5 ms·

>On stock, you actually own the stock, through your broker. I am fairly certain nowadays Cede & Company owns 100% of all the stock in all US markets (NASDAQ, N

>On stock, you actually own the stock, through your broker. I am fairly certain nowadays Cede & Company owns 100% of all the stock in all US markets (NASDAQ, NYSE, etc...). But if you believe you own stock that is exactly the type of confusion and uncertainty the markets themselves want the public to believe, at least according to the litigation I am familiar with, but don't take my word, familiarize yourself with the Depository Trust Company (DTC) and Cede and come to your own conclusions about stock ownership.

barrkel 9y ago
You're factually correct about physical tokens, but it's not what the system is built on - that's contracts.
- will_brown 9y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by physical tokens, but the rest sounds about right. And they can downvote me all they want, as you say I am factually correct, because factually Cede literally and technically owns the stock and everyone else just has varying degrees of contractual rights, but most importantly in no way could that lead to physical possession or even technical ownership of the stock from Cede. And I will not even go down the rabbit hole of contractual rights, but obviously includes legitimate ideas of economic interest and voting rights, but as the comment above noted about brokers, that is were things get very interesting, because then often times people don't even own contractual rights, or alternatively many party's simultaneously have varying degrees of contractual rights over the same stock (often times leading to factual inconsistencies and legal impossibilities).
ajdlinux 9y ago
Cede & Co isn't the nominal registered owner of all stock on the US markets - not all US shares are street name. My IBM shares, for example, are held directly with Computershare as transfer agent/share registry. Of course, go outside the US where the stock markets are less insane, and you'll find plenty of places where direct electronic registration is perfectly normal, such as Australia.
- will_brown 9y ago
  John Wilcox is one of the leading legal authorities on the subject and specifically funny enough uses IBM and DTC as an example, in this except from the SEC website: "Example. John Investor purchased 1,000 sharhs of IBM common stock through Meril Lynch, his broker (a DTC participant). John Investor's shares are a small fraction of the total shares deposited in Merrill Lynch's participant account (i.e,,, 10 million), which in turn are a small fraction of the total number of IBM shares represented by certificates held in DTC's vaults live., 100 million). (DTC's entire position (100 million) is represented on IBM's share register under the name "Cede & Co."') After John Investor gave his broker the instruction to purchase the shares, his broker obtained them in the market from one or more sellers, each of which ultimately had its own DTC participant account. To effectuate the trade, DTC reduced the selling participants' accounts by an aggregate of 1,000 and increased Merril Lynchs account by 1,000. It is important to understand that DTC legally owned those shares both before and after the transaction-it merely shifted them from one account to another." See: https://www.sec.gov/comments/4-537/4537-25.pdf https://www.sec.gov/comments/4-537/4537-25.pdf But I'll concede the point as Computershare is the actual owner not DTC/Cede, but replace DTC/Cede with Computershare, the ownership principal is the same, Computershare is the legal owner of IMB shares at all times (before and after you buy the stock) you would only become a beneficial owner at any given point.
  - ajdlinux 9y ago
    (I need to do a bit more research when I get home and have access to my account details... this is, of course, the understanding of one, individual, non-American investor.) No - in my case, Computershare is the transfer agent, not a nominee. Computershare is contracted by IBM to actually administer and maintain IBM's share register, in which Cede & Co is listed as the legal owner of a huge chunk of shares, and I'm directly registered as the legal owner of a couple of thousand dollars of shares. Google "direct registration". I didn't buy my IBM shares through a broker/DTC participant/any other financial institution. In my case, IBM issued the shares directly to me, instructing Computershare to update the share register accordingly.
    - 9y ago
cm2187 9y ago
I don't know if I agree. It's a bit like if you purchased a property through a holding company and that I would object: you don't own the property, the holding company owns it. It might be technically correct but concluding that you do not own the property is misleading.

barrkel 9y ago

You're factually correct about physical tokens, but it's not what the system is built on - that's contracts.

will_brown 9y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by physical tokens, but the rest sounds about right. And they can downvote me all they want, as you say I am factually correct, because factually Cede literally and technically owns the stock and everyone else just has varying degrees of contractual rights, but most importantly in no way could that lead to physical possession or even technical ownership of the stock from Cede. And I will not even go down the rabbit hole of contractual rights, but obviously includes legitimate ideas of economic interest and voting rights, but as the comment above noted about brokers, that is were things get very interesting, because then often times people don't even own contractual rights, or alternatively many party's simultaneously have varying degrees of contractual rights over the same stock (often times leading to factual inconsistencies and legal impossibilities).

ajdlinux 9y ago

Cede & Co isn't the nominal registered owner of all stock on the US markets - not all US shares are street name. My IBM shares, for example, are held directly with Computershare as transfer agent/share registry. Of course, go outside the US where the stock markets are less insane, and you'll find plenty of places where direct electronic registration is perfectly normal, such as Australia.

will_brown 9y ago
John Wilcox is one of the leading legal authorities on the subject and specifically funny enough uses IBM and DTC as an example, in this except from the SEC website: "Example. John Investor purchased 1,000 sharhs of IBM common stock through Meril Lynch, his broker (a DTC participant). John Investor's shares are a small fraction of the total shares deposited in Merrill Lynch's participant account (i.e,,, 10 million), which in turn are a small fraction of the total number of IBM shares represented by certificates held in DTC's vaults live., 100 million). (DTC's entire position (100 million) is represented on IBM's share register under the name "Cede & Co."') After John Investor gave his broker the instruction to purchase the shares, his broker obtained them in the market from one or more sellers, each of which ultimately had its own DTC participant account. To effectuate the trade, DTC reduced the selling participants' accounts by an aggregate of 1,000 and increased Merril Lynchs account by 1,000. It is important to understand that DTC legally owned those shares both before and after the transaction-it merely shifted them from one account to another." See: https://www.sec.gov/comments/4-537/4537-25.pdf https://www.sec.gov/comments/4-537/4537-25.pdf But I'll concede the point as Computershare is the actual owner not DTC/Cede, but replace DTC/Cede with Computershare, the ownership principal is the same, Computershare is the legal owner of IMB shares at all times (before and after you buy the stock) you would only become a beneficial owner at any given point.
- ajdlinux 9y ago
  (I need to do a bit more research when I get home and have access to my account details... this is, of course, the understanding of one, individual, non-American investor.) No - in my case, Computershare is the transfer agent, not a nominee. Computershare is contracted by IBM to actually administer and maintain IBM's share register, in which Cede & Co is listed as the legal owner of a huge chunk of shares, and I'm directly registered as the legal owner of a couple of thousand dollars of shares. Google "direct registration". I didn't buy my IBM shares through a broker/DTC participant/any other financial institution. In my case, IBM issued the shares directly to me, instructing Computershare to update the share register accordingly.
  - 9y ago

cm2187 9y ago

I don't know if I agree. It's a bit like if you purchased a property through a holding company and that I would object: you don't own the property, the holding company owns it. It might be technically correct but concluding that you do not own the property is misleading.