9 ms·

Suing California for Throwing Out 45k Ballots Over Handwriting 'Mismatches'

125 points by nkurz 9y ago

kartD 9y ago
Question for someone who knows... Is the ACLU primarily an inbound or outbound organization? I mean there must be multiple transgressions occurring all the time, so it must be very difficult to keep track of everything yourself, but at the same time being inbound will mean you only hear from the "loudest" voices. So how do they strike a balance?
- i_dont_know_ 9y ago
  I've always been under the impression that you have to 'invoke' them, meaning you have to know they exist and the kind of circumstances and cases they cater to, but I'd be very interested to know if they are proactive and try to represent people that might not realize they need them.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    Both. If there is publicity, and they notice, and it is in their domain, and they have the budget, etc. they will reach out to you. At the same time, you can reach out to them and they may be able to offer some assistance. They lack funding and personnel to act on everything. I'm not a lawyer but I've donated both time and money. Note: Not all donations to them are tax deductible.
kirillzubovsky 9y ago
Glad they are doing this. Had my vote returned to me in Washington for the same dumb signature mismatch reason. Lucky enough it was in due time for me to update the signature and re-submit (I think). It's 2017 and our elections are still done using a paper signature matched by a human eye. Kind of mind-blowing how archaic it is, isn't it?
- mulmen 9y ago
  It is mind blowing because we have the technology to do it electronically but nobody can trust it because we don't have the social systems in place.
  - tonmoy 9y ago
    Are you saying that companies responsible for making this electronic systems can be trusted to not botch up something simple like making sure AWS config files are correct?
    - mulmen 9y ago
      I'm saying we can't trust the companies to do a competent job or the government to hire someone competent. People trust things they understand. Counting votes manually is easy to understand. It's hard to trust an electronic system.
      - radicalbyte 9y ago
        That and in the past electronic voting systems have been designed badly. For example electronic voting systems implemented in Microsoft Access which simple increase a counter number. It's trivial to tamper with such machines.
- alphaalpha101 9y ago
  Signature mismatch? You have to sign your ballot? Doesn't that identify that it was your ballot? It's been a couple of years since I last voted in NZ (election in 3 weeks, and it's every 3 years) but I definitely don't think you're allowed to put any identifying mark on your ballot here..
  - jayess 9y ago
    You generally sign the envelope in which you send your ballot in, not the ballot itself.
  - 9y ago
kalleboo 9y ago
As handwriting and cursive skills decline, how useful are signatures going to be? I know no two of my signatures ever look the same. In Japan instead of signatures they use personal stamps. Stamps used for your government business or banking get registered, and they can match stamps from the slight imperfections. If your stamp is stolen you register it as such so they know not to accept it. A lot of expats here complain about the stamp system, but when they get their bank to use their signature instead, they complain that the bank actually verifies the signature, and I've heard stories of people refilling out the same form 3 times just to get their signature to match the one on file!
- ekianjo 9y ago
  > A lot of expats here complain about the stamp system, but when they get their bank to use their signature instead, they complain that the bank actually verifies the signature, and I've heard stories of people refilling out the same form 3 times just to get their signature to match the one on file! This happened to me several times. That's because they use a machine to verify differences in signatures and as long as the machines do not OK the operation you have to retry. It's retarded, because that verification is made for stamps and not signatures and therefore it probably is not trained properly for the subtles differences in signatures from one to the next. And the stamp system in Japan is retarded anyway, because it's super easy to reproduce one's stamp if you have a paper with that imprint lying around. It's not like the stamp is precise at the nanometer level or something. > how useful are signatures going to be? I dont even know why we need signatures honestly - at the bank you should be able to present your national ID or passport and that should be sufficient. And nobody writes checks anymore anyway.
  - tajen 9y ago
    Meanwhile, Estonia has a digital certificate on the chipset of their ID card for all their citizen... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_ID_card https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_ID_card
    - aikinai 9y ago
boneheadmed 9y ago
This is a great smoke screen for the ACLU to blow. While the real problem of MASSIVE illegal alien voter fraud continues in California. How does a state go from voting for proposition 187 to halt illegal immigration and having a conservative governor like Pete Wilson to the far leftist government presently in place? Massive voter fraud is the answer. I'm so glad the Trump administration is investigating :)
- Fej 9y ago
  That's a quite serious accusation. Do you have some evidence (from a reputable source) that confirms this?
  - boneheadmed 9y ago
    One actually investigated: http://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/report/election-fraud-the-2008-indiana-presidential-campaign-case-study http://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/report/election-f... In CA they will fight like hell to prevent it from ever being investigated. And why would they block an "open" voting process from being investigated? A scandal in its own right.
    - Fej 9y ago
      The Heritage Foundation is a think tank, not a primary source. Do you know of any primary sources? The article you linked to talks about election fraud (i.e. the rigging of an election), not voter fraud (i.e. a ballot voted by one who is ineligible to vote).
      - boneheadmed 9y ago
        Sure. Study the history of leftists like Lenin and Stalin and see how they got their "votes". Works the same way in California. And just like in the Soviet Union, you'll never be able to see the voter data to prove it, because communist governments will not allow that. You have to actually think outside the ballot box to figure it out.
CodeWriter23 9y ago
So now I understand why my wife and 4 other people I know had their registration type changed from in-person to mail-in without their request or knowledge.
cdevs 9y ago
We need some form of bitcoin movement for identity it's such a broken system. No one trust voting electronically for fear of hacking but small valunteer run events aren't much safer.
- eli 9y ago
  I'm not convinced mail-in ballots need strong identity verification in the first place.
Tyrannosaur 9y ago
Wait- handwriting is actually used for something? IIRC, handwriting analysis is not allowed in US courts of law because of its supposed inaccuracies. Why are we using it for any other legal uses? I mean, using a signature as a legal, "I was there and I approved this document" is all fine and dandy, but for authentication? There are much better methods

125 points by nkurz 9y ago

Question for someone who knows... Is the ACLU primarily an inbound or outbound organization? I mean there must be multiple transgressions occurring all the time, so it must be very difficult to keep track of everything yourself, but at the same time being inbound will mean you only hear from the "loudest" voices. So how do they strike a balance?

i_dont_know_ 9y ago
I've always been under the impression that you have to 'invoke' them, meaning you have to know they exist and the kind of circumstances and cases they cater to, but I'd be very interested to know if they are proactive and try to represent people that might not realize they need them.
- KGIII 9y ago
  Both. If there is publicity, and they notice, and it is in their domain, and they have the budget, etc. they will reach out to you. At the same time, you can reach out to them and they may be able to offer some assistance. They lack funding and personnel to act on everything. I'm not a lawyer but I've donated both time and money. Note: Not all donations to them are tax deductible.

kirillzubovsky 9y ago

Glad they are doing this. Had my vote returned to me in Washington for the same dumb signature mismatch reason. Lucky enough it was in due time for me to update the signature and re-submit (I think). It's 2017 and our elections are still done using a paper signature matched by a human eye. Kind of mind-blowing how archaic it is, isn't it?

mulmen 9y ago
It is mind blowing because we have the technology to do it electronically but nobody can trust it because we don't have the social systems in place.
- tonmoy 9y ago
  Are you saying that companies responsible for making this electronic systems can be trusted to not botch up something simple like making sure AWS config files are correct?
  - mulmen 9y ago
    I'm saying we can't trust the companies to do a competent job or the government to hire someone competent. People trust things they understand. Counting votes manually is easy to understand. It's hard to trust an electronic system.
    - radicalbyte 9y ago
      That and in the past electronic voting systems have been designed badly. For example electronic voting systems implemented in Microsoft Access which simple increase a counter number. It's trivial to tamper with such machines.
alphaalpha101 9y ago
Signature mismatch? You have to sign your ballot? Doesn't that identify that it was your ballot? It's been a couple of years since I last voted in NZ (election in 3 weeks, and it's every 3 years) but I definitely don't think you're allowed to put any identifying mark on your ballot here..
- jayess 9y ago
  You generally sign the envelope in which you send your ballot in, not the ballot itself.
- 9y ago

kalleboo 9y ago

As handwriting and cursive skills decline, how useful are signatures going to be? I know no two of my signatures ever look the same. In Japan instead of signatures they use personal stamps. Stamps used for your government business or banking get registered, and they can match stamps from the slight imperfections. If your stamp is stolen you register it as such so they know not to accept it. A lot of expats here complain about the stamp system, but when they get their bank to use their signature instead, they complain that the bank actually verifies the signature, and I've heard stories of people refilling out the same form 3 times just to get their signature to match the one on file!

ekianjo 9y ago
> A lot of expats here complain about the stamp system, but when they get their bank to use their signature instead, they complain that the bank actually verifies the signature, and I've heard stories of people refilling out the same form 3 times just to get their signature to match the one on file! This happened to me several times. That's because they use a machine to verify differences in signatures and as long as the machines do not OK the operation you have to retry. It's retarded, because that verification is made for stamps and not signatures and therefore it probably is not trained properly for the subtles differences in signatures from one to the next. And the stamp system in Japan is retarded anyway, because it's super easy to reproduce one's stamp if you have a paper with that imprint lying around. It's not like the stamp is precise at the nanometer level or something. > how useful are signatures going to be? I dont even know why we need signatures honestly - at the bank you should be able to present your national ID or passport and that should be sufficient. And nobody writes checks anymore anyway.
- tajen 9y ago
  Meanwhile, Estonia has a digital certificate on the chipset of their ID card for all their citizen... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_ID_card https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_ID_card
  - aikinai 9y ago

boneheadmed 9y ago

This is a great smoke screen for the ACLU to blow. While the real problem of MASSIVE illegal alien voter fraud continues in California. How does a state go from voting for proposition 187 to halt illegal immigration and having a conservative governor like Pete Wilson to the far leftist government presently in place? Massive voter fraud is the answer. I'm so glad the Trump administration is investigating :)

Fej 9y ago
That's a quite serious accusation. Do you have some evidence (from a reputable source) that confirms this?
- boneheadmed 9y ago
  One actually investigated: http://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/report/election-fraud-the-2008-indiana-presidential-campaign-case-study http://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/report/election-f... In CA they will fight like hell to prevent it from ever being investigated. And why would they block an "open" voting process from being investigated? A scandal in its own right.
  - Fej 9y ago
    The Heritage Foundation is a think tank, not a primary source. Do you know of any primary sources? The article you linked to talks about election fraud (i.e. the rigging of an election), not voter fraud (i.e. a ballot voted by one who is ineligible to vote).
    - boneheadmed 9y ago
      Sure. Study the history of leftists like Lenin and Stalin and see how they got their "votes". Works the same way in California. And just like in the Soviet Union, you'll never be able to see the voter data to prove it, because communist governments will not allow that. You have to actually think outside the ballot box to figure it out.

CodeWriter23 9y ago

So now I understand why my wife and 4 other people I know had their registration type changed from in-person to mail-in without their request or knowledge.

cdevs 9y ago

We need some form of bitcoin movement for identity it's such a broken system. No one trust voting electronically for fear of hacking but small valunteer run events aren't much safer.

eli 9y ago
I'm not convinced mail-in ballots need strong identity verification in the first place.

Tyrannosaur 9y ago

Wait- handwriting is actually used for something? IIRC, handwriting analysis is not allowed in US courts of law because of its supposed inaccuracies. Why are we using it for any other legal uses? I mean, using a signature as a legal, "I was there and I approved this document" is all fine and dandy, but for authentication? There are much better methods