it returns its value. Perhaps this was innovation for the sake of innovation, but I don't see the touchbar having a prolonged lifespan. Sooner or later Apple is going to come to the realization that they need a touchscreen on the MacBook. IMHO the Surface Book from Microsoft is a great idea with a beautiful design but poorly executed [1] I would have expected Apple to come up with this kind of product and phase out both the Macbook Air and the ipad. The Macbook + touchbar seems so half baked I'm not sure why Apple thought it was a good idea. 1: http://www.thespectrum.com/story/life/features/mesquite/2017/08/25/consumer-reports-drops-microsoft-surface/603547001/ http://www.thespectrum.com/story/life/features/mesquite/2017...

idlewords 9y ago

Unlike the author, I have a long passphrase on 1password and find the ability to use the fingerprint sensor a godsend. I've found that the Touch Bar will freeze up sometimes and make it impossible to regulate volume (though muting still works). But this seems to be part of the general neglect of OS X rather than a drawback of the hardware.

SomeHacker44 9y ago
I don't use the TouchID. The last thing I want is my authentication to be coerced by just knocking me out and using my finger. My pass phrase may also be able to be coerced but not by law abiding people and government agents.
- konceptz 9y ago
  I have the same quandary while traveling abroad. Giving your fingerprints while entering a country means you're giving the country your passwords.
  - idlewords 9y ago
    I turn the TouchID feature off while traveling. I think it's important to have different habits with phone and computer security when you're on the move, and I hope it becomes the accepted practice.
robbyt 9y ago
Touchbar 2 will likely "be even faster than Touchbar 1, and more responsive than ever!"

notadoc 9y ago

It's fairly obvious by now that nobody wants a Touch Bar. Pro users that I know want: - A great keyboard (yes with an actual physical Escape key) - 32 GB RAM, with 64 GB optional - Common ports including boring old USB and HDMI, and a headphone jack - Good battery life at a reasonable weight compromise I hope Apple realizes the current MacBook Pro is a flop and backtracks on the many poor decisions that went into it.

clumsysmurf 9y ago
And maybe 1mm thicker in exchange for repairability
- cyphar 9y ago
  Not only does Apple not care about repairability, they actively fight against the ability for users to repair their own devices. In my mind that's probably the biggest "innovation" that Apple has pushed forward in the industry -- making it effectively impossible for users to fix and replace parts of their own devices and appliances. For example, it is currently not possible for anyone other than Apple to replace any part of the Touch Bar. And I've not seen a disassembly of the new MacBook which didn't result in damage to the Touch Bar -- requiring it to be replaced.
  - bitwize 9y ago
    Modern cars suck for "car guys" because they're impossible to repair without specialized equipment and expertise. They're great for everyone else since they need so little repair compared to cars in the past. It's the same for computers. You shouldn't need to fix your computer. It should Just Work throughout its entire service lifetime. Especially if it's as well built as an Apple.
    - Corrado 9y ago
      I agree, however I do think it's nice to be able to upgrade your system without having to take it back to the manufacturer. I can't afford 16GB right now but in a year or two I can install more RAM and continue to use the computer. With the current Apple products even this simple type of upgrade is impossible.

bphogan 9y ago

Folks, the touchbar is 1000x more useful if you have a BetterTouchTool license. I have mine customized completely, with app-specific shortcuts. It's amazing. Without BTT, the touchbar is kinda silly. But with it? You can do some rad stuff with it. I urge you to try it out and see what you can do with it. You can even execute a shell script and put the results in there.

roberttod 9y ago

As much as I love the engineering behind the touch bar I never saw a good reason for it. I think context switching buttons is poor UX, you shouldn't need to look at the keyboard when you're using it. I miss the days I could quickly adjust the volume or brightness of my MacBook with the touch of a physical key who's position doesn't move (navigating a touchscreen for these controls is wholly unnecessary).

derefr 9y ago
The touchbar makes more sense if you don't consider it a modal part of the keyboard, but rather a touchable part of the screen. Like the bottom screen of a Nintendo DS.
- ramses0 9y ago
  Well then put it there and give me my escape and FN keys back!
- cynic_ 9y ago
  I've played some of the popular DS games on a smartphone with a minuscule second screen and I barely touched it. Most of its uses felt forced
dingo_bat 9y ago
What engineering? It's a screen with icons on it. Nothing special technically. Could be done with an Arduino if you were so inclined.
- AsyncAwait 9y ago
  I think what they meant was that the touch bar is essentially a whole separate computer with its own ARM chip, running a modified version of WatchOS, communicating with the MBP.
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    Okay so it is over-engineered. Usually that's a bad thing.

taurath 9y ago

I like the features they've expanded since release - even chrome works really nice with video controls.

andy_ppp 9y ago

I think it’s a decent machine but I’ve had a few issues. The power brick is super slippery and I dropped it onto the screen, which shattered immediately as if it was sprung/under constant tension. The “b” key is intermittent or repeats randomly. There is no dirt under the keys. The touchbar is flipping useless and I always select the volume slider accidentally rather than mute. The buttons at either end of the slider don’t mean mute or full volume they mean increment and decrement which is clearly wrong. The screen replacement cost £724 but very very luckily it was within my 90 day accidental damage insurance on my credit card!

revelation 9y ago

Wait, people lock all their passwords behind their fingerprint? Why would you turn a good idea like a password manager into the safety equivalent of a wet towel?

nomel 9y ago
Is this still true in 2017? My understanding is that the newer version is looking within your finger, rather than surface fingerprints, which could be lifted. From their presentation "scans sub epidermal skin layer".
valuearb 9y ago
Because good security that people actually use is far better than perfect security they won't?

suprgeek 9y ago

The touch bar is useless - worse than useless 1) No haptic feedback if I hit a key - did I hit it? just terrible for touch typists 2) Context switching according to an app - now you expect me to remember another whole new way to interact in addition to on-screen and keyboard short cuts - WHY? 3) Should I look at the keyboard or not - if not then why do the glowy keys on the keyboard keep distracting me? If yes then WTF is the screen for? 4)Do all Apple products have this or not? Why is there no external keyboard with TouchBar? Complete misfire on Apple's part (Reference : Currently use MBP 15 latest version for work)

xapata 9y ago
A large number of users are not touch typists and do not remember keyboard shortcuts. They look down at the keyboard when typing. Those users will love the touch bar.
- tfcata 9y ago
  Then don't call it pro.
  - adrianN 9y ago
    I've seen many professional programmers typing with two fingers while looking at the keyboard.
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      I do this and even though I'm not a touch typist, there is a sense of position information about keys in my mind. However with the touch bar (I'm assuming, having never used one for longer than 2 minutes), even that sense will not help.
- dbbk 9y ago
  Is there really a large overlap between people looking down at the keyboard, and people buying a professional machine?

brians 9y ago

It's surprising to me that so few recognize the touch bar for its real purpose: trusted path I/O. Imagine a password manager interacting with the secure element using the touch bar. Or a U2F device. Or a document signing applet. Or access control for iOS device backups. Or purchasing.

Corrado 9y ago
I think this is a great idea and would go a long way to changing my opinion of the Touch Bar. Has Apple actually made strides to using it as a U2F device?
malloryerik 9y ago
Are you referring to the Touch ID rather than the Touch Bar proper?

egypturnash 9y ago

I just recently bought a new MBP. Normally I would get the fastest CPU and biggest SSD as as a custom build. But this time I did not. Because that's only available with the touch bar.

cletus 9y ago

Honestly this whole situation is so frustrating as a user. I now have a 2017 MBP and every day I try to hate it a little less but it's hard work. I miss the old keyboard. Touch Bar is gimmicky and I'd be happier without it. Only USB-C is idiotic. No more Magsafe stil kills me. The old trackpad was better. For years I just wanted a better Macbook Air (ie upgraded display and specs). The 13" MBA was about perfect IMHO. Reasonably cheap and a great form factor. Yet even Apple succumbed to the fatal disease of "adding value" by changing a winning formula. Force Touch lack discovery and is terrible (this is particularly the case for the phones). Sadly, the alternative (non-Apple laptops) is just so much worse. I have a Dell XPS 15 and it's fine I guess but it's STILL much worse than MBP/OSX. Why does everything suck?

konceptz 9y ago
I actually enjoy the similarly priced dell laptops with USB-c and the dell dock. I also do hate the touch bar especially when it crashes.
pentae 9y ago
Agree wholreheartedly. I am still savage that I cannot buy the 15" without paying an extra $300 premium for a touch bar that serves to do nothing but constantly annoy me.
- qrbLPHiKpiux 9y ago
  The keyboard annoys me the most.
coldtea 9y ago
For a counter opinion, I could not care less about Magsafe (I thought I would, but I don't miss it). I really do appreciate that I can now hook the MBP into power from any side and port. I also like the USB-C: bought a few $80 total cables for everything (USB-C HDMI, USB-C to hard disk, USB-C to printer etc) and I no longer need any dongles either (just the respective USB-C to X cable, as I would have used a USB-A to X cable before). $80 is not much when one is talking of a $2000 / $3000 laptop. And increasingly new peripherals will come with direct USB-C support anyway. The display and brightness and colors is also killer. And I appreciate the Touch ID very much (1Password, lock screen, payments). That said: new trackpad is a problem for me, because I tend to touch it as I type (since it's bigger). And the touch strip I don't care about. I would prefer if it was individual strip of actual buttons (physical) that would light up with images and be customizable (like the Optimus Prime keyboard).

firedev 9y ago

I will never buy a notebook with touch bar and regretting getting this one. As a vim user I would vote for Esc any day. Same issue on the iPad keyboard cover.

rhinoceraptor 9y ago
It’s also annoying that the iPad keyboard cover actually has more (and IMO better) key travel than the new Macbooks. Other than the lack of escape and function keys, I wouldn’t mind too much typing on it for development.

chj 9y ago

I am desperately waiting for a No-Touch-Bar version of MBP 15. If not, I may have to settle with the 13 version. I am not ready to part with a physical ESC just yet.

coldtea 9y ago

>Much as I love the TouchID sensor, what keeps me from missing it much is 1Password. It’s marginally more work for me to type in my password to open 1Password than use my fingerprint, but not much. My Apple Watch unlocks the Mac, and so I don’t need the TouchID sensor for that, and when I use Apple Pay on the iMac, the Watch makes that quite painless, too. So having lived with the Touch Bar and Touch ID sensor for months and then migrated away from them again, I’ve found they seem to be solving problems I don’t really have. The touch strip maybe. Touch ID not at all -- you only missed it "a little" because you already have an Apple Watch to automatically unlock your Mac.

cutler 9y ago

My Macbook Pro is 4 years old and in good nick but I won't fork out for another when it dies. Not because of the Touch Bar but the general build quality. I looked at the latest Macbook Pro in the Apple Store and the screen hinge feels so fragile compared with its predecessor. Apple seem to be obsessed with thin and lightweight but that's not what everyone wants. Their marketing has never been aimed at what pro users really want. Why make a laptop which can last 6 years or more instead of a flimsy, lightweight version at the same price which is guaranteed to break in half the time?

valuearb 9y ago
Apple makes the best laptop hinges in the industry. It goes where you want and stays where you want. If you think the new one is actually fragile (it isn't) get one with AppleCare, and you'll get fresh new laptops every time one breaks.
- malloryerik 9y ago
  I've heard that you'll actually get fresh refurbished laptops, no?
  - aklemm 9y ago
    That, I suspect, was true when I replaced my iPhone under AppleCare and the replacement has been really wonky. Various flimsiness with the body of the phone, GPS is spotty and sometimes completely fails. Disappointing.
- cutler 9y ago
  Better still, get at ThinkPad with a hinge that doesn't break in the first place.

kevinflo 9y ago

I've found myself so annoyed with the touch bar I used this great disabler https://github.com/LumingYin/TouchBarDisabler https://github.com/LumingYin/TouchBarDisabler Conveniently, it maps key combos like ctrl+1 to make the screen dimmer it ctrl+2 to make the screen brighter. Definitely would prefer real keys though if they made a 15 inch with them.

gamad 9y ago

I can't imagine working without an ESC key. I think many of the complaints could have been alleviated if they left this one key on the machine.

ljoshua 9y ago

Tangential, but I recently discovered how to find refurbished (read: early 2015, pre-Touch Bar/USB-C models) for sale on Apple's store site, even when not listed in the refurb section. Found it when trying to avoid buying a new one myself. I wrote up a quick explanation here: http://www.joshualyman.com/2017/08/find-hidden-apple-refurbs/ http://www.joshualyman.com/2017/08/find-hidden-apple-refurbs...

craigc 9y ago

I am glad to read articles like this since I specifically opted to get the non-touchbar MacBook Pro when the new models came out. The only annoying thing about the non-touchbar model is that the specs are not quite as good. I tried it out in the store and I decided that using keyboard shortcuts will always be faster than using the touchbar which the article linked from this one mentions.

malloryerik 9y ago
Have you had the chance to notice any real life differences between yours and touch bar models? For example, battery life, fan noise, speed?

Azeralthefallen 9y ago

I got a new MBP with touchbar for work several months ago, honestly at first i was overjoyed by the laptop. A single universal connector for everything? This is amazing. The touchbar, will be awesome, i can replace those barely used function keys, with things of value. However after several months: - The touchbar is borderline useless. When i rapidly switch between various apps, sometimes the touchbar doesn't realize that hey i am in a different app. - Numerous times i have had the touchbar freeze and become completely unresponsive. This is extremely frustrating, when i am trying to esc out of something, or i am trying to do some normal work. I also had a time where i unplugged my headphones, and itunes decided to play through speakers, and no amount of spamming mute on the touch bar would make itunes shut up. However my biggest issue is with USB-C, which i thought would be the greatest thing since sliced bread. - I have seen some TV's/projectors, where USB-C <-> HDMI just flat out does not want to work on these devices. Then i need to fumble and pray that i got lucky and packed my VGA cable. Even worse is when it does work, for whatever reason with the dongle i have seen some cases where i am locked to stupidly low resolutions like 1024x768 or lower. Yet my coworker can plug his mini DP into his older macbook and has 0 issues. - Numerous times i have wanted to take control of a big screen and plug my laptop into it. Unfortunately i didn't bring the dongle. Instead i have been forced to do a hangouts and screenshare my desktop while a coworkers laptop is connected to the big screen. - The lack of actual quality dongles, i have 2 highend 4k monitors, that do not support USB-C, they support display port. Unfortunately i have tried almost a dozen of these cables, and i cannot get a solid dongle that gives me proper 4k at 60hz like my coworkers older macbook laptops can do.

mmcconnell1618 9y ago
I bought the Apple dongle and couldn't get 4K @60hz but this cheap one from Amazon works perfectly with my Dell 4K monitor https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRU0O0T/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRU0O0T/ref=oh_aui_deta...
mthoms 9y ago
This has worked well for me - https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-DisplayPort-1-8m-Chromebook-Thunderbolt/dp/B01EXKDRAC https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-DisplayPort-1-8m-Chromebook-...

gumby 9y ago

It will be hard to put the touch bar on a remote keyboard because it looks like a display. Perhaps BT 5 will be fast enoug, but AFAIK that will require new macs as well as new keyboards. The audience for touch bar is non-touch typists and those who use the mouse so are happy to move their hand and gaze away from the active zone. A group probably disjoint with HN readers.

brandonmenc 9y ago

"Touch Bar is useless!" - well, so are function keys for just about everyone. It's not going anywhere. In five years, every laptop will replace their function keys with something similar. imo, it's a nice incremental improvement, and it's actually slightly more functional than the F-keys.

malloryerik 9y ago

Do the other specs of the touch bar MBP 13" model make it worth the extra cost vs the no touch bar 13", _despite_ the touch bar itself? - Faster CPU 3.1GHz boost to 3.5 vs 2.3GHz boost to 3.6, but more power-hungry - Four Thunderbolt 3 / USB-C ports vs two on no touch model - Faster GPU -- Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 vs 640 -- does this matter? - Two fans vs one (but more power consumption) - 49.2-watt-hour battery (MBP) vs 54.5-watt-hour (no touch MBP is better here) - Shorter battery life for touch bar model, but by how much? Which one is a better value? Does anyone have experience of the real difference in battery life? Is the no touch model too weak? Two days ago I ordered and paid the touch bar model with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD, but cancelled the next day (first time doing that). For general development and some video/music editing, is the no touch model sufficient?

rubatuga 9y ago
Don’t get the touch model, cpu speeds are essentially equivalent, and you’ll get an extra hour of battery life.

kylehotchkiss 9y ago

I got a new macbook pro without touch bar. On it's own, it's a great computer. Wish Apple would drop in an LTE chip now. Don't need toys, need tools to work smarter.

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bouke 9y ago

My biggest beef with the new MBP TouchBar is how horribly slow Keychain has become. * When a login form is shown in Safari, it takes 2-3 seconds before the username and password are prefilled. Safari just hangs (beach ball) in the meantime. * Searching in Keychain Access is horribly slow. After a search term has been entered, it takes 4-5 seconds before the search results are shown. Keychain Access just hangs (beach ball) in the meantime. And it is made worse as searching also starts during typing, so you can type... but the text won't show up. And Keychain Access simply hangs. And after the 4-5 hang is over, it starts hanging again as you've entered additional search terms. * In Keychain Access when you've finally gotten to the entry you wanted, copying the password to clipboard is another 2-3 seconds wait. With appropriate hang (beach ball). This has been going for many users on this machine. Apple doesn't confirm that this issue exists, keeps suggesting to reinstall their machines and offers replacements to others -- which obviously doesn't help. Users testing macOS High Sierra beta's report small improvements, but still nothing significant. [speculation] I suspect the Secure Enclave is to blame here, some design issue with the hardware. High Sierra appears to do heavy caching of the Keychain, to work around this hardware issue. [/speculation] [edit] Issue #2 with this machine is that Spotlight randomly stops working. You can open Spotlight (CMD+Space), but you can't type your query -- it doesn't respond to key pressed. You have to `killall Spotlight` from the Terminal to fix this. Issue #3 with this machine is that the keys are too close to the screen when closed. You can see an "imprint" of the keyboard when opening. This will probably cause damage to the screen's coating in the long rung and thus reduce the machine's lifetime (damaged screen). Issue #4 is flaky Bluetooth radio. Multiple times throughout the day my Apple Magic Mouse, Apple Wireless Keyboard and/or Sony headset will disconnect. Issue #5 is slow wake from sleep. I've had multiple wakes from sleep taking over 20 seconds -- leaving the screen black while resuming. The repair center blames high memory usage (paging). However my previous 2013 MBP (also 16 GB) didn't have the same issue, and my use hasn't changed. Issue #6 is that the machine sometimes crashes when plugging in the Apple USB-C HDMI Multiport adapter. That's a great start of a presentation having a room full of people.

bouke 9y ago
Issue #7 is that Play/Pause get "hijacked" by Safari tabs if it starts playing audio (music / video / notification). For example if I have music playing in iTunes and then visit a YouTube page. Normally I'd press Play/Pause and iTunes paused. However now Safari hijacks the media keys and pressing Play/Pause pauses the video. Now I have to switch to iTunes and CLICK the play/pause button, and then switch back to the Youtube video. Even worse: this happens with websites playing audio notifications (e.g. WhatsApp Web). When this happens, Play/Pause stay mapped to that website's notification sound and I have to close the tab before the key is released back to iTunes.

drcongo 9y ago

I hate my MacBook Pro with TouchBar more than I've ever hated any computer I've owned.

brookside 9y ago
Why?

themagician 9y ago

The touch bar is something you get used to the same way you get used to using a trackpad. I avoided the trackpad for YEARS opting for a wireless mouse and/or the eraser nub on the old ThinkPads. For me the touch bar isn't vital, but I really wouldn't want to go back to not having it. In fact, I wish the external keyboard also had a touch bar. It's fantastic for any scenario where their are no controls on the screen, such as full screen video. It also makes a fantastics scrubber for emojis, photos, etc. And the ability to change the function keys based on context, while not something you use every day in every application, actually makes a lot of sense and it's pretty bewildering that this didn't change a long time ago. It's always annoying when function keys no longer do what their icon suggests because they have been replaced, moved, or the OS has changed that functionality. And for things like brush size or changing the tool your using in a video editor, it actually is a lot more convenient. There are these things you start to realize that you always wanted physical keys for, and now you have them. The only problem that I have with the new MPB is the way the keyboard sounds. The clicks on each key are different depending on where they are and how hot the chassis is. If you haven't noticed this, I'm sorry you're reading this because once you notice it you won't be able to not. Certain keys click more than others. They do all sort of break in a bit and start to sound the same, and since the travel is so short it doesn't actually impact typing at all, but it does sound and feel a bit weird when the "A" key acts slightly differently from the "F" key. They keys along the exterior tend to be more "clicky" than the keys on the interior. It's just weird.