11 ms·

Honda system confused by Alonso taking Pouhon flat

191 points by DC-3 9y ago

Bromskloss 9y ago
> Honda's deployment algorithm is calculated through major throttle input, with it basing its calculations of which corner it is at by major throttle inputs. What does "major throttle" mean?
- DC-3 9y ago
  Presumably large changes in throttle input (such as lifting off considerably as the mapping expected Alonso to do through the Pouhon corner) - as opposed to small variations in input which the driver would use to keep the car stable and under traction.
  - Bromskloss 9y ago
    Oh, that makes sense. I didn't think of that interpretation.
  - avh02 9y ago
    Any ideas if there's some regulation stopping more accurate methods of figuring out where they are on the track than through such a strange system? It would not be my go-to method of navigating a track.
    - njharman 9y ago
      What would be better? GPS is inaccurate and probably has issues with the speed they are going, they'd have to some estimate of actual position based on average velocity. I think they want to know the instant they are out of turn. Sensor in the vehicle is way more responsive and reliable than anything remote (EM emission based).
      - avh02 9y ago
        I get that, but even mid-2000s consumer cars have position sensors on the steering wheel and very accurate rotation sensors on each individual wheel (mainly for stability control), I'm sure some combination of this would allow them to build a fairly accurate dead reckoning system... Definitely better than stomp based navigation I'd hope
      - dlp211 9y ago
        Use an RFID system similar to how EZPass works. Or they can use a lGPS system that supplements GPS data for increased accuracy and decreased latency. Or they can factor in odometer data into the algorithm. Those are just three ideas off the top of my head. There are certainly technical challenges with all of this stuff, but they are driving some of the most technically sophisticated machines on the planet.
      - Bromskloss 9y ago
        I was thinking that accelerometers would make sense for counting curves. Then again, maybe they wanted to detect the transition from corner entry to corner exit, and apply the funky extra motors precisely there.
      - disordinary 9y ago
        They probably have hundreds of sensors, the FIA certainly has a lot of information that they use when assessing incidents, but this was enough to throw the entire algorithm of multiple sensors off.
    - DC-3 9y ago
      My understanding is that GPS is outlawed for safety reasons. I don't understand why other parameters couldn't also be used though - hence why this failure is so baffling. Further Discussion can be found at /r/Formula1 [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/6w6vp5/ https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/6w6vp5/
    - logronoide 9y ago
      I think the method is accurate, but Alonso did not repeat the previous pattern. Sounds strange, because everything is tested beforehand. Alonso had to do something completely different in that turn because he found a new way to reach the limits of the track with the car. How? That's the strange thing.
      - DC-3 9y ago
        If your method does not account for racing drivers pushing the limits then it is not accurate.
        logronoide 9y ago
        Ok, you are right. In an environment where everything is measured and controlled like F1 a driver still can cross the limits. That's what is really weird about Alonso.
      - anoother 9y ago
        It boils down to what is I think it's one of McLaren's major roadblocks right now - lack of integration with the engine supplier. Alonso (or others in the team) had likely run Pouhon flat in a simulator. He, and his engineers, knew it was within the realm of possibility for the car. But, to what level of detail do McLaren's simulations model the energy system? Do they run real ECU code/parameters? Probably not.
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      Driver aids are banned in F1 to maximise the importance of driver skill. There are no anti-lock brakes or traction control. To maintain the integrity of this rule, F1 car electronics are heavily regulated. The ECU is a sealed unit made by a single supplier. It has a finite number of sensor inputs and can only use relatively simple algorithms to control the power output. Mechanics can pre-program throttle curves for a particular track, drivers can tweak the throttle mapping mid-lap using their steering wheel controls, but the ECU can't do anything that could be regarded as "intelligent".
    - m1dnigh7 9y ago
      Why can't they just put cameras in the track and determine position like that?
    - exDM69 9y ago
      They have incredibly accurate position data (GPS + radio beacons, etc) but that can't be used to control the engine map. The engine map has a finite number of allowed inputs and a bunch of restrictions they must adhere to. For example it must be monotonic so that more throttle pedal input means more torque to the wheels. The engine map can not do anything based on track position, but the drivers regularly change engine maps while on track, especially in qualifying.
- 2OEH8eoCRo 9y ago
  Wager a guess that they can tell what corner you are on because generally they stomp the throttle coming out of turns. This ended up not working as intended.
logronoide 9y ago
Even algorithms are impressed with Alonso's performance. Alonso's balls 1 - Honda algorithms 0
pmontra 9y ago
For the uninformed, Formula 1 has been running on supercharged 1600 cc V6 engines since 2014, with 100 kg of gasoline for the whole GP (300 km), 105 kg this year if I remember correctly (because of larger and heavier tires.) That wouldn't give enough power so there are energy recovery systems from the exhaust and brakes. They get close to 1000 HP when all those power system deploy all the power they can generate. The driver has still only the accelerator and the brakes pedals to control power so it's critical that the car knows when to recover energy (either when braking or when coasting) and when to go full throttle or deploy partial power, and which percentage. That's where Honda has failed.
- derefr 9y ago
  > The driver has still only the accelerator and the brakes pedals to control power Is there a reason for that? I always assumed (as someone who doesn't know much about racing) that the inside of F1 cars would resemble a jet-fighter cockpit. They're not required to be stock cars, so why not optimize on HCI efficiency as well as on everything else the sport is about?
  - Pulcinella 9y ago
    That comment was incorrect. If you look at an F1 steering wheel, there are tons of buttons, switches, and knobs for adjusting engine and energy recover settings.
    - philjohn 9y ago
      Exactly - they can change throttle map between a "start" mode (less intense application of power to ensure a smooth getaway without wheelspin) and race mode. They've also got a heap of controls over things like the Diff, DRS (where the rear wing opens up to reduce drag on straights when they're lining up an overtake), and most crucially, engine mode - which tweaks fuel injection rate.
  - pmontra 9y ago
    They do look like jet planes cockpits. This is something I googled right now with a fairly good explanation https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/motorsport/3042278/formula-one-steering-wheels-explained/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/motorsport/3042278/formula-on... Some form of controls could be denied by technical or sporting regulations. I didn't read them in the last years. They are at http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110 http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110 Regulations are interesting and not too hard to follow.
laurencei 9y ago
The reliance on "major throttle" to determine track position seems strange, especially when you consider unknown variables are possible. For example, if a marshall flags a yellow, you might pull off the throttle at an unexpected location. Same as when racing - if another car breaks (for whatever reason, including crashing) - your "inputs" are going to be very different, so this could easily trick the computer into thinking it is not in the right position?
- colordrops 9y ago
  Yeah, are inertial navigation sensors and GPS units disallowed?
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    It seems like they must be, as that'd be the obvious solution. I wonder what the motivation for that rule is, and how soon it'll change.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      Ages ago, they had GPS/INS systems and active suspension that would pick the car's tires up over known bumps in the road. They also had a few spectacular accidents possibly related to misbehaving tech of that sort and it also represented a disproportionate chance to spend money in an arms race, so F1 banned much of that. I don't see them likely going back on it.
    - hordeallergy 9y ago
      What are they using to show the track location graphics? I just assumed they must be using GPS.
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        Could be equipment that the teams don't have access to the data from.
- 9y ago
aidos 9y ago
OT Some years back I was given a tour around the McLaren workshop. The work that goes into those machines is impressive to say the least. I knew a guy on the electrical testing team and he said that they had just spent the better part of 2 weeks tracking down a single misfire from a race. Turned out two tracks on a PCB were slightly too close together.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  How on earth did they manage to locate that fault? That would be an awesome story to be told in detail.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - myrandomcomment 9y ago
    The amount of sensors they have on the cars is insane. Each race they basically set up a data center in the paddock. Then that is remote linked to the teams HQ DC over MPLS links. Here is a quick bit about it. http://en.f1i.com/magazine/73067-f1-telemetry-data-race.html http://en.f1i.com/magazine/73067-f1-telemetry-data-race.html
    - hordeallergy 9y ago
      I've tried suggesting to smaller teams on social media that they make their data public. What do they have to lose? No responses.
  - aidos 9y ago
    I have no idea actually. The kit they had was amazing though. My favourite was the machine for testing their radio link. It was a long room full of baffles and at one end they put the receiver. At the other end was a large machine that spent all day shaking the life out of the transmitter. In the electrical testing room they had a few car simulators that effectively had the whole car in (they were about 5 ft tall from memory, large boxes). The could start them up and run the entire system physically.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bitmapbrother 9y ago
I was wondering why Alonso was shouting "NO POWER NO POWER" over the team radio at the end of Q2 qualifying.
cyberferret 9y ago
Seems almost comical when you analyse it like this. But in all seriousness, this should have been a major consideration when designing the software systems for the 2017 regulation cars. The new design with wider tyres and improved downforce means that drivers can now take previously 'brass ball' Spa corners like Eau Rouge and Pouhon with the pedal to the floor, compared to the old days. That very fact should have been allowed for in the AI algorithms. You'll have to excuse me, I just woke up here on the other side of the world and watched HAM's pole setting lap last night at Spa, and man, these cars take all those tricky corners at Spa very fast! [0] (For reference, Eau Rouge is at 0:22, and Pouhon is at 1:01) [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIRYrgVhJYQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIRYrgVhJYQ
throwaway43894 9y ago
This seems like a terrible way to do odometry. Does FIA disallow teams from using the odometry information from the wheels ?
- boyce 9y ago
  Yes. The ECU is extremely limited
jordansmithnz 9y ago
Perhaps I’m way off (I haven’t had a lot of experience with machine learning), but mapping this sort of thing seems like something a neural network could learn to do extremely well. There may be hardware limitations or reasons to why this can’t be done, but in general optimising an engine’s performance looks like a problem with very measureable inputs and outputs, which would seem to lend well to a machine learning problem. From a naive perspective, if engine manufacturers aren’t already investigating machine learning to optimise performance, it seems like something worth doing.
- tsomctl 9y ago
  The most important thing about machine learning is you don't use machine learning unless you have to. The problem here is not with the ecu maps themselves, but that their hand coded program that determines where the car is on the track had a bug.
- nzjrs 9y ago
  The old machine learning for everything answer! ML people need to learn to look into a problem before spouting this sort of stuff.
  - robertlagrant 9y ago
    With enough training data I reckon I could write an AI for forums that filters out this sort of suggestion.
myrandomcomment 9y ago
Both my wife and I are F1 fans and make a point to watch the races together (which is cool!). While McLaren has no hope of winning watching them fail over and over this and last year due to Honda is heartbreaking. The quality and design of each teams car matters a ton for winning. The drives of course are a huge part of it, however I strongly believe that you put Max Verstappen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Verstappen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Verstappen) in the same Mercedes that Lewis Hamilton is driving he would be likely to win. For those that do not know there are 2 titles here - the drivers title and the team title. The team title is the "Constructors Championship" i.e., they built the car.
- spear 9y ago
  And yet, in the Drivers Championship standings, Max is well behind his teammate Daniel Ricciardo (who is of course, driving the same car).
  - din-9 9y ago
    As much as I love Ricciardo, the share of bad luck has been most unequal and it's not Max's fault he is so far behind.
  - DC-3 9y ago
    > who is of course, driving the same car This isn't really an 'of course' - while I believe you're right in this instance, teammates having unequal machinery is very common (for example, the driver who brings the money being prioritised for upgrades).
  - myrandomcomment 9y ago
    I believe if you look at the races and why this is you will find Max had more then one race where the car failed or was crashed out this year.
    - suprfnk 9y ago
      If you count today's race, his car stopped working 6 out of 12 races this year [1] -- through no (obvious) fault of his own. They were mostly engine-related failures. This is the prime reason for his bad point total. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Formula_One_season#33 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Formula_One_season#33
tofflos 9y ago
"Top paid human driver unaware of car limitations." I don't follow motorsport but it seems like the car in the article is highly calibrated for each race in order to provide optimal performance through-out every section of the track. The driver then deviated from the agreed upon, and successfully tested, driving pattern and the engineering team got the blame. I mean sure... The car could behave differently - but these are the risks when you test in production.
- euyyn 9y ago
  It's still pretty ridiculous that a racing car wouldn't race as part of its limitations.
- philjohn 9y ago
  I would imagine they tuned the map from simulator runs, McLaren are well known for having one of the best simulators in F1 for human in the loop, and computer in the loop, testing. It could be that the parameters were slightly off for downforce and grip with their low-downforce Spa and Monza package and Alonso (and the computer) couldn't take Pouhon flat.
- asendra 9y ago
  LOL. What you really mean is that his car couldn’t account for his massive balls. It’s racing ffs, if you can take it flat, you take it flat.
- icot 9y ago
  That lap in particular was a coordinated team effort where Alonso's car was "launched" by his team mate drag effect in the first part of the circuit. I would expect that the whole team was aware of the strategy and it was validated and given the go ahead before hand

191 points by DC-3 9y ago

> Honda's deployment algorithm is calculated through major throttle input, with it basing its calculations of which corner it is at by major throttle inputs. What does "major throttle" mean?

DC-3 9y ago
Presumably large changes in throttle input (such as lifting off considerably as the mapping expected Alonso to do through the Pouhon corner) - as opposed to small variations in input which the driver would use to keep the car stable and under traction.
- Bromskloss 9y ago
  Oh, that makes sense. I didn't think of that interpretation.
- avh02 9y ago
  Any ideas if there's some regulation stopping more accurate methods of figuring out where they are on the track than through such a strange system? It would not be my go-to method of navigating a track.
  - njharman 9y ago
    What would be better? GPS is inaccurate and probably has issues with the speed they are going, they'd have to some estimate of actual position based on average velocity. I think they want to know the instant they are out of turn. Sensor in the vehicle is way more responsive and reliable than anything remote (EM emission based).
    - avh02 9y ago
      I get that, but even mid-2000s consumer cars have position sensors on the steering wheel and very accurate rotation sensors on each individual wheel (mainly for stability control), I'm sure some combination of this would allow them to build a fairly accurate dead reckoning system... Definitely better than stomp based navigation I'd hope
    - dlp211 9y ago
      Use an RFID system similar to how EZPass works. Or they can use a lGPS system that supplements GPS data for increased accuracy and decreased latency. Or they can factor in odometer data into the algorithm. Those are just three ideas off the top of my head. There are certainly technical challenges with all of this stuff, but they are driving some of the most technically sophisticated machines on the planet.
    - Bromskloss 9y ago
      I was thinking that accelerometers would make sense for counting curves. Then again, maybe they wanted to detect the transition from corner entry to corner exit, and apply the funky extra motors precisely there.
    - disordinary 9y ago
      They probably have hundreds of sensors, the FIA certainly has a lot of information that they use when assessing incidents, but this was enough to throw the entire algorithm of multiple sensors off.
  - DC-3 9y ago
    My understanding is that GPS is outlawed for safety reasons. I don't understand why other parameters couldn't also be used though - hence why this failure is so baffling. Further Discussion can be found at /r/Formula1 [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/6w6vp5/ https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/6w6vp5/
  - logronoide 9y ago
    I think the method is accurate, but Alonso did not repeat the previous pattern. Sounds strange, because everything is tested beforehand. Alonso had to do something completely different in that turn because he found a new way to reach the limits of the track with the car. How? That's the strange thing.
    - DC-3 9y ago
      If your method does not account for racing drivers pushing the limits then it is not accurate.
      - logronoide 9y ago
        Ok, you are right. In an environment where everything is measured and controlled like F1 a driver still can cross the limits. That's what is really weird about Alonso.
    - anoother 9y ago
      It boils down to what is I think it's one of McLaren's major roadblocks right now - lack of integration with the engine supplier. Alonso (or others in the team) had likely run Pouhon flat in a simulator. He, and his engineers, knew it was within the realm of possibility for the car. But, to what level of detail do McLaren's simulations model the energy system? Do they run real ECU code/parameters? Probably not.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    Driver aids are banned in F1 to maximise the importance of driver skill. There are no anti-lock brakes or traction control. To maintain the integrity of this rule, F1 car electronics are heavily regulated. The ECU is a sealed unit made by a single supplier. It has a finite number of sensor inputs and can only use relatively simple algorithms to control the power output. Mechanics can pre-program throttle curves for a particular track, drivers can tweak the throttle mapping mid-lap using their steering wheel controls, but the ECU can't do anything that could be regarded as "intelligent".
  - m1dnigh7 9y ago
    Why can't they just put cameras in the track and determine position like that?
  - exDM69 9y ago
    They have incredibly accurate position data (GPS + radio beacons, etc) but that can't be used to control the engine map. The engine map has a finite number of allowed inputs and a bunch of restrictions they must adhere to. For example it must be monotonic so that more throttle pedal input means more torque to the wheels. The engine map can not do anything based on track position, but the drivers regularly change engine maps while on track, especially in qualifying.
2OEH8eoCRo 9y ago
Wager a guess that they can tell what corner you are on because generally they stomp the throttle coming out of turns. This ended up not working as intended.

logronoide 9y ago

Even algorithms are impressed with Alonso's performance. Alonso's balls 1 - Honda algorithms 0

pmontra 9y ago

For the uninformed, Formula 1 has been running on supercharged 1600 cc V6 engines since 2014, with 100 kg of gasoline for the whole GP (300 km), 105 kg this year if I remember correctly (because of larger and heavier tires.) That wouldn't give enough power so there are energy recovery systems from the exhaust and brakes. They get close to 1000 HP when all those power system deploy all the power they can generate. The driver has still only the accelerator and the brakes pedals to control power so it's critical that the car knows when to recover energy (either when braking or when coasting) and when to go full throttle or deploy partial power, and which percentage. That's where Honda has failed.

derefr 9y ago
> The driver has still only the accelerator and the brakes pedals to control power Is there a reason for that? I always assumed (as someone who doesn't know much about racing) that the inside of F1 cars would resemble a jet-fighter cockpit. They're not required to be stock cars, so why not optimize on HCI efficiency as well as on everything else the sport is about?
- Pulcinella 9y ago
  That comment was incorrect. If you look at an F1 steering wheel, there are tons of buttons, switches, and knobs for adjusting engine and energy recover settings.
  - philjohn 9y ago
    Exactly - they can change throttle map between a "start" mode (less intense application of power to ensure a smooth getaway without wheelspin) and race mode. They've also got a heap of controls over things like the Diff, DRS (where the rear wing opens up to reduce drag on straights when they're lining up an overtake), and most crucially, engine mode - which tweaks fuel injection rate.
- pmontra 9y ago
  They do look like jet planes cockpits. This is something I googled right now with a fairly good explanation https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/motorsport/3042278/formula-one-steering-wheels-explained/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/motorsport/3042278/formula-on... Some form of controls could be denied by technical or sporting regulations. I didn't read them in the last years. They are at http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110 http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110 Regulations are interesting and not too hard to follow.

laurencei 9y ago

The reliance on "major throttle" to determine track position seems strange, especially when you consider unknown variables are possible. For example, if a marshall flags a yellow, you might pull off the throttle at an unexpected location. Same as when racing - if another car breaks (for whatever reason, including crashing) - your "inputs" are going to be very different, so this could easily trick the computer into thinking it is not in the right position?

colordrops 9y ago
Yeah, are inertial navigation sensors and GPS units disallowed?
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  It seems like they must be, as that'd be the obvious solution. I wonder what the motivation for that rule is, and how soon it'll change.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    Ages ago, they had GPS/INS systems and active suspension that would pick the car's tires up over known bumps in the road. They also had a few spectacular accidents possibly related to misbehaving tech of that sort and it also represented a disproportionate chance to spend money in an arms race, so F1 banned much of that. I don't see them likely going back on it.
  - hordeallergy 9y ago
    What are they using to show the track location graphics? I just assumed they must be using GPS.
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      Could be equipment that the teams don't have access to the data from.
9y ago

aidos 9y ago

OT Some years back I was given a tour around the McLaren workshop. The work that goes into those machines is impressive to say the least. I knew a guy on the electrical testing team and he said that they had just spent the better part of 2 weeks tracking down a single misfire from a race. Turned out two tracks on a PCB were slightly too close together.

jacquesm 9y ago
How on earth did they manage to locate that fault? That would be an awesome story to be told in detail.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- myrandomcomment 9y ago
  The amount of sensors they have on the cars is insane. Each race they basically set up a data center in the paddock. Then that is remote linked to the teams HQ DC over MPLS links. Here is a quick bit about it. http://en.f1i.com/magazine/73067-f1-telemetry-data-race.html http://en.f1i.com/magazine/73067-f1-telemetry-data-race.html
  - hordeallergy 9y ago
    I've tried suggesting to smaller teams on social media that they make their data public. What do they have to lose? No responses.
- aidos 9y ago
  I have no idea actually. The kit they had was amazing though. My favourite was the machine for testing their radio link. It was a long room full of baffles and at one end they put the receiver. At the other end was a large machine that spent all day shaking the life out of the transmitter. In the electrical testing room they had a few car simulators that effectively had the whole car in (they were about 5 ft tall from memory, large boxes). The could start them up and run the entire system physically.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

bitmapbrother 9y ago

I was wondering why Alonso was shouting "NO POWER NO POWER" over the team radio at the end of Q2 qualifying.

cyberferret 9y ago

Seems almost comical when you analyse it like this. But in all seriousness, this should have been a major consideration when designing the software systems for the 2017 regulation cars. The new design with wider tyres and improved downforce means that drivers can now take previously 'brass ball' Spa corners like Eau Rouge and Pouhon with the pedal to the floor, compared to the old days. That very fact should have been allowed for in the AI algorithms. You'll have to excuse me, I just woke up here on the other side of the world and watched HAM's pole setting lap last night at Spa, and man, these cars take all those tricky corners at Spa very fast! [0] (For reference, Eau Rouge is at 0:22, and Pouhon is at 1:01) [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIRYrgVhJYQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIRYrgVhJYQ

throwaway43894 9y ago

This seems like a terrible way to do odometry. Does FIA disallow teams from using the odometry information from the wheels ?

boyce 9y ago
Yes. The ECU is extremely limited

jordansmithnz 9y ago

Perhaps I’m way off (I haven’t had a lot of experience with machine learning), but mapping this sort of thing seems like something a neural network could learn to do extremely well. There may be hardware limitations or reasons to why this can’t be done, but in general optimising an engine’s performance looks like a problem with very measureable inputs and outputs, which would seem to lend well to a machine learning problem. From a naive perspective, if engine manufacturers aren’t already investigating machine learning to optimise performance, it seems like something worth doing.

tsomctl 9y ago
The most important thing about machine learning is you don't use machine learning unless you have to. The problem here is not with the ecu maps themselves, but that their hand coded program that determines where the car is on the track had a bug.
nzjrs 9y ago
The old machine learning for everything answer! ML people need to learn to look into a problem before spouting this sort of stuff.
- robertlagrant 9y ago
  With enough training data I reckon I could write an AI for forums that filters out this sort of suggestion.

myrandomcomment 9y ago

Both my wife and I are F1 fans and make a point to watch the races together (which is cool!). While McLaren has no hope of winning watching them fail over and over this and last year due to Honda is heartbreaking. The quality and design of each teams car matters a ton for winning. The drives of course are a huge part of it, however I strongly believe that you put Max Verstappen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Verstappen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Verstappen) in the same Mercedes that Lewis Hamilton is driving he would be likely to win. For those that do not know there are 2 titles here - the drivers title and the team title. The team title is the "Constructors Championship" i.e., they built the car.

spear 9y ago
And yet, in the Drivers Championship standings, Max is well behind his teammate Daniel Ricciardo (who is of course, driving the same car).
- din-9 9y ago
  As much as I love Ricciardo, the share of bad luck has been most unequal and it's not Max's fault he is so far behind.
- DC-3 9y ago
  > who is of course, driving the same car This isn't really an 'of course' - while I believe you're right in this instance, teammates having unequal machinery is very common (for example, the driver who brings the money being prioritised for upgrades).
- myrandomcomment 9y ago
  I believe if you look at the races and why this is you will find Max had more then one race where the car failed or was crashed out this year.
  - suprfnk 9y ago
    If you count today's race, his car stopped working 6 out of 12 races this year [1] -- through no (obvious) fault of his own. They were mostly engine-related failures. This is the prime reason for his bad point total. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Formula_One_season#33 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Formula_One_season#33

tofflos 9y ago

"Top paid human driver unaware of car limitations." I don't follow motorsport but it seems like the car in the article is highly calibrated for each race in order to provide optimal performance through-out every section of the track. The driver then deviated from the agreed upon, and successfully tested, driving pattern and the engineering team got the blame. I mean sure... The car could behave differently - but these are the risks when you test in production.

euyyn 9y ago
It's still pretty ridiculous that a racing car wouldn't race as part of its limitations.
philjohn 9y ago
I would imagine they tuned the map from simulator runs, McLaren are well known for having one of the best simulators in F1 for human in the loop, and computer in the loop, testing. It could be that the parameters were slightly off for downforce and grip with their low-downforce Spa and Monza package and Alonso (and the computer) couldn't take Pouhon flat.
asendra 9y ago
LOL. What you really mean is that his car couldn’t account for his massive balls. It’s racing ffs, if you can take it flat, you take it flat.
icot 9y ago
That lap in particular was a coordinated team effort where Alonso's car was "launched" by his team mate drag effect in the first part of the circuit. I would expect that the whole team was aware of the strategy and it was validated and given the go ahead before hand