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In the land of "rolling coal" (0.0), and no TÜV+AU (0),(1), any sudden punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection. (0) https://en.wikipedi

In the land of "rolling coal" (0.0), and no TÜV+AU (0),(1), any sudden punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection. (0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Überwachungsverein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Überwachungsverein (1) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgasuntersuchung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgasuntersuchung (non english WP link, basically it means "emission checking") Edit: (0.0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

wl 9y ago
There's a big difference between a few rednecks illegally modifying their personal vehicles and a company selling millions of vehicles that fail emissions standards and trying to cover it up.
- quakeguy 9y ago
  Not really, both are stupid and should be punished.
- dom0 9y ago
  > selling millions of vehicles VW sold approximately 475000 affected diesel vehicles in the US (compared to approx. 84.5 million car sales in the same time period).
  - ams6110 9y ago
    This has always been my problem with the whole case. Yes they violated the law and yes they probably should be some punishment but the real impact was almost nothing, the vehicles would have met the restrictions of only a few years prior, and the limits are almost entirely arbitrary and politically motivated.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      I agree. If we weren't on a forum filled with mostly people from CA who take for granted things like byzantine HOA rules and intrusive bylaws we'd be questioning why emissions requirements made "screw it, we're cheating on this one" a defensible decision for anyone at VW. You shouldn't have to break the law to be competitive.
      - simonh 9y ago
        How many other car manufacturers broke the law in this way? We're none of the ones that didn't competitive? What a patently ridiculous argument.
        dom0 9y ago
        Last time I checked all tested diesel cars displayed anomalies between their supposed emissions and their actual emissions. So at this point: Likely all car makers. And while this hasn't been public knowledge, it is not that surprising, because it has been public knowledge how much the mileage tests are gamed, so it's not surprising that all other tests are gamed as well (and, specifically, using defeat devices is also illegal).
        Reason077 9y ago
        The technology exists for diesel engines to meet emissions regulations. However, German car-makers secretly formed an agreement not to use certain emissions reduction technologies (such as large, refillable AdBlue tanks) in order to save money: https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16021292/german-car-companies-cartel-diesel-emissions-90s https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16021292/german-car-compa...
        rurban 9y ago
        There were a few who actually didn't cheat, or pulled out of the market. Opel is a prominent one as I remember.
      - greglindahl 9y ago
        "Screw it, we know how to meet the law, but we want to save money" is what VW did. Not only did it result in people dying from air pollution, it also left their competition wondering how VW did it so inexpensively.
    - Retric 9y ago
      It likely resulted in multiple deaths from air pollution. Now, yes worldwide 100,000's of people die every year from air pollution but simply giving up is a poor solution. Further, you can't make getting caught have similar penalties vs. cheating or you promote cheating as having zero downsides.
    - valuearb 9y ago
      They knew the law, knew their obligations under the law and broke it with clear intent. How is prosecution arbitrary or politically motivated?
dubyah 9y ago
"Rolling coal" remains an illegal modification, practiced by scofflaws. TÜVs are not immune to conflicts of interests.[0] And while generally not a separate sticker from annual car registrations, annual or biennial emissions testings are carried out by most states.[1] >any sudden punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection. Perhaps it's because the EU lacks the authority of the member states to regulate & police emission laws. They started legal proceedings against their member states precisely because of their inaction. "The European Commission on Thursday began the so-called "infringement procedures," calling Germany, Britain, Spain and Luxembourg to account for not imposing the same kind of penalties Volkswagen faced in the United States for using illegal software to mask health-harming emissions."[2] Isn't that market protection as well? [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/business/international/cozy-relations-complicate-europes-bid-for-new-car-tests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/business/international/co... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_United_States#Jurisdictions_requiring_periodic_vehicle_emissions_inspections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_Unit... [2]: http://www.dw.com/en/eu-launches-legal-case-against-germany-six-other-countries-over-vw-scandal/a-36690366 http://www.dw.com/en/eu-launches-legal-case-against-germany-...
- NegativeLatency 9y ago
  Most states emissions testing requirements are not stringent. Having lived in Washington, Oregon, and California I can say that WA's and OR's tests don't do much.
  - sitkack 9y ago
    This "hack" by VW should have been caught in weeks by the EPA. It was detected simply by driving the car around with a sensor in the tailpipe. And yes, when emissions testing switched to relying on the OBD codes, all was lost. Even I thought about hacking the ECU to report "all good"
    - valuearb 9y ago
      This intentional evasion of emissions standards couldn't have been caught by the EPA test process. That should be changed (which will open other doors for other ways to game the tests) but it doesn't have anything to do with VW's willful violation of the law.
hueving 9y ago
Did you even read the article about rolling coal? It's illegal in the US.

wl 9y ago

There's a big difference between a few rednecks illegally modifying their personal vehicles and a company selling millions of vehicles that fail emissions standards and trying to cover it up.

quakeguy 9y ago
Not really, both are stupid and should be punished.
dom0 9y ago
> selling millions of vehicles VW sold approximately 475000 affected diesel vehicles in the US (compared to approx. 84.5 million car sales in the same time period).
- ams6110 9y ago
  This has always been my problem with the whole case. Yes they violated the law and yes they probably should be some punishment but the real impact was almost nothing, the vehicles would have met the restrictions of only a few years prior, and the limits are almost entirely arbitrary and politically motivated.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    I agree. If we weren't on a forum filled with mostly people from CA who take for granted things like byzantine HOA rules and intrusive bylaws we'd be questioning why emissions requirements made "screw it, we're cheating on this one" a defensible decision for anyone at VW. You shouldn't have to break the law to be competitive.
    - simonh 9y ago
      How many other car manufacturers broke the law in this way? We're none of the ones that didn't competitive? What a patently ridiculous argument.
      - dom0 9y ago
        Last time I checked all tested diesel cars displayed anomalies between their supposed emissions and their actual emissions. So at this point: Likely all car makers. And while this hasn't been public knowledge, it is not that surprising, because it has been public knowledge how much the mileage tests are gamed, so it's not surprising that all other tests are gamed as well (and, specifically, using defeat devices is also illegal).
        Reason077 9y ago
        The technology exists for diesel engines to meet emissions regulations. However, German car-makers secretly formed an agreement not to use certain emissions reduction technologies (such as large, refillable AdBlue tanks) in order to save money: https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16021292/german-car-companies-cartel-diesel-emissions-90s https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16021292/german-car-compa...
        rurban 9y ago
        There were a few who actually didn't cheat, or pulled out of the market. Opel is a prominent one as I remember.
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      "Screw it, we know how to meet the law, but we want to save money" is what VW did. Not only did it result in people dying from air pollution, it also left their competition wondering how VW did it so inexpensively.
  - Retric 9y ago
    It likely resulted in multiple deaths from air pollution. Now, yes worldwide 100,000's of people die every year from air pollution but simply giving up is a poor solution. Further, you can't make getting caught have similar penalties vs. cheating or you promote cheating as having zero downsides.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    They knew the law, knew their obligations under the law and broke it with clear intent. How is prosecution arbitrary or politically motivated?

dubyah 9y ago

"Rolling coal" remains an illegal modification, practiced by scofflaws. TÜVs are not immune to conflicts of interests.[0] And while generally not a separate sticker from annual car registrations, annual or biennial emissions testings are carried out by most states.[1] >any sudden punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection. Perhaps it's because the EU lacks the authority of the member states to regulate & police emission laws. They started legal proceedings against their member states precisely because of their inaction. "The European Commission on Thursday began the so-called "infringement procedures," calling Germany, Britain, Spain and Luxembourg to account for not imposing the same kind of penalties Volkswagen faced in the United States for using illegal software to mask health-harming emissions."[2] Isn't that market protection as well? [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/business/international/cozy-relations-complicate-europes-bid-for-new-car-tests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/business/international/co... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_United_States#Jurisdictions_requiring_periodic_vehicle_emissions_inspections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_Unit... [2]: http://www.dw.com/en/eu-launches-legal-case-against-germany-six-other-countries-over-vw-scandal/a-36690366 http://www.dw.com/en/eu-launches-legal-case-against-germany-...

NegativeLatency 9y ago
Most states emissions testing requirements are not stringent. Having lived in Washington, Oregon, and California I can say that WA's and OR's tests don't do much.
- sitkack 9y ago
  This "hack" by VW should have been caught in weeks by the EPA. It was detected simply by driving the car around with a sensor in the tailpipe. And yes, when emissions testing switched to relying on the OBD codes, all was lost. Even I thought about hacking the ECU to report "all good"
  - valuearb 9y ago
    This intentional evasion of emissions standards couldn't have been caught by the EPA test process. That should be changed (which will open other doors for other ways to game the tests) but it doesn't have anything to do with VW's willful violation of the law.

hueving 9y ago

Did you even read the article about rolling coal? It's illegal in the US.