3 ms·

Tell me, in concrete, non-ambiguous terms, what will or will not generate paradox and if so how severely for performing the following feats in front of 10 sleep

Tell me, in concrete, non-ambiguous terms, what will or will not generate paradox and if so how severely for performing the following feats in front of 10 sleepers. Directly cite the rule book for each example: Using magic to levitate a feather. Using magic to levitate a plane in the sky. Using magic to levitate a person. Using magic to levitate a person wearing a jetpack. Using magic to levitate a person wearing a jetpack not turned on. Doing each of the above, but while wearing a stage magician's outfit and explicitly calling each one an "illusion". Vulgar, coincidental, perceiver w/ consensus, perceiver w/o consensus - blah, it is so needlessly complicated and has too many self-contradictory answers. You're left spinning your wheels trying to run the game according to the rules white wolf created, ignoring the rules entirely and playing purely narratively, or finding alternative rules that are actually decent.

ticviking 9y ago
I'm not near a rulebook, but for the CoD version of the rules, all of those will generate paradox, though you get a bonus to managing it if you have the illusion roll. You're criticizing a stylistic choice to have the rules here be "whatever the GM thinks is reasonable" which is a valid, if fuzzy and imprecise rules choice.
e12e 9y ago
Even in Tsr's ad2nd ed - the book starts by saying all rules are optional and up to the dm and players discretion. Mage can be played like a straitjacket rules heavy game - but it really lends itself more to storytelling and meta-philosophical gaming IMNHO. This goes for all the storyteller settings; they're bad "world simulators" but great "story facilitators". If you want the former, you'll be disappointed.
e12e 9y ago
As for your concrete question, I feel your missing (but touching on) the most central aspect of magic in Mage; the paradigm. The jetpack can straddle the gap between magic and shift in paradigm just as, in the world of Mage, airplanes did when they first allowed humans to take to the skies en masse - as opposed to being reserved for a medival arch mage wearing an "icarus outfit", or riding a broomstick... As with all rpg rules if the gm and/or group haven't internalised the rules - make it up as you go along! Create house rules, and make tweaks if the game leans too heavily in any given direction. Ed: which is why: > Tell me, in concrete, non-ambiguous terms, Doesn't make sense; I can't know what your game world is like, and what feel your campaign has. If you do want a more regular rule system that might work in a similar setting I advice having a look at Ars Magica - which appears to have been a major source of inspiration for Mage.
- j9461701 9y ago
  >Doesn't make sense; I can't know what your game world is like, and what feel your campaign has. I'm not asking you for fluff, I'm asking you to tell me - under the game's own rule system - what the result should be to very common situations in Ascension. These are basic mechanics here, stuff that comes up literally every time I cast a spell and which the book goes into laborious detail to describe. This is not a subjective or frivolous question, if I want to play the game as written I need to know the answers. Anyway, my point was the game is mechanically an utter mess and I think these replies pretty much proven it. Not a single one of you can answer my question, and you all tacitly admit the ST needs to invent his own magic system and explain that to the players rather than actually attempt to use Ascension's real rules. >If you do want a more regular rule system that might work in a similar setting I advice having a look at Ars Magica - which appears to have been a major source of inspiration for Mage. Or just use the Mage the Awakening magic system, because White Wolf themselves recognized Ascension's system was garbage and prioritized fixing it in the nWoD. They even wrote a supplement whose sole purpose was to facilitate players backporting Awakening's magic to the setting of Ascension, called "Mage Translation Guide" - letting you have Awakening's gameplay with Ascension's setting.
  - e12e 9y ago
    Why would you want to play any role-playing game "as written"? Make it your own.
Endy 9y ago
Concrete, non-ambiguous terms: Anything your Storyteller says will generate Paradox does, anything that person says will not generate Paradox does not.

ticviking 9y ago

I'm not near a rulebook, but for the CoD version of the rules, all of those will generate paradox, though you get a bonus to managing it if you have the illusion roll. You're criticizing a stylistic choice to have the rules here be "whatever the GM thinks is reasonable" which is a valid, if fuzzy and imprecise rules choice.

e12e 9y ago

Even in Tsr's ad2nd ed - the book starts by saying all rules are optional and up to the dm and players discretion. Mage can be played like a straitjacket rules heavy game - but it really lends itself more to storytelling and meta-philosophical gaming IMNHO. This goes for all the storyteller settings; they're bad "world simulators" but great "story facilitators". If you want the former, you'll be disappointed.

e12e 9y ago

As for your concrete question, I feel your missing (but touching on) the most central aspect of magic in Mage; the paradigm. The jetpack can straddle the gap between magic and shift in paradigm just as, in the world of Mage, airplanes did when they first allowed humans to take to the skies en masse - as opposed to being reserved for a medival arch mage wearing an "icarus outfit", or riding a broomstick... As with all rpg rules if the gm and/or group haven't internalised the rules - make it up as you go along! Create house rules, and make tweaks if the game leans too heavily in any given direction. Ed: which is why: > Tell me, in concrete, non-ambiguous terms, Doesn't make sense; I can't know what your game world is like, and what feel your campaign has. If you do want a more regular rule system that might work in a similar setting I advice having a look at Ars Magica - which appears to have been a major source of inspiration for Mage.

j9461701 9y ago
>Doesn't make sense; I can't know what your game world is like, and what feel your campaign has. I'm not asking you for fluff, I'm asking you to tell me - under the game's own rule system - what the result should be to very common situations in Ascension. These are basic mechanics here, stuff that comes up literally every time I cast a spell and which the book goes into laborious detail to describe. This is not a subjective or frivolous question, if I want to play the game as written I need to know the answers. Anyway, my point was the game is mechanically an utter mess and I think these replies pretty much proven it. Not a single one of you can answer my question, and you all tacitly admit the ST needs to invent his own magic system and explain that to the players rather than actually attempt to use Ascension's real rules. >If you do want a more regular rule system that might work in a similar setting I advice having a look at Ars Magica - which appears to have been a major source of inspiration for Mage. Or just use the Mage the Awakening magic system, because White Wolf themselves recognized Ascension's system was garbage and prioritized fixing it in the nWoD. They even wrote a supplement whose sole purpose was to facilitate players backporting Awakening's magic to the setting of Ascension, called "Mage Translation Guide" - letting you have Awakening's gameplay with Ascension's setting.
- e12e 9y ago
  Why would you want to play any role-playing game "as written"? Make it your own.

Endy 9y ago

Concrete, non-ambiguous terms: Anything your Storyteller says will generate Paradox does, anything that person says will not generate Paradox does not.