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Node.js is forked to Ayo.js (pronounced like “IO”)

101 points by akras14 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
sand500 9y ago
Since the comments say this is probably due to political reasons, I feel like this fork would mean a lot more if it included contributions that were rejected by nodejs as well as a communitity of contributors to keep this fork active.
quickthrower2 9y ago
Aye! Oh!
- gardnr 9y ago
  Ever since SCSI I can't say that anyone will have success trying to encourage people to pronounce their project names in a certain way. Good luck to them though and anything that improves the node space is welcome in my book. Forks included.
  - gardnr 9y ago
    Relevant wikipedia article: > Almost a full day was devoted to agreeing to name the standard "Small Computer System Interface", which Boucher intended to be pronounced "sexy", but ENDL's Dal Allan pronounced the new acronym as "scuzzy" and that stuck. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI
    - thrillgore 9y ago
      Scuzzy has more character to it. I'll never pronounce GIF as JIF though.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
tedivm 9y ago
For those asking what the reason of the fork is it looks like it has something to do with a code of conduct violation by one of the node developers that the steering committee voted to ignore. I have no idea what the story behind it as it doesn't seem like anyone has actually published the full story. Regardless of the reason, this seems like a premature announcement of the project. There isn't a roadmap, list of distinguishing features, or the guiding principles. More information is definitly needed here.
- Pyxl101 9y ago
  Yes. Anyone can "fork" any code for any time and reason. Anyone can announce that they're doing it. What makes this newsworthy? Is it a credible fork? What's the reason for the fork? Who is contributing? > Current Project Team Members > To be written Hmmm.
fvdessen 9y ago
What is the reason for the fork ?
- wmichelin 9y ago
  Seems to be disagreement on either architecture, failure to implement specific features or fix specific bugs, and angers over the policies of the node.js maintainers.
- gizmo686 9y ago
  From the issues, it sounds like there is some sort of political dispute. https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/4 https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/4
- marksomnian 9y ago
  From an issue: > I'd be open to re-merging if and when the problems plaguing Node.js are resolved. Problematic people removed; use of "policy" as an excuse ended; power structures reorganized to emphasize community over tech. So far though it seems like there's little desire to fix these problems from those with the power to do so.
- akras14 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139
- hasenj 9y ago
  SJW rage, it seems.
- starkruzr 9y ago
  SJW rage is good, actually.
ilaksh 9y ago
What's the reason they forked/main difference from Node.js?
- akras14 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139
- marksomnian 9y ago
  From an issue: > I'd be open to re-merging if and when the problems plaguing Node.js are resolved. Problematic people removed; use of "policy" as an excuse ended; power structures reorganized to emphasize community over tech. So far though it seems like there's little desire to fix these problems from those with the power to do so.
  - geldan 9y ago
    Silly node, emphasizing tech.
    - exdaedalus 9y ago
      Tech is nothing without people behind it. I don't think it's stupid to take a few moments to think about whether driving away some members of the contributing community away is worth it for what was said.
  - mdekkers 9y ago
    emphasize community over tech ...speechless. client: Why is there only clear text and flashing ads on my screen? developer: Oh, yes - we implemented the new ayo libraries! client: This looks like shit. Give me my site back! developer: but, you don't understand! The new libraries are great, they emphasize community over tech! client: [......] client: [calls her P.A.] Richard, go find me a new tech team.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
nmbr213 9y ago
What, again?
- egeozcan 9y ago
  If it ends up having a similar impact like IO.js, I would say, why not. Fork it every other month, I wouldn't care. If this is less "technical issues need to be resolved and we need to be agile" and more "I hate the other person so I won't work with him/her" though, then it would just cause problems all around the community.
- weiyi 9y ago
  Why, again?
akras14 9y ago
Reasons for fork: "Repeated ToC violations by an authority figure went unaddressed." https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096 https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096 Not sure what ToC is, but the alleged violations appear to be of Code of Conduct. Alleged violations are described here: https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 Most links are private, but here are the public ones: https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 https://twitter.com/captainsafia/status/887782785221615618 https://twitter.com/captainsafia/status/887782785221615618 https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049 https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049
- kowdermeister 9y ago
  Who are they talking about?
  - akras14 9y ago
    Rod Vagg https://twitter.com/rvagg https://twitter.com/rvagg https://github.com/rvagg https://github.com/rvagg
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Going through those links it's still not obvious what's happening. @rvagg has some kind of leadership position, has some strong opinions about codes of conduct (not the only one), and they're forking the project for that? What?
  - akras14 9y ago
    It is unclear. Seemed like he has repeatedly used a language that some community members found offensive. His stance against Code of Conduct, as evident by this Tweet: https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 and follow up comments were considered inappropriate by some. Even more details here: https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 """ The TSC members were not able to reach a natural consensus on the steps forward so a vote was called on two specific questions: (A) Should Rod be removed from the TSC: Yes or No (B) Should Rod be asked to voluntarily resign from the TSC: Yes or No There are 13 members of the TSC. 10 members voted, two abstained, and Rod did not participate. The vote came down 60% against removing Rod from the TSC and 60% against asking Rod to voluntarily resign. """
deft 9y ago
This literally already happened once over a minor argument and a week later they got back together. Why...?
anilgulecha 9y ago
The way this fork has been presented clearly indicates this fork has no future. If you indeed have problems with the way nodejs is run, the first thing you do with a fork is present it upfront in your fork, with some idea on how you're going to go forward. All you see here is one issue potentially discussing some bad policies or people. wishy washy. And discussion in another thread is almost satirical -- discussing "lifetime" of a benevolent dictator "for life". [1] There's no clear leadership or goals for this fork. [1] https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/2 https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/2
kybernetikos 9y ago
The previous fork was successful because a lot of the developers went with the fork and it was fulfilling an unserviced need in the community for a node built on newer versions of v8. Does anyone know if this fork has much of a chance of survival?
- LoSboccacc 9y ago
  didn't follow the node development closely, what was this fork?
  - photonios 9y ago
    It was called io.js.
    - zeronight 9y ago
      And this one is pronounced the same way? That won't be confusing in conversation.
  - pfranz 9y ago
    io.js https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node.js#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node.js#History
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    The previous fork was io.js, it's contributions have now been brought back under the Node.js umbrella. This new fork is almost a non-story by comparison, if it gets even a minor level of traction amongst developers I'll be surprised. Even the repo creator has half-arsed the readme.
  - naibafo 9y ago
    io.js forked 2014, planning to keep io.js up-to-date with the V8 engine. Node.js foundation was later founded and later in 2015 io.js and node.js merged into Node 4.0.
- spartanatreyu 9y ago
convery 9y ago
Line that stood out to me: "Rod retweeted in support of an inflammatory anti-Code-of-Conduct article" If you're not 100% onboard with the politics, you're a horrible person.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  While I agree with this specific point, it seems that was the "least worse" of that person's actions.
  - fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
    What where his really bad actions? Can't find much info.
    - Nimelrian 9y ago
      Using non-gender-neutral pronouns and assumptions of gender, according to a post on golem.de https://forum.golem.de/kommentare/opensource/open-source-node.js-fuehrung-zerstreitet-sich-ueber-code-of-conduct/der-konkrete-verstoss/111590,4885673,4885839,read.html https://forum.golem.de/kommentare/opensource/open-source-nod...
      - fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
        Thanks
  - GenericsMotors 9y ago
    Could you please provide examples?
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139
ishtu 9y ago
Make sure you use proper [1] CoC next time you start new project. Proper as in not easy to abuse for political reason or just because some SJW decided you are wrong. [1] https://github.com/fantasylandinst/fcop https://github.com/fantasylandinst/fcop
hasenj 9y ago
Sounds like BS. Possibly relevant: Eric S. Raymond: Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs (2015) http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918
- whipoodle 9y ago
  Oh brother.
- pgo 9y ago
  The awesome-django issue here is full of BS. https://archive.is/dgilk https://archive.is/dgilk
- tomjakubowski 9y ago
  Good christ, I can't believe I'm responding to an ESR blog post, but this "djangoconcardiff" account joined Github [1] the same day every comment in that thread was posted… which was, by the way, months after the DjangoCon in Cardiff wrapped up. How do people not see that whole incident as the bad-faith troll that it clearly is? [1]: https://archive.is/UDFZt#selection-193.0-193.16 https://archive.is/UDFZt#selection-193.0-193.16
  - hasenj 9y ago
    It clearly is bad-faith. Is it just a random troll? Not likely, since there are several other similar incidents.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 9y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 and marked it off-topic.
bluepnume 9y ago
I've been clicking around on twitter and github for five minutes and there seems to be zero specifics about what actually happened. What's with the secrecy? Not saying this is a non-issue, but the best way to present your issue as a non-issue is to be this vague about what you're complaining about.
tree_of_item 9y ago
Are they seriously forking the project because they don't like one person involved in it?
- SolarNet 9y ago
  And that the rest of the community is supporting his alleged abusiveness (e.g. by voting to keep him on board). It's not just because they dislike him, it's because the community in general seems fine with his kind of behavior. Not that I am supporting it, just explaining why in their view this is bigger than just him.
kolme 9y ago
They're flipping out because of a tweet, and all it had was a link to an article against codes of conduct. "Additionally he discussed private information from the moderation repo in the public thread, which is explicitly against he moderation policy". I don't like such secrecy. What's going on in there? Wasn't community so important, why can't we know? So what if that guy doesn't like CoCs? It is fine for people to have other opinions. This is another case of people over reacting over small stuff like it happened with Brendan Eich or Douglas Crockford. Oh gee, some people need to chill out.
- anfedorov 9y ago
  While I definitely see where you are coming from, simplifying people's emotional reactions to things to "some people need to chill out" belittles their feelings in a way that isn't helpful. We can support folks who are being attacked unfairly (as @rvagg appears to be from a cursory review of the "evidence" against him) without belittling those who feel maligned.
  - mlsarecmg 9y ago
    Until you realize the same people that are crying out now have been doing this before. Kas Perch, one of the agitators, https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049 https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049 used the same tactic against Crockford last year (Nodevember conf), also without any concrete evidence other than "he made me feel bad." If you go through regular tweets of the other heckers like Kat, https://twitter.com/maybekatz/status/900414216888139776 https://twitter.com/maybekatz/status/900414216888139776 they're breaking their own CoC daily, but that's apparently fine because hating on white/men/straight/christian is considered PC. Why do you give these sick people lee way is beyond me. They are bullies and they should be recognized as such.
    - _Marak_ 9y ago
      > They are bullies and they should be recognized as such. 100% agree. I've had to previously block both of these users you mentioned for harassment over Twitter. It got to the point where one of them started taking out of context screenshots of my Twitter stream and attempting to rally other SJW twitter users to send harassing messages to me. I did my own research weeks ago and found that Rod didn't do anything wrong. If anyone finds evidence to the contrary, please let me know.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
weitzj 9y ago
Blog post: https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-stepping-down-from-the-nodejs-tsc-3df37c6ccbae https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-s...
caffed 9y ago
He seems like a candidate for being a douchey provocateur. Tech-libertarian too? It's hard enough having the JS community taken seriously with the zeitgeist framework changing too quickly.
riston 9y ago
We are fixing too many problems by forking, please stop!
Grue3 9y ago
The issues page says it all: https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues . This is not a software project. There will be no actual code written.
- mdekkers 9y ago
  Indeed. I had a look at all the brouhaha on the node.js github yesterday (I love me some open-source soap-opera drama, especially when it involves non or barely-coding SJW's - it's my guilty pleasure) and had a quick look at the commit histories of the most vocal "This guy has to go!!!1!" proponents - the code-to-noise ratio is unsurprisingly low.
cycomachead 9y ago
Here we go again... ? Then again, this doesn't seem anywhere near as crazy as the IO.js days.
readittwice 9y ago
First: I like the name! That said, it is a bit unfortunate to fork or at least to try to fork a project like Node.js over these reasons. Although it is quite likely that the fork was mainly created to pressure the Node-devs to remove rvagg from the project after all. What puzzles me: Even if we agree that rvagg violated the Code of Conduct, I am not sure that this should be enough to remove him from the TSC (Technical Steering Committee). Here are the alleged violations, so that you can decide for yourself: https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212.
- drspacemonkey 9y ago
  "Rod should have predicted the kind of response this tweet received" I was on the fence until I hit that part. The tacit admission that they're holding him responsible for what other people are saying on Twitter is all I need to know. They wanna feel like righteous warriors defeating evil.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    Heads I win, tails you lose situation. If you say something uncivil, you are guilty. If you are perfectly reasonable and somebody trolls and curses you out on twitter, you are still guilty, because you "should have predicted" they'd do that if you disagree with them.
stesch 9y ago
Would you rather use good code by a shitty person or shitty code by a good person?
- vermontdevil 9y ago
  Good code. Shitty people are replaceable. Good code are priceless.
- curtisblaine 9y ago
  Good code from a shitty person every time.
- amiga-workbench 9y ago
  A person's politics are immaterial to the outcome.
- YeOakAye 9y ago
  If reiserfs was the best fs around, you bet I'd still be using it.
uitgewis 9y ago
Also related to this: https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-stepping-down-from-the-nodejs-tsc-3df37c6ccbae https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-s...
anotherbrownguy 9y ago
Brace yourself. SJWs are coming after software projects this year.
- amiga-workbench 9y ago
  I'm pleasantly surprised PHP has remained largely SJW free, probably because it's not trendy. I imagine microcontroller software development stays free of them too, largely because of the barrier to entry.
  - GenericsMotors 9y ago
    > I imagine microcontroller software development stays free of them too, largely because of the barrier to entry The barrier to entry on maintaining a project like Node is large enough...my guess that nothing useful in terms of code or concepts will come from this fork. Only screams and tantrums.
  - curtisblaine 9y ago
    That's why I think entering development should be harder. This "everyone can code" trend only resulted in worse job candidates and a lot of people doing politics instead of coding.
    - anotherbrownguy 9y ago
      I think that is wrong way to think about it. If, say, we do enforce some "barrier to entry", it would probably be some education and certification to be eligible for software development. The SJWs will make sure that they will be prioritized to be eligible for those certificates, even if it means to change the eligibility criteria to do so. And then they can basically use it to kick everyone out of software development, except for SJWs. I think we should keep it as it is and wait it out. They will find something else in a couple of years and move on.
      - curtisblaine 9y ago
        I enforce a "barrier to entry" myself when I interview someone though. If they're less than highly competent, I don't allow them to join the company I'm interviewing for. Others have this mentality of "letting everyone in, we'll train them later", especially if doing so serves other (non-technical) political or social agendas.
tuananh 9y ago
If we applied this CoC to Linux, Linus is probably long gone by now.
- thrillgore 9y ago
  There was a CoC on Drupal and surprisingly it wasn't until a few months ago it became a serious issue. Sometimes people can put the smarm aside and be legitimately helpful.
ChrisRR 9y ago
What is it about javascript that seems to draw the SJWs like no other language?
- will_crusher 9y ago
  Its popular, therefore a lot more public, is my guess. Its also pretty easy to pick up for a 'first programming language' so it tends to attract SJW-types.
- curtisblaine 9y ago
  They mainly do front-end because they're artsy types.
Khaine 9y ago
I'm sick of all this drama that people create around this bullshit around wrongthink and the like. Didn't they ever learn as kids sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me? Surely, in OSS tons of people are going to have different opinions about many things, as long as they are respectful who cares what they think? Seriously some people in this world need to eat a bag of concrete and harden the fuck up.
- mdekkers 9y ago
  ooh, are you saying that random people don't have a right to feel safe when voluntarily interacting with others online? Get ready for the angry hordes....
  - Khaine 9y ago
    People shouldn't be harassed online, but they should be open to having their ideas, thoughts and beliefs challenged in a respectful way.
    - mdekkers 9y ago
      People shouldn't be harassed online, but they should be open to having their ideas, thoughts and beliefs challenged in a respectful way. My point was based on sarcasm :) Reading all the noise on GH yesterday, those most vocal in having this guy kicked out are also screaming loudest about the "need to feel safe" - for me, this usually induces a gag reflex: - "I am going to find where you live and do something nasty to you" <-- threat to safety - "I am not sure about the value of a CoC" <-- not a threat to safety In my personal view, all these fucking "name and shame" SJW's that sit on their high fucking horses judging people are a shameless pack of vicious fucking bullies, shrouded in virtue-signalling. If somebody goes around in projects making threats or being grossly offensive in a general sense of the word, by all means address the situation. However, this situation - like countless others - is simply a concerted bullying effort. I am not involved in node.js in any way, and stay very, very, fucking far away from any kind of open source participation after going through something similar with Sun and OpenOffice.org many years ago but this kind of bullshit makes me rage.
dmpk2k 9y ago
Of course the SJW-infested npm inc folks are frothing at the bit for this fork. Instead of doing their jobs and keeping npm stable.
pier25 9y ago
The more I code, the more I appreciate projects and languages that are not based on a democratic committee and have a consistent unique single minded vision. I'd rather stick to a language/framework that aligns with my own preferences, than stick to one that tries to please to a large group of people. I feel this is the major problem with Javascript, Node, etc.
- tomxor 9y ago
  I totally agree with this... A unified vision is important in a project, that's not to say that there is a single correct way of writing something, but that for consistency and sanity each way should be unified. The democracy exists through consumption by end users and layers in between... no internal conflicts, choice and democracy for the consumer, how is that a bad model.
- curtisblaine 9y ago
  People using node.js and not wanting this kind of bullshit should go on github and open an issue to remove the CoC. I would back it up for sure.
  - pier25 9y ago
    The code of conduct is unrelated to what I'm talking about. I'm criticising design by committee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee
intellix 9y ago
Open a perfectly fine PR that fixes/accomplishes something but prefix PR comment with: "Hey guys," Sit back and watch as you're bombarded with threats and comments about being pro-rape, a straight white male and the like
- GoodbyeEarl 9y ago
  I've faced this exact scenario a few months back when I asked some questions on Preact's Gitter. Pathetic. English is not even my first language, I swear I didn't know I'd be offending someone by saying "hey guys" :/
  - GenericsMotors 9y ago
    It seems that as much as Silicon Valley preaches about being inclusive, they have a strict american-centric view of absolutely everything. I'm also not a native english speaker and it feels like I'm walking on eggshells constantly.
    - shados 9y ago
      This. A million times.
    - Macha 9y ago
      Especially since in other countries, terms like guys aren't so heavily gender-specific.
- allx 9y ago
  In some languages (I'm saying about russian) there is a written rule for such statements: if just one out of the whole auditory is a guy, you must say "Hey, guys".
  - dmitrymukhin 9y ago
    can you post a link to the rule, please
rkeene2 9y ago
Node.js can, of course, merge in any changes of merit that this fork produces. Especially since the fork isn't for technical reasons they are unlikely to diverge in fundamental ways... Atleast until the fork is abandoned entirely for providing no value over node.js -- especially if they don't keep up with the upstream progress.
- 4bpp 9y ago
  And, of course, so can the fork with all changes of merit that the mainline project produces. In the end, the decision between the two will be based on momentum and politics (as in: will the fork produce enough shiny Medium posts and HN buzz to get people to switch to them, or pressure Node into backpedalling and getting rid of Vagg?), unless the fork actually can't find enough competent technical people to just keep track of and merge the mainline changes.
  - rkeene2 9y ago
    I was assuming the fork wouldn't consume code from the project that they disliked for political reasons, since it would indicate an admission that the main-project was being successful and executing with their current policies and staff.
thrillgore 9y ago
Every time I see something about NodeJS, an image of a flaming dumpster overflowing with left-padded trash comes to mind. I've never seen a technology deep sixed not by its technology, but by its politics and ideology.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
hungerstrike 9y ago
Oh good, I'm glad these SJWs won't be involved in Node.js anymore. Thanks!
- TG94 9y ago
  Amen
joepie91_ 9y ago
This is probably the best possible course of action at this stage, even if I'm extremely skeptical about the longevity of the fork. The ideal scenario is to compartmentalize people who can't get along, like you would in a workplace - having two separate forks that absorb each other's changes is not too far off from that. There's another reason too; there's a theory going around that there's a sizable pool of potential competent contributors who are currently staying away from the Node.js project (and other projects) because they feel excluded (and this is commonly used as an argument as to why policies need to be changed). This fork is going to show whether that group of people really exists; if it does, then the fork will thrive, but if it does not, then it will die. I don't think there's much to do about this now other than wait and see it play out. The results of this fork will become obvious soon enough, and it seems that this at least will get everybody off each other's backs for a while. EDIT: Also, let's dial down the vitriol in this thread a little. There's no point in getting outraged over something that'll resolve itself.
kekus_maxima 9y ago
Why not Aye.js? IYKWIM
liming91 9y ago
Honestly I hate being full stack JS sometimes. Usually at least with Node lots of the green-haired retards stay away.
tuananh 9y ago
> Humans are more important than APIs and Benchmarks. https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/zkat/values/VALUES.md https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/zkat/values/VALUES.md
aquaflux 9y ago
Newest development: https://github.com/nodejs/board/issues/67 https://github.com/nodejs/board/issues/67 "We don't like the outcome, so we have to change the rules." Please note that @ag_dubs that started the shit stirring after Rod's post sits on that board and was part of that decision. Still we don't know what Rod did to her in the first place.
lavamantis 9y ago
Specific issues causing Ayo's creation: https://thenewstack.io/node-js-forked-complaints-repeated-harassment/ https://thenewstack.io/node-js-forked-complaints-repeated-ha...
quxbar 9y ago
I have yet to find any good reason for this fork, but I wish the forkers all the best. If they can actually make something better, I'm sure we'll switch. Until then I see no reason to not support Node.
styfle 9y ago
rvagg responds: https://github.com/nodejs/CTC/issues/165#issuecomment-324798494 https://github.com/nodejs/CTC/issues/165#issuecomment-324798...

101 points by akras14 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Since the comments say this is probably due to political reasons, I feel like this fork would mean a lot more if it included contributions that were rejected by nodejs as well as a communitity of contributors to keep this fork active.

quickthrower2 9y ago

Aye! Oh!

gardnr 9y ago
Ever since SCSI I can't say that anyone will have success trying to encourage people to pronounce their project names in a certain way. Good luck to them though and anything that improves the node space is welcome in my book. Forks included.
- gardnr 9y ago
  Relevant wikipedia article: > Almost a full day was devoted to agreeing to name the standard "Small Computer System Interface", which Boucher intended to be pronounced "sexy", but ENDL's Dal Allan pronounced the new acronym as "scuzzy" and that stuck. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI
  - thrillgore 9y ago
    Scuzzy has more character to it. I'll never pronounce GIF as JIF though.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

tedivm 9y ago

For those asking what the reason of the fork is it looks like it has something to do with a code of conduct violation by one of the node developers that the steering committee voted to ignore. I have no idea what the story behind it as it doesn't seem like anyone has actually published the full story. Regardless of the reason, this seems like a premature announcement of the project. There isn't a roadmap, list of distinguishing features, or the guiding principles. More information is definitly needed here.

Pyxl101 9y ago
Yes. Anyone can "fork" any code for any time and reason. Anyone can announce that they're doing it. What makes this newsworthy? Is it a credible fork? What's the reason for the fork? Who is contributing? > Current Project Team Members > To be written Hmmm.

fvdessen 9y ago

What is the reason for the fork ?

wmichelin 9y ago
Seems to be disagreement on either architecture, failure to implement specific features or fix specific bugs, and angers over the policies of the node.js maintainers.
gizmo686 9y ago
From the issues, it sounds like there is some sort of political dispute. https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/4 https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/4
marksomnian 9y ago
From an issue: > I'd be open to re-merging if and when the problems plaguing Node.js are resolved. Problematic people removed; use of "policy" as an excuse ended; power structures reorganized to emphasize community over tech. So far though it seems like there's little desire to fix these problems from those with the power to do so.
akras14 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139
hasenj 9y ago
SJW rage, it seems.
starkruzr 9y ago
SJW rage is good, actually.

ilaksh 9y ago

What's the reason they forked/main difference from Node.js?

akras14 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139
marksomnian 9y ago
From an issue: > I'd be open to re-merging if and when the problems plaguing Node.js are resolved. Problematic people removed; use of "policy" as an excuse ended; power structures reorganized to emphasize community over tech. So far though it seems like there's little desire to fix these problems from those with the power to do so.
- geldan 9y ago
  Silly node, emphasizing tech.
  - exdaedalus 9y ago
    Tech is nothing without people behind it. I don't think it's stupid to take a few moments to think about whether driving away some members of the contributing community away is worth it for what was said.
- mdekkers 9y ago
  emphasize community over tech ...speechless. client: Why is there only clear text and flashing ads on my screen? developer: Oh, yes - we implemented the new ayo libraries! client: This looks like shit. Give me my site back! developer: but, you don't understand! The new libraries are great, they emphasize community over tech! client: [......] client: [calls her P.A.] Richard, go find me a new tech team.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

nmbr213 9y ago

What, again?

egeozcan 9y ago
If it ends up having a similar impact like IO.js, I would say, why not. Fork it every other month, I wouldn't care. If this is less "technical issues need to be resolved and we need to be agile" and more "I hate the other person so I won't work with him/her" though, then it would just cause problems all around the community.
weiyi 9y ago
Why, again?

akras14 9y ago

Reasons for fork: "Repeated ToC violations by an authority figure went unaddressed." https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096 https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096 Not sure what ToC is, but the alleged violations appear to be of Code of Conduct. Alleged violations are described here: https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 Most links are private, but here are the public ones: https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 https://twitter.com/captainsafia/status/887782785221615618 https://twitter.com/captainsafia/status/887782785221615618 https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049 https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049

kowdermeister 9y ago
Who are they talking about?
- akras14 9y ago
  Rod Vagg https://twitter.com/rvagg https://twitter.com/rvagg https://github.com/rvagg https://github.com/rvagg
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
aaron-lebo 9y ago
Going through those links it's still not obvious what's happening. @rvagg has some kind of leadership position, has some strong opinions about codes of conduct (not the only one), and they're forking the project for that? What?
- akras14 9y ago
  It is unclear. Seemed like he has repeatedly used a language that some community members found offensive. His stance against Code of Conduct, as evident by this Tweet: https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 and follow up comments were considered inappropriate by some. Even more details here: https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 """ The TSC members were not able to reach a natural consensus on the steps forward so a vote was called on two specific questions: (A) Should Rod be removed from the TSC: Yes or No (B) Should Rod be asked to voluntarily resign from the TSC: Yes or No There are 13 members of the TSC. 10 members voted, two abstained, and Rod did not participate. The vote came down 60% against removing Rod from the TSC and 60% against asking Rod to voluntarily resign. """

deft 9y ago

This literally already happened once over a minor argument and a week later they got back together. Why...?

anilgulecha 9y ago

The way this fork has been presented clearly indicates this fork has no future. If you indeed have problems with the way nodejs is run, the first thing you do with a fork is present it upfront in your fork, with some idea on how you're going to go forward. All you see here is one issue potentially discussing some bad policies or people. wishy washy. And discussion in another thread is almost satirical -- discussing "lifetime" of a benevolent dictator "for life". [1] There's no clear leadership or goals for this fork. [1] https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/2 https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/2

kybernetikos 9y ago

The previous fork was successful because a lot of the developers went with the fork and it was fulfilling an unserviced need in the community for a node built on newer versions of v8. Does anyone know if this fork has much of a chance of survival?

LoSboccacc 9y ago
didn't follow the node development closely, what was this fork?
- photonios 9y ago
  It was called io.js.
  - zeronight 9y ago
    And this one is pronounced the same way? That won't be confusing in conversation.
- pfranz 9y ago
  io.js https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node.js#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node.js#History
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  The previous fork was io.js, it's contributions have now been brought back under the Node.js umbrella. This new fork is almost a non-story by comparison, if it gets even a minor level of traction amongst developers I'll be surprised. Even the repo creator has half-arsed the readme.
- naibafo 9y ago
  io.js forked 2014, planning to keep io.js up-to-date with the V8 engine. Node.js foundation was later founded and later in 2015 io.js and node.js merged into Node 4.0.
spartanatreyu 9y ago

convery 9y ago

Line that stood out to me: "Rod retweeted in support of an inflammatory anti-Code-of-Conduct article" If you're not 100% onboard with the politics, you're a horrible person.

raverbashing 9y ago
While I agree with this specific point, it seems that was the "least worse" of that person's actions.
- fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
  What where his really bad actions? Can't find much info.
  - Nimelrian 9y ago
    Using non-gender-neutral pronouns and assumptions of gender, according to a post on golem.de https://forum.golem.de/kommentare/opensource/open-source-node.js-fuehrung-zerstreitet-sich-ueber-code-of-conduct/der-konkrete-verstoss/111590,4885673,4885839,read.html https://forum.golem.de/kommentare/opensource/open-source-nod...
    - fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
      Thanks
- GenericsMotors 9y ago
  Could you please provide examples?
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139

ishtu 9y ago

Make sure you use proper [1] CoC next time you start new project. Proper as in not easy to abuse for political reason or just because some SJW decided you are wrong. [1] https://github.com/fantasylandinst/fcop https://github.com/fantasylandinst/fcop

hasenj 9y ago

Sounds like BS. Possibly relevant: Eric S. Raymond: Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs (2015) http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918

whipoodle 9y ago
Oh brother.
pgo 9y ago
The awesome-django issue here is full of BS. https://archive.is/dgilk https://archive.is/dgilk
tomjakubowski 9y ago
Good christ, I can't believe I'm responding to an ESR blog post, but this "djangoconcardiff" account joined Github [1] the same day every comment in that thread was posted… which was, by the way, months after the DjangoCon in Cardiff wrapped up. How do people not see that whole incident as the bad-faith troll that it clearly is? [1]: https://archive.is/UDFZt#selection-193.0-193.16 https://archive.is/UDFZt#selection-193.0-193.16
- hasenj 9y ago
  It clearly is bad-faith. Is it just a random troll? Not likely, since there are several other similar incidents.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dang 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139 and marked it off-topic.

bluepnume 9y ago

I've been clicking around on twitter and github for five minutes and there seems to be zero specifics about what actually happened. What's with the secrecy? Not saying this is a non-issue, but the best way to present your issue as a non-issue is to be this vague about what you're complaining about.

tree_of_item 9y ago

Are they seriously forking the project because they don't like one person involved in it?

SolarNet 9y ago
And that the rest of the community is supporting his alleged abusiveness (e.g. by voting to keep him on board). It's not just because they dislike him, it's because the community in general seems fine with his kind of behavior. Not that I am supporting it, just explaining why in their view this is bigger than just him.

kolme 9y ago

They're flipping out because of a tweet, and all it had was a link to an article against codes of conduct. "Additionally he discussed private information from the moderation repo in the public thread, which is explicitly against he moderation policy". I don't like such secrecy. What's going on in there? Wasn't community so important, why can't we know? So what if that guy doesn't like CoCs? It is fine for people to have other opinions. This is another case of people over reacting over small stuff like it happened with Brendan Eich or Douglas Crockford. Oh gee, some people need to chill out.

anfedorov 9y ago
While I definitely see where you are coming from, simplifying people's emotional reactions to things to "some people need to chill out" belittles their feelings in a way that isn't helpful. We can support folks who are being attacked unfairly (as @rvagg appears to be from a cursory review of the "evidence" against him) without belittling those who feel maligned.
- mlsarecmg 9y ago
  Until you realize the same people that are crying out now have been doing this before. Kas Perch, one of the agitators, https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049 https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049 used the same tactic against Crockford last year (Nodevember conf), also without any concrete evidence other than "he made me feel bad." If you go through regular tweets of the other heckers like Kat, https://twitter.com/maybekatz/status/900414216888139776 https://twitter.com/maybekatz/status/900414216888139776 they're breaking their own CoC daily, but that's apparently fine because hating on white/men/straight/christian is considered PC. Why do you give these sick people lee way is beyond me. They are bullies and they should be recognized as such.
  - _Marak_ 9y ago
    > They are bullies and they should be recognized as such. 100% agree. I've had to previously block both of these users you mentioned for harassment over Twitter. It got to the point where one of them started taking out of context screenshots of my Twitter stream and attempting to rally other SJW twitter users to send harassing messages to me. I did my own research weeks ago and found that Rod didn't do anything wrong. If anyone finds evidence to the contrary, please let me know.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

weitzj 9y ago

Blog post: https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-stepping-down-from-the-nodejs-tsc-3df37c6ccbae https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-s...

caffed 9y ago

He seems like a candidate for being a douchey provocateur. Tech-libertarian too? It's hard enough having the JS community taken seriously with the zeitgeist framework changing too quickly.

riston 9y ago

We are fixing too many problems by forking, please stop!

Grue3 9y ago

The issues page says it all: https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues . This is not a software project. There will be no actual code written.

mdekkers 9y ago
Indeed. I had a look at all the brouhaha on the node.js github yesterday (I love me some open-source soap-opera drama, especially when it involves non or barely-coding SJW's - it's my guilty pleasure) and had a quick look at the commit histories of the most vocal "This guy has to go!!!1!" proponents - the code-to-noise ratio is unsurprisingly low.

cycomachead 9y ago

Here we go again... ? Then again, this doesn't seem anywhere near as crazy as the IO.js days.

readittwice 9y ago

First: I like the name! That said, it is a bit unfortunate to fork or at least to try to fork a project like Node.js over these reasons. Although it is quite likely that the fork was mainly created to pressure the Node-devs to remove rvagg from the project after all. What puzzles me: Even if we agree that rvagg violated the Code of Conduct, I am not sure that this should be enough to remove him from the TSC (Technical Steering Committee). Here are the alleged violations, so that you can decide for yourself: https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212.

drspacemonkey 9y ago
"Rod should have predicted the kind of response this tweet received" I was on the fence until I hit that part. The tacit admission that they're holding him responsible for what other people are saying on Twitter is all I need to know. They wanna feel like righteous warriors defeating evil.
- smsm42 9y ago
  Heads I win, tails you lose situation. If you say something uncivil, you are guilty. If you are perfectly reasonable and somebody trolls and curses you out on twitter, you are still guilty, because you "should have predicted" they'd do that if you disagree with them.

stesch 9y ago

Would you rather use good code by a shitty person or shitty code by a good person?

vermontdevil 9y ago
Good code. Shitty people are replaceable. Good code are priceless.
curtisblaine 9y ago
Good code from a shitty person every time.
amiga-workbench 9y ago
A person's politics are immaterial to the outcome.
YeOakAye 9y ago
If reiserfs was the best fs around, you bet I'd still be using it.

uitgewis 9y ago

Also related to this: https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-stepping-down-from-the-nodejs-tsc-3df37c6ccbae https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-s...

anotherbrownguy 9y ago

Brace yourself. SJWs are coming after software projects this year.

amiga-workbench 9y ago
I'm pleasantly surprised PHP has remained largely SJW free, probably because it's not trendy. I imagine microcontroller software development stays free of them too, largely because of the barrier to entry.
- GenericsMotors 9y ago
  > I imagine microcontroller software development stays free of them too, largely because of the barrier to entry The barrier to entry on maintaining a project like Node is large enough...my guess that nothing useful in terms of code or concepts will come from this fork. Only screams and tantrums.
- curtisblaine 9y ago
  That's why I think entering development should be harder. This "everyone can code" trend only resulted in worse job candidates and a lot of people doing politics instead of coding.
  - anotherbrownguy 9y ago
    I think that is wrong way to think about it. If, say, we do enforce some "barrier to entry", it would probably be some education and certification to be eligible for software development. The SJWs will make sure that they will be prioritized to be eligible for those certificates, even if it means to change the eligibility criteria to do so. And then they can basically use it to kick everyone out of software development, except for SJWs. I think we should keep it as it is and wait it out. They will find something else in a couple of years and move on.
    - curtisblaine 9y ago
      I enforce a "barrier to entry" myself when I interview someone though. If they're less than highly competent, I don't allow them to join the company I'm interviewing for. Others have this mentality of "letting everyone in, we'll train them later", especially if doing so serves other (non-technical) political or social agendas.

tuananh 9y ago

If we applied this CoC to Linux, Linus is probably long gone by now.

thrillgore 9y ago
There was a CoC on Drupal and surprisingly it wasn't until a few months ago it became a serious issue. Sometimes people can put the smarm aside and be legitimately helpful.

ChrisRR 9y ago

What is it about javascript that seems to draw the SJWs like no other language?

will_crusher 9y ago
Its popular, therefore a lot more public, is my guess. Its also pretty easy to pick up for a 'first programming language' so it tends to attract SJW-types.
curtisblaine 9y ago
They mainly do front-end because they're artsy types.

Khaine 9y ago

I'm sick of all this drama that people create around this bullshit around wrongthink and the like. Didn't they ever learn as kids sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me? Surely, in OSS tons of people are going to have different opinions about many things, as long as they are respectful who cares what they think? Seriously some people in this world need to eat a bag of concrete and harden the fuck up.

mdekkers 9y ago
ooh, are you saying that random people don't have a right to feel safe when voluntarily interacting with others online? Get ready for the angry hordes....
- Khaine 9y ago
  People shouldn't be harassed online, but they should be open to having their ideas, thoughts and beliefs challenged in a respectful way.
  - mdekkers 9y ago
    People shouldn't be harassed online, but they should be open to having their ideas, thoughts and beliefs challenged in a respectful way. My point was based on sarcasm :) Reading all the noise on GH yesterday, those most vocal in having this guy kicked out are also screaming loudest about the "need to feel safe" - for me, this usually induces a gag reflex: - "I am going to find where you live and do something nasty to you" <-- threat to safety - "I am not sure about the value of a CoC" <-- not a threat to safety In my personal view, all these fucking "name and shame" SJW's that sit on their high fucking horses judging people are a shameless pack of vicious fucking bullies, shrouded in virtue-signalling. If somebody goes around in projects making threats or being grossly offensive in a general sense of the word, by all means address the situation. However, this situation - like countless others - is simply a concerted bullying effort. I am not involved in node.js in any way, and stay very, very, fucking far away from any kind of open source participation after going through something similar with Sun and OpenOffice.org many years ago but this kind of bullshit makes me rage.

dmpk2k 9y ago

Of course the SJW-infested npm inc folks are frothing at the bit for this fork. Instead of doing their jobs and keeping npm stable.

pier25 9y ago

The more I code, the more I appreciate projects and languages that are not based on a democratic committee and have a consistent unique single minded vision. I'd rather stick to a language/framework that aligns with my own preferences, than stick to one that tries to please to a large group of people. I feel this is the major problem with Javascript, Node, etc.

tomxor 9y ago
I totally agree with this... A unified vision is important in a project, that's not to say that there is a single correct way of writing something, but that for consistency and sanity each way should be unified. The democracy exists through consumption by end users and layers in between... no internal conflicts, choice and democracy for the consumer, how is that a bad model.
curtisblaine 9y ago
People using node.js and not wanting this kind of bullshit should go on github and open an issue to remove the CoC. I would back it up for sure.
- pier25 9y ago
  The code of conduct is unrelated to what I'm talking about. I'm criticising design by committee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

intellix 9y ago

Open a perfectly fine PR that fixes/accomplishes something but prefix PR comment with: "Hey guys," Sit back and watch as you're bombarded with threats and comments about being pro-rape, a straight white male and the like

GoodbyeEarl 9y ago
I've faced this exact scenario a few months back when I asked some questions on Preact's Gitter. Pathetic. English is not even my first language, I swear I didn't know I'd be offending someone by saying "hey guys" :/
- GenericsMotors 9y ago
  It seems that as much as Silicon Valley preaches about being inclusive, they have a strict american-centric view of absolutely everything. I'm also not a native english speaker and it feels like I'm walking on eggshells constantly.
  - shados 9y ago
    This. A million times.
  - Macha 9y ago
    Especially since in other countries, terms like guys aren't so heavily gender-specific.
allx 9y ago
In some languages (I'm saying about russian) there is a written rule for such statements: if just one out of the whole auditory is a guy, you must say "Hey, guys".
- dmitrymukhin 9y ago
  can you post a link to the rule, please

rkeene2 9y ago

Node.js can, of course, merge in any changes of merit that this fork produces. Especially since the fork isn't for technical reasons they are unlikely to diverge in fundamental ways... Atleast until the fork is abandoned entirely for providing no value over node.js -- especially if they don't keep up with the upstream progress.

4bpp 9y ago
And, of course, so can the fork with all changes of merit that the mainline project produces. In the end, the decision between the two will be based on momentum and politics (as in: will the fork produce enough shiny Medium posts and HN buzz to get people to switch to them, or pressure Node into backpedalling and getting rid of Vagg?), unless the fork actually can't find enough competent technical people to just keep track of and merge the mainline changes.
- rkeene2 9y ago
  I was assuming the fork wouldn't consume code from the project that they disliked for political reasons, since it would indicate an admission that the main-project was being successful and executing with their current policies and staff.

thrillgore 9y ago

Every time I see something about NodeJS, an image of a flaming dumpster overflowing with left-padded trash comes to mind. I've never seen a technology deep sixed not by its technology, but by its politics and ideology.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

hungerstrike 9y ago

Oh good, I'm glad these SJWs won't be involved in Node.js anymore. Thanks!

TG94 9y ago
Amen

joepie91_ 9y ago

This is probably the best possible course of action at this stage, even if I'm extremely skeptical about the longevity of the fork. The ideal scenario is to compartmentalize people who can't get along, like you would in a workplace - having two separate forks that absorb each other's changes is not too far off from that. There's another reason too; there's a theory going around that there's a sizable pool of potential competent contributors who are currently staying away from the Node.js project (and other projects) because they feel excluded (and this is commonly used as an argument as to why policies need to be changed). This fork is going to show whether that group of people really exists; if it does, then the fork will thrive, but if it does not, then it will die. I don't think there's much to do about this now other than wait and see it play out. The results of this fork will become obvious soon enough, and it seems that this at least will get everybody off each other's backs for a while. EDIT: Also, let's dial down the vitriol in this thread a little. There's no point in getting outraged over something that'll resolve itself.

kekus_maxima 9y ago

Why not Aye.js? IYKWIM

liming91 9y ago

Honestly I hate being full stack JS sometimes. Usually at least with Node lots of the green-haired retards stay away.

tuananh 9y ago

> Humans are more important than APIs and Benchmarks. https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/zkat/values/VALUES.md https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/zkat/values/VALUES.md

aquaflux 9y ago

Newest development: https://github.com/nodejs/board/issues/67 https://github.com/nodejs/board/issues/67 "We don't like the outcome, so we have to change the rules." Please note that @ag_dubs that started the shit stirring after Rod's post sits on that board and was part of that decision. Still we don't know what Rod did to her in the first place.

lavamantis 9y ago

Specific issues causing Ayo's creation: https://thenewstack.io/node-js-forked-complaints-repeated-harassment/ https://thenewstack.io/node-js-forked-complaints-repeated-ha...

quxbar 9y ago

I have yet to find any good reason for this fork, but I wish the forkers all the best. If they can actually make something better, I'm sure we'll switch. Until then I see no reason to not support Node.

styfle 9y ago

rvagg responds: https://github.com/nodejs/CTC/issues/165#issuecomment-324798494 https://github.com/nodejs/CTC/issues/165#issuecomment-324798...