7 ms·

Capitalism doesn't need to be enforced, people willingly exchanging things happens naturally, regulating and taxing these exchanges requires initiation of force

Capitalism doesn't need to be enforced, people willingly exchanging things happens naturally, regulating and taxing these exchanges requires initiation of force though (socialism). > I fail to see how the mixture of socialism and capitalism as it was implemented in most of Western Europe in the second half of the last century could be used as an argument for the hypothesis that "all kinds of socialism are bad". And there lies the problem. Just Google issues of Keynesianism and why it's bad or have a blast and go read some Tocqueville, Jean-Baptiste Say or Bastiat.

copyright_sux 9y ago
Of course full capitalism needs to be enforced. People using the resources they need happens naturally. Protecting private property requires initiation of force. Just Google issues of Libertarianism.
- patrickaljord 9y ago
  If your body is your private property, then anyone trying to trespass without your consent is initiating force and enforcing is not initiation of force. I consider the fruit of my labor to be, like my body, my private property and anyone trespassing it without my consent is initiating force.
  - copyright_sux 9y ago
    Most people protect their body, because they have instinct for self-preservation, regardless of their beliefs about property. You presented no argument why we should treat natural resources or fruit of labor the same as human body. You just assume Libertarian definitions. It's a bit like fundamentalist religious person saying "I consider love to be a product of a god, so you feeling love confirms gods existence." There is no interesting argument in that statement.
    - patrickaljord 9y ago
      Actually most mammals instinctively defend with force the fruit of their labor or their private property. Just try to steal a monkey's food of try to walk on the land of a lion he peed on to mark it as his and see what happens to you. It's natural to most mammals (and even reptiles) to protect their private property and fruit of labor as if it was their own body because their survival depends on these things not being trespassed.
      - copyright_sux 9y ago
        I don't see why rules of human society should be based on a subset of behavior of animals, that you conviniently cherry-picked.
        patrickaljord 9y ago
        We're animals too, mammals to be precise, sounds like an honest cherry-picked as it's literally the family of animals we belong to. Hard to fight one of our most basic animal nature: the defense of our body and personal territory and property.
bhaak 9y ago
Socialism also happens naturally. I've met lots of hospitable people that willingly shared goods with me without anything in return but my presence. People also used to kill each over everything. Human beings are complex and do lots of things. The problems are only starting when a society emerges that is too large to selfgovern. Looks like you put everything that resembles "big government" or "government intervention" under socialism. I wouldn't understand how else you could even remotely think that Keynesianism could be called socialism. Keynes considered himself a capitalist. One remark. Discussions work much better if you actually tell your opinion and give one or two substantial arguments. Resorting to name dropping doesn't make for an interesting exchange of thoughts.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  Voluntary gifts aren't the same thing as socialism.
  - bhaak 9y ago
    Neither is willingly exchanging goods the same thing as capitalism. But if you go back so far and claim that some -ism develops naturally, you have to find some similar actions. Not even talking about that "exchanging goods" (even for money) does also happen in socialism and communism.
    - patrickaljord 9y ago
      It happens naturally but not without force, theft (like murder) happens naturally but not without coercion. The free exchange of goods and service between consenting adults happens without coercion, and naturally.
      - copyright_sux 9y ago
        The problem is most people probably don't agree with your definition of force and theft. I also don't know how you define the natural and why it should matter whether something is natural or not.

copyright_sux 9y ago

Of course full capitalism needs to be enforced. People using the resources they need happens naturally. Protecting private property requires initiation of force. Just Google issues of Libertarianism.

patrickaljord 9y ago
If your body is your private property, then anyone trying to trespass without your consent is initiating force and enforcing is not initiation of force. I consider the fruit of my labor to be, like my body, my private property and anyone trespassing it without my consent is initiating force.
- copyright_sux 9y ago
  Most people protect their body, because they have instinct for self-preservation, regardless of their beliefs about property. You presented no argument why we should treat natural resources or fruit of labor the same as human body. You just assume Libertarian definitions. It's a bit like fundamentalist religious person saying "I consider love to be a product of a god, so you feeling love confirms gods existence." There is no interesting argument in that statement.
  - patrickaljord 9y ago
    Actually most mammals instinctively defend with force the fruit of their labor or their private property. Just try to steal a monkey's food of try to walk on the land of a lion he peed on to mark it as his and see what happens to you. It's natural to most mammals (and even reptiles) to protect their private property and fruit of labor as if it was their own body because their survival depends on these things not being trespassed.
    - copyright_sux 9y ago
      I don't see why rules of human society should be based on a subset of behavior of animals, that you conviniently cherry-picked.
      - patrickaljord 9y ago
        We're animals too, mammals to be precise, sounds like an honest cherry-picked as it's literally the family of animals we belong to. Hard to fight one of our most basic animal nature: the defense of our body and personal territory and property.

bhaak 9y ago

Socialism also happens naturally. I've met lots of hospitable people that willingly shared goods with me without anything in return but my presence. People also used to kill each over everything. Human beings are complex and do lots of things. The problems are only starting when a society emerges that is too large to selfgovern. Looks like you put everything that resembles "big government" or "government intervention" under socialism. I wouldn't understand how else you could even remotely think that Keynesianism could be called socialism. Keynes considered himself a capitalist. One remark. Discussions work much better if you actually tell your opinion and give one or two substantial arguments. Resorting to name dropping doesn't make for an interesting exchange of thoughts.

humanrebar 9y ago
Voluntary gifts aren't the same thing as socialism.
- bhaak 9y ago
  Neither is willingly exchanging goods the same thing as capitalism. But if you go back so far and claim that some -ism develops naturally, you have to find some similar actions. Not even talking about that "exchanging goods" (even for money) does also happen in socialism and communism.
  - patrickaljord 9y ago
    It happens naturally but not without force, theft (like murder) happens naturally but not without coercion. The free exchange of goods and service between consenting adults happens without coercion, and naturally.
    - copyright_sux 9y ago
      The problem is most people probably don't agree with your definition of force and theft. I also don't know how you define the natural and why it should matter whether something is natural or not.