8 ms·

Germany, in a First, Shuts Down Left-Wing Extremist Website

60 points by Overtonwindow 9y ago

mamon 9y ago
It's nice to see that someone finally acknowledges existence of left-wing extremists. However, I'm still waiting on serious move against Antifa.
- avenoir 9y ago
  There is apparently a petition [1] to formally recognize Antifa as a terrorist organization which amassed 290k signatures. [1] http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article168734272.html http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article168734272.html
  - rpiguy 9y ago
    They are considered a terrorist organization by the state of New Jersey. I don't know how many other states classify them as such.
- ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
  That is what happened in Russia. First they got nazis, fighting people with armature, knifes and acid in the streets (car in USA). Then antifa (autonomous action etc.) stand up and start opposing nazis. Then nazis kill people (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_Baburova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_Baburova, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Khutorskoy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Khutorskoy). Then government suppresses both nazis (many of them got life sentences, especially those from BORN) and antifa, with the support of people (those like you). Then you have no activists in your country, Putin/Trump reigns forever. Nazis are intolerant and should be opposed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Update: the website used to track nazis is still alive: https://nazi-watch.noblogs.org/ https://nazi-watch.noblogs.org/ See archives section: it starts in 2008 and ends in 2013. Now antifa in USA are doing the same thing, exposing nazis to their employers and doxing them. USA is repeating Russian history.
  - odiroot 9y ago
    By this token if the only activists we're supposed to have are antifa and nazis the situation is already borked up beyond any repair.
    - krapp 9y ago
      We do have more activists, it's just that the US has a tendency towards political dualism, so reporting and dialogue tends to frame the narrative in terms of two opposing forces, "Nazis vs. Antifa", "Left vs Right", "Blue vs. Red" etc.
  - to_bpr 9y ago
    The left wing has been instigating violence since the start of the last election cycle, at every Republican rally it could, and has escalated said violence dramatically since their "side" lost. The "nazis" who came out in VA recently are a tiny group with little support. One moron carried out vehicular homicide and is being dealt with appropriately by the law. If he hadn't carried out those actions though I'm sure your narrative would be the same. I hope both groups are suppressed in equal measures, and I hope those carrying the hammer and sickle are dealt with as equally as their comrades carrying swastikas.
    - dmix 9y ago
      Apparently some people think that we won't be able to engage in politics without political violence between competing groups at protests. And further, in this vacuum of rational thought, being against any particular group committing violence it makes you in 'support' their opposing tribe and/or in support of the reigning powers. Because clearly the solution to tyranny is fringe extreme groups committing violence, supressing speech, and property destruction, the vast majority of the time against other citizens not even the state... (do I have to say /s?). A solution ripe with all the drawbacks and dangers of vigilante justice (misidentification, no due process, excessive violence, unrelated crime being masked by the mob, etc). I've always known politics was a mind killer but I never thought it could reach new levels of absurdity.
- aluhut 9y ago
  Finally? Their existence has always been acknowledged in Germany. Germany had even an pretty prominent episode of left terrorism with the RAF. What do you understand as "serious move"? They are being watched and if they commit crimes, they are being prosecuted like every other criminal.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
staticautomatic 9y ago
Germany has a history with them, for example the RAF. This may be the first website but it's not the first time.
jacquesm 9y ago
This was already covered earlier today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15097645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15097645
Dirlewanger 9y ago
>the ban was an “illegitimate act of censorship” and an “arbitrary limitation of freedom of expression and freedom of the press.” Being a filthy ignorant American, all I know about Germany regarding freedom of X is that they do have hard limits on anything related to Nazism. So how "arbitrary" is this really, especially when there's a precedent for a limit on freedom of speech? Does she even have an argument?
- SEMW 9y ago
  Of note: that quote's from a spokesperson for Die Linke, which is the direct descendent of the party (the SED) that governed Soviet-occupied east Germany between 1949 and 1990. Which was hardly well known for its high levels of freedom, of expression or otherwise
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    Look, no party in the east was known for being a paragon of free experience or anything free. Our chancellor was member of a political party that served as a fig leaf for the GDR government. Most parties in the west trace their lineage back to parties that elected the NSDAP in power in the can hope of keeping Hitler in check. The CDU notably elected and supported judges in their ranks that signed death warrants in the final days of the war (Filbinger et. al.) It's 27 years now that the GDR ceased to exist, history has been messy and there's a lot of idiots in the ranks of Die Linke, I get it (1), but it's slowly about time to judge their statements based on their political ideas and their actions where they are in power instead of their precursors. Just slapping down a statement because it's from a politician from their side doesn't really cut it any more. (1) as much as there are in other parties ranks more or less.
    - elcapitan 9y ago
      > Most parties in the west trace their lineage back to parties that elected the NSDAP in power in the can hope of keeping Hitler in check. No other parties "elected the NSDAP into power", the President Hindenburg appointed Hitler as chancellor. Who then went on to illegalize all other parties.
frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
So Germany gets embarrassed by protests and shuts down the website they used to organize? Seems pretty bad, especially when you combine this with Trump getting information on left-wingers who opposed him. Maybe right-wing sites are getting de-platformed but in those instances it's private companies asserting their rights. Seems like the leftwingers are the ones being actively discriminated against by the government(s).
- jff 9y ago
  From TFA: "And in January 2016, the Interior Ministry ordered a ban on a right-wing website, “Altermedia Deutschland.”" That is of course one instance, but if this is the first time a left-wing website has been shut down by the German government, it looks like it's no worse than 1:1!
- koolba 9y ago
  > Seems like the leftwingers are the ones being actively discriminated against by the government(s). I can assure you that if you create a right wing website with bomb making instructions and a call to action to destroy the government, then it too will be shut down. This isn't about left vs. right, this is about order vs. anarchy.
  - drcongo 9y ago
    Wait, anarchy is not the opposite of disorder, it's the opposite of authoritarianism.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  >Seems like the leftwingers are the ones being actively discriminated against by the government(s). It seems like left wing riots are much more common than right wing riots (in Europe and America) and those seem to draw the most attention from governments. However, the reality is more complicated. Esp. in America, there are a ton of recent examples (2016 to present) of mayors / college admins telling police to stand down / avoid protecting right wingers from left wing violence. Plenty of Trump supporters have been punched (or worse) during rallies. People openly call for punching Nazis (which seems to be a blanket term for individuals for conservative sympathies). Berkley? Evergreen? San Jose? The stand down orders are tantamount to a conspiracy to deprive right wing people of their civil rights and that's de jure discrimination if not active de facto discrimination. It's tough because both sides can point to some injustice and correctly say that there's an element of ideological discrimination at-play. It's disappointing that calls to reduce political violence are equivocated with partisan positions.
posguy 9y ago
Raiding people's homes over Facebook posts while claiming to protect free speech is downright wrong, just another instance of censorship and authoritarianism. This is just like the WTO protests here in Seattle, suppressing the citizenry so you can hold a conference with the bankers and influential politicians from 20 countries is apt to not end well. I'm sure Germany will focus their panopticon to try and eliminate those who seek to organize strong opposition to the G-20 summit.
scythe 9y ago
I wonder if this will be a wake-up call to those people on the left in the US who have been doubting the value of the First Amendment. It's ironic to me that many of the people saying Nazi/KKK symbols should be illegal "like in Germany" because of "incitement" are the same people saying things like "punching Nazis is cool"; how is that not incitement? Things like this are an inevitable consequence of losing the bright-line rule against censoring ideas.
- geofft 9y ago
  What I have heard from Germans is that it's pretty easy to be a neo-Nazi and convey neo-Nazi ideas in Germany, you just have to not use Nazi symbols. Don't call yourself a Nazi, just mumble something about patriotism and history, and don't use the swastika, and the government won't do anything. So I'm not sure that the bright-line rule has really been lost in Germany. (I'd appreciate being corrected about this by Germans if I have my facts wrong!)
  - majewsky 9y ago
    > and the government won't do anything Actually, chances are that the government funds you. I don't have a source at hand right now, but I recall reports that the NPD (the German nationalist party) would have gone bankrupt many times over if it weren't for a substantial number of its members being recruited by the domestic intelligence service as confidential informants, who then donated their informant salaries (or parts thereof) to the party.
  - technics256 9y ago
    As an american who lives in Germany, this couldn't be farther than the truth from anything that I have seen. I have seen much more racism and bigotry in my homeland than anything from the west to the former east. There exist bad elements in all societies; what I have seen is that German society as a whole has learned and tried to better themselves from the atrocities of their past - while it is unfortunately still strong in America. My best friends come from the "neo nazi" working class hotbeds of Leipzig and Dresden. I have never ever seen anything like you mention, ever.
ucaetano 9y ago
This is a controversial topic, so I guess I'm risking massive downvotes, but... I come from a country where being called a leftist is a compliment, and being called a rightist is generally viewed as an insult (being a centrist - like myself - also implies - in this country - that you're a rightist, go figure). While the left has always resorted to violence and aggressive tactics (beating up professors who refused to yield to "student strikes" at universities, for example), they have always claimed the moral high ground. In the meantime, any public action or protest by the right (even moderate right) was generally viewed with scorn. In other words, it was a mirror-image of the US. While the radical left in the US exists, it is mostly harmless, unlike the radical right. Europe largely works as a mirror image of the US in that sense. In France, for example, people view as acceptable that workers conduct violent strikes, sometimes kidnapping and beating up managers, but any rightist manifestation is seen as an extreme danger. It is good to see countries striving for a more neutral treatment of violent actions, from any ends of the political spectrum. [Just in case it wasn't clear enough: antifas/radical-left in the US are pretty much a harmless joke, and by no means equivalent to the radical-right/extreme-right/alt-right/Nazis/white-supremacist/whatever threat]
- mhh__ 9y ago
  Which country would that be?
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    I'm not planning to answer that, but there are dozens (dozens!) that fit that description.
    - Max_Mustermann 9y ago
      I'd go with Cuba!
      - ucaetano 9y ago
        Nope. In Cuba you can't even declare yourself a rightist without being thrown in jail.
gormo2 9y ago
All the more reason tech companies should take a stand against any kind of censorship, especially along political lines (be it left/right/whatever)
- liquidise 9y ago
  It saddens me how the discussion here is focused on what i will call "fair" censorship, where because X was censored, Y should also be censored to make it even. My American political bent surely influences this, but the censorship of ideas on the internet leaves a foul taste in my mouth. I would hope that was an opinion shared among the majority of tech folks, but comments lately on HN lead to me believe that is no longer the case.
  - alexanderstears 9y ago
    It's come up at my firm. I spoke about it 1:1 with the decision owner and advocated for my employer to be less actively censorious(?). However, I don't think there's a risk free way to express that opinion in a meeting. It doesn't help that one of my cowokers has a big "#RESIST" sticker on their work laptop (nevermind that we agree not to put stickers on our work laptops when they're issued...).
  - thomasz 9y ago
    This has nothing to do with ideas. The site was used as a dumping ground for letters claiming responsibility^1, doxxing of right wing activists, calls for violent protest and so on. The whole thing is a little bit odd because in the past, this kind of prosecution has been targeted way bigger threats: Jihadists, Biker Gangs, paramilitary Nazi groups and stuff like that. ------ ^1 for what may be best described as "petty terror": Torched cars, smashed windows etc.
- to_bpr 9y ago
  Tech companies are the ones accelerating censorship on political lines, not defending it in any manner. Tech companies, as a whole, are a social negative. Let's not appeal to them to position themselves as figures of social authoritiey or defender of rights.
nikolay 9y ago
The Neo-Commies are as dangerous as the Neo-Nazis!
- ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
  Antifa are not neo-commies and not all commies are bolsheviks.
  - nikolay 9y ago
    It's the radical mentality that's dangerous, not the political platform itself.
  - alexanderstears 9y ago
    They share the bias towards utopia that underscores all of the most murderous regimes.
mjevans 9y ago
Extremists, particularly those demonstrating or inciting violent (hopefully) illegal actions, should be reported to all applicable authorities. It should be up to the law, applied to all with equality, that decides the eventual outcome. In a short term it may be more useful to monitor the activities and determine bad actors that should also be removed from society.
briholt 9y ago
The abject denial of left-wing violence in the media and the correlating hysteria about right wing violence is disturbing and is obviously fueling the false sense of self-righteousness that is driving that very violence. Anyone with a shred of integrity denounces ALL violence, even if the perpetrators share your ideology. To help burst anyone's delusions, here's just a few recent left-wing violent incidents off the top of my head. http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05/24/berkeley-college-professor-arrested-as-assault-suspect/ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05/24/berkeley-college-prof... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/us/dallas-quiet-after-police-shooting-but-protests-flare-elsewhere.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/us/dallas-quiet-after-pol... http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton-route-police-shooting/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton-route-police-shooting... https://www.rt.com/usa/366452-portland-riots-anti-trump/ https://www.rt.com/usa/366452-portland-riots-anti-trump/ https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mob-at-middlebury-1488586505 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mob-at-middlebury-148858650...
- pjc50 9y ago
  > denounces ALL violence Police violence? War on Terror? Armed border patrols?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - apersona 9y ago
    Yes, all violence. Just because I don't support left-wing violence doesn't mean that I support whatever the left-wing is fighting against. That's what I hate about politics nowadays - it's either you're agree with us on everything or we immediately assume that you disagree with us on everything.
posterboy 9y ago
You can't shutdown a website twice, so I'll give them that, but there's bound to be more than one dimension of reasons for censorship and more than this one occurance, which I guess was found "Volksverhetzung".

60 points by Overtonwindow 9y ago

It's nice to see that someone finally acknowledges existence of left-wing extremists. However, I'm still waiting on serious move against Antifa.

avenoir 9y ago
There is apparently a petition [1] to formally recognize Antifa as a terrorist organization which amassed 290k signatures. [1] http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article168734272.html http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article168734272.html
- rpiguy 9y ago
  They are considered a terrorist organization by the state of New Jersey. I don't know how many other states classify them as such.
ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
That is what happened in Russia. First they got nazis, fighting people with armature, knifes and acid in the streets (car in USA). Then antifa (autonomous action etc.) stand up and start opposing nazis. Then nazis kill people (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_Baburova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_Baburova, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Khutorskoy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Khutorskoy). Then government suppresses both nazis (many of them got life sentences, especially those from BORN) and antifa, with the support of people (those like you). Then you have no activists in your country, Putin/Trump reigns forever. Nazis are intolerant and should be opposed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Update: the website used to track nazis is still alive: https://nazi-watch.noblogs.org/ https://nazi-watch.noblogs.org/ See archives section: it starts in 2008 and ends in 2013. Now antifa in USA are doing the same thing, exposing nazis to their employers and doxing them. USA is repeating Russian history.
- odiroot 9y ago
  By this token if the only activists we're supposed to have are antifa and nazis the situation is already borked up beyond any repair.
  - krapp 9y ago
    We do have more activists, it's just that the US has a tendency towards political dualism, so reporting and dialogue tends to frame the narrative in terms of two opposing forces, "Nazis vs. Antifa", "Left vs Right", "Blue vs. Red" etc.
- to_bpr 9y ago
  The left wing has been instigating violence since the start of the last election cycle, at every Republican rally it could, and has escalated said violence dramatically since their "side" lost. The "nazis" who came out in VA recently are a tiny group with little support. One moron carried out vehicular homicide and is being dealt with appropriately by the law. If he hadn't carried out those actions though I'm sure your narrative would be the same. I hope both groups are suppressed in equal measures, and I hope those carrying the hammer and sickle are dealt with as equally as their comrades carrying swastikas.
  - dmix 9y ago
    Apparently some people think that we won't be able to engage in politics without political violence between competing groups at protests. And further, in this vacuum of rational thought, being against any particular group committing violence it makes you in 'support' their opposing tribe and/or in support of the reigning powers. Because clearly the solution to tyranny is fringe extreme groups committing violence, supressing speech, and property destruction, the vast majority of the time against other citizens not even the state... (do I have to say /s?). A solution ripe with all the drawbacks and dangers of vigilante justice (misidentification, no due process, excessive violence, unrelated crime being masked by the mob, etc). I've always known politics was a mind killer but I never thought it could reach new levels of absurdity.
aluhut 9y ago
Finally? Their existence has always been acknowledged in Germany. Germany had even an pretty prominent episode of left terrorism with the RAF. What do you understand as "serious move"? They are being watched and if they commit crimes, they are being prosecuted like every other criminal.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

staticautomatic 9y ago

Germany has a history with them, for example the RAF. This may be the first website but it's not the first time.

jacquesm 9y ago

This was already covered earlier today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15097645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15097645

Dirlewanger 9y ago

>the ban was an “illegitimate act of censorship” and an “arbitrary limitation of freedom of expression and freedom of the press.” Being a filthy ignorant American, all I know about Germany regarding freedom of X is that they do have hard limits on anything related to Nazism. So how "arbitrary" is this really, especially when there's a precedent for a limit on freedom of speech? Does she even have an argument?

SEMW 9y ago
Of note: that quote's from a spokesperson for Die Linke, which is the direct descendent of the party (the SED) that governed Soviet-occupied east Germany between 1949 and 1990. Which was hardly well known for its high levels of freedom, of expression or otherwise
- Xylakant 9y ago
  Look, no party in the east was known for being a paragon of free experience or anything free. Our chancellor was member of a political party that served as a fig leaf for the GDR government. Most parties in the west trace their lineage back to parties that elected the NSDAP in power in the can hope of keeping Hitler in check. The CDU notably elected and supported judges in their ranks that signed death warrants in the final days of the war (Filbinger et. al.) It's 27 years now that the GDR ceased to exist, history has been messy and there's a lot of idiots in the ranks of Die Linke, I get it (1), but it's slowly about time to judge their statements based on their political ideas and their actions where they are in power instead of their precursors. Just slapping down a statement because it's from a politician from their side doesn't really cut it any more. (1) as much as there are in other parties ranks more or less.
  - elcapitan 9y ago
    > Most parties in the west trace their lineage back to parties that elected the NSDAP in power in the can hope of keeping Hitler in check. No other parties "elected the NSDAP into power", the President Hindenburg appointed Hitler as chancellor. Who then went on to illegalize all other parties.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

So Germany gets embarrassed by protests and shuts down the website they used to organize? Seems pretty bad, especially when you combine this with Trump getting information on left-wingers who opposed him. Maybe right-wing sites are getting de-platformed but in those instances it's private companies asserting their rights. Seems like the leftwingers are the ones being actively discriminated against by the government(s).

jff 9y ago
From TFA: "And in January 2016, the Interior Ministry ordered a ban on a right-wing website, “Altermedia Deutschland.”" That is of course one instance, but if this is the first time a left-wing website has been shut down by the German government, it looks like it's no worse than 1:1!
koolba 9y ago
> Seems like the leftwingers are the ones being actively discriminated against by the government(s). I can assure you that if you create a right wing website with bomb making instructions and a call to action to destroy the government, then it too will be shut down. This isn't about left vs. right, this is about order vs. anarchy.
- drcongo 9y ago
  Wait, anarchy is not the opposite of disorder, it's the opposite of authoritarianism.
alexanderstears 9y ago
>Seems like the leftwingers are the ones being actively discriminated against by the government(s). It seems like left wing riots are much more common than right wing riots (in Europe and America) and those seem to draw the most attention from governments. However, the reality is more complicated. Esp. in America, there are a ton of recent examples (2016 to present) of mayors / college admins telling police to stand down / avoid protecting right wingers from left wing violence. Plenty of Trump supporters have been punched (or worse) during rallies. People openly call for punching Nazis (which seems to be a blanket term for individuals for conservative sympathies). Berkley? Evergreen? San Jose? The stand down orders are tantamount to a conspiracy to deprive right wing people of their civil rights and that's de jure discrimination if not active de facto discrimination. It's tough because both sides can point to some injustice and correctly say that there's an element of ideological discrimination at-play. It's disappointing that calls to reduce political violence are equivocated with partisan positions.

posguy 9y ago

Raiding people's homes over Facebook posts while claiming to protect free speech is downright wrong, just another instance of censorship and authoritarianism. This is just like the WTO protests here in Seattle, suppressing the citizenry so you can hold a conference with the bankers and influential politicians from 20 countries is apt to not end well. I'm sure Germany will focus their panopticon to try and eliminate those who seek to organize strong opposition to the G-20 summit.

scythe 9y ago

I wonder if this will be a wake-up call to those people on the left in the US who have been doubting the value of the First Amendment. It's ironic to me that many of the people saying Nazi/KKK symbols should be illegal "like in Germany" because of "incitement" are the same people saying things like "punching Nazis is cool"; how is that not incitement? Things like this are an inevitable consequence of losing the bright-line rule against censoring ideas.

geofft 9y ago
What I have heard from Germans is that it's pretty easy to be a neo-Nazi and convey neo-Nazi ideas in Germany, you just have to not use Nazi symbols. Don't call yourself a Nazi, just mumble something about patriotism and history, and don't use the swastika, and the government won't do anything. So I'm not sure that the bright-line rule has really been lost in Germany. (I'd appreciate being corrected about this by Germans if I have my facts wrong!)
- majewsky 9y ago
  > and the government won't do anything Actually, chances are that the government funds you. I don't have a source at hand right now, but I recall reports that the NPD (the German nationalist party) would have gone bankrupt many times over if it weren't for a substantial number of its members being recruited by the domestic intelligence service as confidential informants, who then donated their informant salaries (or parts thereof) to the party.
- technics256 9y ago
  As an american who lives in Germany, this couldn't be farther than the truth from anything that I have seen. I have seen much more racism and bigotry in my homeland than anything from the west to the former east. There exist bad elements in all societies; what I have seen is that German society as a whole has learned and tried to better themselves from the atrocities of their past - while it is unfortunately still strong in America. My best friends come from the "neo nazi" working class hotbeds of Leipzig and Dresden. I have never ever seen anything like you mention, ever.

ucaetano 9y ago

This is a controversial topic, so I guess I'm risking massive downvotes, but... I come from a country where being called a leftist is a compliment, and being called a rightist is generally viewed as an insult (being a centrist - like myself - also implies - in this country - that you're a rightist, go figure). While the left has always resorted to violence and aggressive tactics (beating up professors who refused to yield to "student strikes" at universities, for example), they have always claimed the moral high ground. In the meantime, any public action or protest by the right (even moderate right) was generally viewed with scorn. In other words, it was a mirror-image of the US. While the radical left in the US exists, it is mostly harmless, unlike the radical right. Europe largely works as a mirror image of the US in that sense. In France, for example, people view as acceptable that workers conduct violent strikes, sometimes kidnapping and beating up managers, but any rightist manifestation is seen as an extreme danger. It is good to see countries striving for a more neutral treatment of violent actions, from any ends of the political spectrum. [Just in case it wasn't clear enough: antifas/radical-left in the US are pretty much a harmless joke, and by no means equivalent to the radical-right/extreme-right/alt-right/Nazis/white-supremacist/whatever threat]

mhh__ 9y ago
Which country would that be?
- ucaetano 9y ago
  I'm not planning to answer that, but there are dozens (dozens!) that fit that description.
  - Max_Mustermann 9y ago
    I'd go with Cuba!
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      Nope. In Cuba you can't even declare yourself a rightist without being thrown in jail.

gormo2 9y ago

All the more reason tech companies should take a stand against any kind of censorship, especially along political lines (be it left/right/whatever)

liquidise 9y ago
It saddens me how the discussion here is focused on what i will call "fair" censorship, where because X was censored, Y should also be censored to make it even. My American political bent surely influences this, but the censorship of ideas on the internet leaves a foul taste in my mouth. I would hope that was an opinion shared among the majority of tech folks, but comments lately on HN lead to me believe that is no longer the case.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  It's come up at my firm. I spoke about it 1:1 with the decision owner and advocated for my employer to be less actively censorious(?). However, I don't think there's a risk free way to express that opinion in a meeting. It doesn't help that one of my cowokers has a big "#RESIST" sticker on their work laptop (nevermind that we agree not to put stickers on our work laptops when they're issued...).
- thomasz 9y ago
  This has nothing to do with ideas. The site was used as a dumping ground for letters claiming responsibility^1, doxxing of right wing activists, calls for violent protest and so on. The whole thing is a little bit odd because in the past, this kind of prosecution has been targeted way bigger threats: Jihadists, Biker Gangs, paramilitary Nazi groups and stuff like that. ------ ^1 for what may be best described as "petty terror": Torched cars, smashed windows etc.
to_bpr 9y ago
Tech companies are the ones accelerating censorship on political lines, not defending it in any manner. Tech companies, as a whole, are a social negative. Let's not appeal to them to position themselves as figures of social authoritiey or defender of rights.

nikolay 9y ago

The Neo-Commies are as dangerous as the Neo-Nazis!

ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
Antifa are not neo-commies and not all commies are bolsheviks.
- nikolay 9y ago
  It's the radical mentality that's dangerous, not the political platform itself.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  They share the bias towards utopia that underscores all of the most murderous regimes.

mjevans 9y ago

Extremists, particularly those demonstrating or inciting violent (hopefully) illegal actions, should be reported to all applicable authorities. It should be up to the law, applied to all with equality, that decides the eventual outcome. In a short term it may be more useful to monitor the activities and determine bad actors that should also be removed from society.

briholt 9y ago

The abject denial of left-wing violence in the media and the correlating hysteria about right wing violence is disturbing and is obviously fueling the false sense of self-righteousness that is driving that very violence. Anyone with a shred of integrity denounces ALL violence, even if the perpetrators share your ideology. To help burst anyone's delusions, here's just a few recent left-wing violent incidents off the top of my head. http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05/24/berkeley-college-professor-arrested-as-assault-suspect/ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05/24/berkeley-college-prof... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/us/dallas-quiet-after-police-shooting-but-protests-flare-elsewhere.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/us/dallas-quiet-after-pol... http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton-route-police-shooting/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton-route-police-shooting... https://www.rt.com/usa/366452-portland-riots-anti-trump/ https://www.rt.com/usa/366452-portland-riots-anti-trump/ https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mob-at-middlebury-1488586505 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mob-at-middlebury-148858650...

pjc50 9y ago
> denounces ALL violence Police violence? War on Terror? Armed border patrols?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- apersona 9y ago
  Yes, all violence. Just because I don't support left-wing violence doesn't mean that I support whatever the left-wing is fighting against. That's what I hate about politics nowadays - it's either you're agree with us on everything or we immediately assume that you disagree with us on everything.

posterboy 9y ago

You can't shutdown a website twice, so I'll give them that, but there's bound to be more than one dimension of reasons for censorship and more than this one occurance, which I guess was found "Volksverhetzung".