12 ms·

The Icewind Dale Problem

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
awesomepantsm 9y ago
I don't really get why you wouldn't approach it as a dynamic programming question. The size of the table would only be about ~38 rows, according to the description, and ~38 columns. If you were given the probabilities of each sum (of which I'm sure is available) you could do it by hand, likely in an excel sheet.
Negative1 9y ago
I was hoping this was going to talk about the problem that Beamdog ran into 'enhancing' Icewind Dale 2. They can't find the source code and doing the reverse engineering to make improvements was deemed too costly; http://www.pcgamer.com/icewind-dale-2-cant-be-enhanced-because-the-source-code-is-lost/ http://www.pcgamer.com/icewind-dale-2-cant-be-enhanced-becau... As far as this article; not my cup of tea but the author seems to have put a lot of time into it. If you like data science, dive on in.
- beloch 9y ago
  I was a huge fan of the Baldur's Gate games back in the day, but never got around to playing the IWD series, which were based on Bioware's infinity engine. I played the enhanced version of IWD1 not too long ago and, of course, had to play IWD2 to satisfy my completionist OCD, even though that meant a little bit more fiddling to get it to work properly. Verdict: Go play a newer RPG like Pillars of Eternity instead. While I'm sure some people have very fond memories of the IWD series, it has not aged well. The story isn't particularly good, and IWD2 rehashes a little too much of IWD1 for comfort. It is undoubtedly possible to give IWD2 the enhanced version treatment. It's "too costly" because IWD2 just isn't very good, and likely wouldn't have strong sales.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - drchickensalad 9y ago
    I also recommend Divinity: Original Sin
- grawlinson 9y ago
  >They can't find the source code and doing the reverse engineering to make improvements was deemed too costly The reverse engineering will be done eventually, by fans that love the game. It's been done for other games (Morrowind, Diablo II, Grand Theft Auto 3, etc)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
StanislavPetrov 9y ago
Alternate Reality, a cult classic game from the 1980s by Philip Price featured a character creation process similar to the one described in this article (it also contained many other game features well ahead of its time). A rotating series of numbers would scroll through each stat box, with the player having to hit the space bar to freeze the numbers and select their stats. However, the stats slowly degraded the longer the player waited and watch them scroll past. Interesting to see this issue examined in depth over 30 years later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_(series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_(series)
- Nr7 9y ago
  Captive, another cult classic from early 90s used another novel method of calculating the stats for the characters. The game used an algorithm that determined the stats based on the name the player gave to each character. I even remember seeing some recommended names on the cheats & tips sections of some computer games magazines back in the day.
  - seanp2k2 9y ago
    My name is 00000000 AKA death to your algorithm :) (or: hope you hash it first)
erikb 9y ago
It seems the article talks about anything but the topic it is trying to talk about. What is the conclusion? When to stop? What do the axis in the diagrams mean? I read it like 1.5 times and still don't get any result from it.
- masklinn 9y ago
  It's sad that the plots are mostly unlabelled because that aside they're fairly clear: On the color maps, vertical is the score you got on your last roll (sum of all attributes), horizontal is the index of the current roll, color is the chance of getting a better roll. There is no "hard line" for when to stop because it depends on how risk-averse you are, and compounding the lack of labelling the labelling of color maps 3 and 4 is the opposite of what it shows: it's how the map changes when you lower risk averseness (increase risk seeking) by increasing probability thresholds compared to map 2.
moomin 9y ago
Or, you know, you could just press Ctrl-8
Nr7 9y ago
The article briefly mentioned that different stats are useful for different character classes but didn't really take that into account in the model. For example if a barbarian get really high rolls for all stats except strength is it actually a really a good roll for that character or should you consider re-rolling? Edit: Oops, I completely forgot about the ability to reassign points between stats. Thanks to batiudrami & beloch for pointing that out. As an interesting side note: An older (A)D&D game series, Eye of the Beholder, allowed you to modify the stats any way you wanted after rolling, which meant you could just set all stats to max if you wished. I've read from somewhere that this was done so players could "import" their pen & paper RPG characters with the correct stats points into the game. Dunno if that's true though.
- beloch 9y ago
  I think it was possible to assign the points in a roll to whatever stats you wanted, so a high total was basically all that mattered. If memory serves 18 str did have a random modifier (e.g. 18/50) so that 18 wasn't equal for all rolls. However it probably didn't take long to find a strength boosting item, and 19 str was the same regardless of the modifier you had at 18.
- batiudrami 9y ago
  It has a "point buy" system where you can add and subtract points, so only the total is really useful. Different classes also have different minimum stats - so the calculation is actually rolling 4d6, excluding the lowest, and then rounding up to the minimum if necessary. This means multi-class characters (who might have minimum of 13 in two stats instead of the usual 9), or odd classes such as Paladin who have a minimum 17 charisma end up with much higher average totals than other classes. It's an entirely broken system, designed for pen and paper D&D where you roll your stats and then choose your class based on what you get, adjusted for video game players who prefer to choose their class first.
dri_ft 9y ago
I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all in one go, right at the start of the game, before you even get to have any fun."
- dozzie 9y ago
  Note that it's not because the game was designed this way, but because the Dungeons and Dragons system was designed this way. It's not optimized for first-time and impatient computer players, but for roleplayers.
  - rodgerd 9y ago
    It's not really inherint to role players. Plenty of popular RPGs had radically different (and often non-chance based) character generation systems, ranging from the sublime (doling out combinations from a pool and trading strengths and weaknesses, like GURPS and Shadowrun) to the ridiculous (Traveller, where your character can die before the start of the game).
    - Semaphor 9y ago
      To be fair, in some games, Hackmaster for example, your character dying during char creation can give benefits to your next character. But then that game also had you roll a D10,000 for critical hits ;)
  - ggggtez 9y ago
    It's not really a fair defence, because D&D also had rules for point buy (limited points to add to stats). They just choose not to use it. Planescape, from the same era, used point buy instead of random rolls. (Which fixes the pointless rerolling until you get stats you want, but not the part about making important decisions before the game starts)
honestoHeminway 9y ago
Roleplaying in my eyes suffered from this arbitrary stats rolling. It could have greatly gained, if for every usefull exp on level up - your character would have to take on some psychological malus. +1 on Dexterity? Congratulations, you are now a cleptomanic. +2 on Intelligence? Obsessive compulsive mage. +1 Strength. Great Scotts, youre an alcoholic. +2 Wisdom? Post Traumatic Stress Syndrom. It would have got the game so much more interesting. People who would have to play actual characters, instead of walking, golden statues.
- chokma 9y ago
  Something like that is used in The Dark Eye and also in Ars Magica. For every virtue or advantage your character has, you should also select a flaw. This makes for some interesting and quirky characters. Some flaws are "easier" to manage than others (having large debts is a good story hook and not that problematic for adventurers, I think. A character having memory issues however is not easily compensated, but may make for interesting role playing).
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  That works better in real life, doesn't it? It's harder to have a computer game enforce obsessive compulsion, or alcoholism, or kleptomania.
- batiudrami 9y ago
  You might find upcoming RPG No Truce With The Furies[1] interesting. From a developer post[2]: "For the real lowdown — instead of telling you how the Attributes help — let me tell you how they make things worse. INTELLECT A high Intellect makes you overly confident – a cocksure intellectual. You’re vulnerable to flattery, and easily lose yourself in details. (The game becomes longer). While having a low Intellect makes you dim and superficial, prone to superstition and being plain wrong. PSYCHE A high Psyche comes with emotional turmoil – an unstable psychophant. Great willpower clashing with wild imagination. You may even lose your mind. While a low Psyche makes you uninspiring, inept at influencing people. Unsavoury things come out of your mouth. PHYSIQUE Okay, you’re strong but so is your death drive – a mad man and a psycho killer. A high Physique needs to be tested, needs addiction, sex and physical confrontation. You lose your shit over small things. While being un-physical means vulnerable, un-streetwise. Lacking in animal cool. MOTORICS A Motoric character is too high strung – a bit of a cokehead. A quicksilver superdetective focusing fast and then reacting (too) sharply. While being low on Motoric means you’re locked into yourself. The world has trouble finding you. You’re clumsy and slow." [1] http://zaumstudio.com/ http://zaumstudio.com/ [2] http://devblog.fortressoccident.com/2017/01/19/introducing-metric-arguably-worlds-simplest-role-playing-system/ http://devblog.fortressoccident.com/2017/01/19/introducing-m...
ggggtez 9y ago
There arbitrary decision that 1 reroll is worth 1 score, is not even explored. That is a big decision, as it places a cap on rerolls at around 35. It's not obvious at all.
wccrawford 9y ago
>Let's turn this system into a game. You are allowed to reroll, but everytime you do the score you get will get subtracted by one. What would be the optimal stopping strategy? If it wasn't just a thought-exercise, the answer would be: Quit the game and start over until you get a perfect roll the first time. Seriously. Games are supposed to be fun, not painful. While it might be a fun thought exercise, it's incredibly bad game design.
- jrs95 9y ago
  If you're trying to exploit the game, you should be having less fun. I played Baldur's Gate, and there were all sorts of things you could do to be stronger than you ought to be. Even without the rolling, you could level up a character several times and then restart the game with that character. I didn't do that specifically because I wanted to enjoy the game.
baldfat 9y ago
Titan Quest - Best Abilities and Stats System. Should have taken over the whole genre system wise. You all start vanilla and when you use an ability it ads xp to that ability. Melee then attack as a melee, or ranged pick up the bow and shoot. If its magic learn to pull off the right skills. It was easiest to go melee at first and magic was more difficult but then it switched mid game.
- seanp2k2 9y ago
  That's how Tales games work too (at least Tales of Berseria, I'm guessing the others follow).
  - graphitezepp 9y ago
    IIRC Tales of Symphonia stats (mostly) acted like an old school FF game of just fixed stat increase per level.
- seanalltogether 9y ago
  I always thought this would have been a cool feature for MMO's. As you reach end game you start to have more interest in trying different archetypes without having to start new characters. If warriors started using healing spells they could slowly morph into paladins. Or use daggers and turn into rogues, etc...
cantdutchthis 9y ago
hi guys, i am the guy who wrote that blogpost. glad to see you guys liked it!

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

I don't really get why you wouldn't approach it as a dynamic programming question. The size of the table would only be about ~38 rows, according to the description, and ~38 columns. If you were given the probabilities of each sum (of which I'm sure is available) you could do it by hand, likely in an excel sheet.

Negative1 9y ago

I was hoping this was going to talk about the problem that Beamdog ran into 'enhancing' Icewind Dale 2. They can't find the source code and doing the reverse engineering to make improvements was deemed too costly; http://www.pcgamer.com/icewind-dale-2-cant-be-enhanced-because-the-source-code-is-lost/ http://www.pcgamer.com/icewind-dale-2-cant-be-enhanced-becau... As far as this article; not my cup of tea but the author seems to have put a lot of time into it. If you like data science, dive on in.

beloch 9y ago
I was a huge fan of the Baldur's Gate games back in the day, but never got around to playing the IWD series, which were based on Bioware's infinity engine. I played the enhanced version of IWD1 not too long ago and, of course, had to play IWD2 to satisfy my completionist OCD, even though that meant a little bit more fiddling to get it to work properly. Verdict: Go play a newer RPG like Pillars of Eternity instead. While I'm sure some people have very fond memories of the IWD series, it has not aged well. The story isn't particularly good, and IWD2 rehashes a little too much of IWD1 for comfort. It is undoubtedly possible to give IWD2 the enhanced version treatment. It's "too costly" because IWD2 just isn't very good, and likely wouldn't have strong sales.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- drchickensalad 9y ago
  I also recommend Divinity: Original Sin
grawlinson 9y ago
>They can't find the source code and doing the reverse engineering to make improvements was deemed too costly The reverse engineering will be done eventually, by fans that love the game. It's been done for other games (Morrowind, Diablo II, Grand Theft Auto 3, etc)

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

StanislavPetrov 9y ago

Alternate Reality, a cult classic game from the 1980s by Philip Price featured a character creation process similar to the one described in this article (it also contained many other game features well ahead of its time). A rotating series of numbers would scroll through each stat box, with the player having to hit the space bar to freeze the numbers and select their stats. However, the stats slowly degraded the longer the player waited and watch them scroll past. Interesting to see this issue examined in depth over 30 years later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_(series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_(series)

Nr7 9y ago
Captive, another cult classic from early 90s used another novel method of calculating the stats for the characters. The game used an algorithm that determined the stats based on the name the player gave to each character. I even remember seeing some recommended names on the cheats & tips sections of some computer games magazines back in the day.
- seanp2k2 9y ago
  My name is 00000000 AKA death to your algorithm :) (or: hope you hash it first)

erikb 9y ago

It seems the article talks about anything but the topic it is trying to talk about. What is the conclusion? When to stop? What do the axis in the diagrams mean? I read it like 1.5 times and still don't get any result from it.

masklinn 9y ago
It's sad that the plots are mostly unlabelled because that aside they're fairly clear: On the color maps, vertical is the score you got on your last roll (sum of all attributes), horizontal is the index of the current roll, color is the chance of getting a better roll. There is no "hard line" for when to stop because it depends on how risk-averse you are, and compounding the lack of labelling the labelling of color maps 3 and 4 is the opposite of what it shows: it's how the map changes when you lower risk averseness (increase risk seeking) by increasing probability thresholds compared to map 2.

moomin 9y ago

Or, you know, you could just press Ctrl-8

Nr7 9y ago

The article briefly mentioned that different stats are useful for different character classes but didn't really take that into account in the model. For example if a barbarian get really high rolls for all stats except strength is it actually a really a good roll for that character or should you consider re-rolling? Edit: Oops, I completely forgot about the ability to reassign points between stats. Thanks to batiudrami & beloch for pointing that out. As an interesting side note: An older (A)D&D game series, Eye of the Beholder, allowed you to modify the stats any way you wanted after rolling, which meant you could just set all stats to max if you wished. I've read from somewhere that this was done so players could "import" their pen & paper RPG characters with the correct stats points into the game. Dunno if that's true though.

beloch 9y ago
I think it was possible to assign the points in a roll to whatever stats you wanted, so a high total was basically all that mattered. If memory serves 18 str did have a random modifier (e.g. 18/50) so that 18 wasn't equal for all rolls. However it probably didn't take long to find a strength boosting item, and 19 str was the same regardless of the modifier you had at 18.
batiudrami 9y ago
It has a "point buy" system where you can add and subtract points, so only the total is really useful. Different classes also have different minimum stats - so the calculation is actually rolling 4d6, excluding the lowest, and then rounding up to the minimum if necessary. This means multi-class characters (who might have minimum of 13 in two stats instead of the usual 9), or odd classes such as Paladin who have a minimum 17 charisma end up with much higher average totals than other classes. It's an entirely broken system, designed for pen and paper D&D where you roll your stats and then choose your class based on what you get, adjusted for video game players who prefer to choose their class first.

dri_ft 9y ago

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all in one go, right at the start of the game, before you even get to have any fun."

dozzie 9y ago
Note that it's not because the game was designed this way, but because the Dungeons and Dragons system was designed this way. It's not optimized for first-time and impatient computer players, but for roleplayers.
- rodgerd 9y ago
  It's not really inherint to role players. Plenty of popular RPGs had radically different (and often non-chance based) character generation systems, ranging from the sublime (doling out combinations from a pool and trading strengths and weaknesses, like GURPS and Shadowrun) to the ridiculous (Traveller, where your character can die before the start of the game).
  - Semaphor 9y ago
    To be fair, in some games, Hackmaster for example, your character dying during char creation can give benefits to your next character. But then that game also had you roll a D10,000 for critical hits ;)
- ggggtez 9y ago
  It's not really a fair defence, because D&D also had rules for point buy (limited points to add to stats). They just choose not to use it. Planescape, from the same era, used point buy instead of random rolls. (Which fixes the pointless rerolling until you get stats you want, but not the part about making important decisions before the game starts)

honestoHeminway 9y ago

Roleplaying in my eyes suffered from this arbitrary stats rolling. It could have greatly gained, if for every usefull exp on level up - your character would have to take on some psychological malus. +1 on Dexterity? Congratulations, you are now a cleptomanic. +2 on Intelligence? Obsessive compulsive mage. +1 Strength. Great Scotts, youre an alcoholic. +2 Wisdom? Post Traumatic Stress Syndrom. It would have got the game so much more interesting. People who would have to play actual characters, instead of walking, golden statues.

chokma 9y ago
Something like that is used in The Dark Eye and also in Ars Magica. For every virtue or advantage your character has, you should also select a flaw. This makes for some interesting and quirky characters. Some flaws are "easier" to manage than others (having large debts is a good story hook and not that problematic for adventurers, I think. A character having memory issues however is not easily compensated, but may make for interesting role playing).
pavel_lishin 9y ago
That works better in real life, doesn't it? It's harder to have a computer game enforce obsessive compulsion, or alcoholism, or kleptomania.
batiudrami 9y ago
You might find upcoming RPG No Truce With The Furies[1] interesting. From a developer post[2]: "For the real lowdown — instead of telling you how the Attributes help — let me tell you how they make things worse. INTELLECT A high Intellect makes you overly confident – a cocksure intellectual. You’re vulnerable to flattery, and easily lose yourself in details. (The game becomes longer). While having a low Intellect makes you dim and superficial, prone to superstition and being plain wrong. PSYCHE A high Psyche comes with emotional turmoil – an unstable psychophant. Great willpower clashing with wild imagination. You may even lose your mind. While a low Psyche makes you uninspiring, inept at influencing people. Unsavoury things come out of your mouth. PHYSIQUE Okay, you’re strong but so is your death drive – a mad man and a psycho killer. A high Physique needs to be tested, needs addiction, sex and physical confrontation. You lose your shit over small things. While being un-physical means vulnerable, un-streetwise. Lacking in animal cool. MOTORICS A Motoric character is too high strung – a bit of a cokehead. A quicksilver superdetective focusing fast and then reacting (too) sharply. While being low on Motoric means you’re locked into yourself. The world has trouble finding you. You’re clumsy and slow." [1] http://zaumstudio.com/ http://zaumstudio.com/ [2] http://devblog.fortressoccident.com/2017/01/19/introducing-metric-arguably-worlds-simplest-role-playing-system/ http://devblog.fortressoccident.com/2017/01/19/introducing-m...

ggggtez 9y ago

There arbitrary decision that 1 reroll is worth 1 score, is not even explored. That is a big decision, as it places a cap on rerolls at around 35. It's not obvious at all.

wccrawford 9y ago

>Let's turn this system into a game. You are allowed to reroll, but everytime you do the score you get will get subtracted by one. What would be the optimal stopping strategy? If it wasn't just a thought-exercise, the answer would be: Quit the game and start over until you get a perfect roll the first time. Seriously. Games are supposed to be fun, not painful. While it might be a fun thought exercise, it's incredibly bad game design.

jrs95 9y ago
If you're trying to exploit the game, you should be having less fun. I played Baldur's Gate, and there were all sorts of things you could do to be stronger than you ought to be. Even without the rolling, you could level up a character several times and then restart the game with that character. I didn't do that specifically because I wanted to enjoy the game.

baldfat 9y ago

Titan Quest - Best Abilities and Stats System. Should have taken over the whole genre system wise. You all start vanilla and when you use an ability it ads xp to that ability. Melee then attack as a melee, or ranged pick up the bow and shoot. If its magic learn to pull off the right skills. It was easiest to go melee at first and magic was more difficult but then it switched mid game.

seanp2k2 9y ago
That's how Tales games work too (at least Tales of Berseria, I'm guessing the others follow).
- graphitezepp 9y ago
  IIRC Tales of Symphonia stats (mostly) acted like an old school FF game of just fixed stat increase per level.
seanalltogether 9y ago
I always thought this would have been a cool feature for MMO's. As you reach end game you start to have more interest in trying different archetypes without having to start new characters. If warriors started using healing spells they could slowly morph into paladins. Or use daggers and turn into rogues, etc...

cantdutchthis 9y ago

hi guys, i am the guy who wrote that blogpost. glad to see you guys liked it!