5 ms·

The average used car costs $15,300? That seems pretty wild. Are the classic Porsches that sell for $10 million dragging the average up?

adventured 9y ago
No, that's about right. Take some time and go through autotrader.com. $15k isn't unusual for a used mid-value sedan with ~25,000 to ~65,000 miles. For example, look up Hyundai Sonatas, 2013, with that mile load, you'll see prices around $14,000 to $18,000. Or check out Toyota Camrys, 2012 model year. You'll typically pay around $14,000 to $16,000 to get into one with 40,000 to 60,000 miles. So that's a 5+ year old car, a mid-value sedan, with a fair bit of mileage. The average new car price is around $32,000.
- sbierwagen 9y ago
  I don't disagree that you can pay $15K for a used car, I doubt that the average price of a used car is $15K. The average price of the first 30 used cars for sale by owner on the Seattle craigslist is $5,896: https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cto https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cto Average price of the first 30 by dealer however, is $21,567: https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/ctd https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/ctd But who would be dumb enough to buy a used car from a lot?
  - aianus 9y ago
    Why is it so dumb to buy a used car off the lot? I bought an Audi off lease last year. It's still under warranty, free maintenance (until 80k km), low mileage (37k km), fully loaded with options, and I saved $20k vs a new one.
    - adventured 9y ago
      > Why is it so dumb to buy a used car off the lot? It's not. The parent doesn't appear to understand the used car market in the US. Most people are not buying their used cars for $6,000 off of craigslist, that's a good way to end up with a pile of junk. It's a bad idea to buy a mid-value or higher used car outside the CPO or remaining original warranty programs if you can help it, ideally from a dealer.
      - ams6110 9y ago
        Not my experience at all. Do a little research on which brands and models are reliable. Find a nicely maintained example of one of those offered by a private seller. It's going to be way cheaper than a dealer in my experience.
        aianus 9y ago
        Nobody buys a new car and sells it two years later with low mileage. That would be a very unusual thing to do (and tax-disadvantageous where I live). They lease it and then ownership ends up with some dealer at the end of the lease.
    - sbierwagen 9y ago
      Most used car dealers don't give you a warranty: https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/ctd/d/2015-bmw-x5-35i-awd-suv-clean/6275678930.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/ctd/d/2015-bmw-x5-35i-awd... Note the conspicious absence of the word "warranty" on this listing. If the car falls apart as you drive off the lot, you're out $35K. CPO cars have a warranty, which sharply limits your downside risk. Buying a used car from a manufacturer is a much better deal than buying it from a third party.
      - majormajor 9y ago
        Usually the factory warranty transfers on sale if the car is new enough. https://www.autotrader.com/car-tips/buying-a-car-is-the-factory-warranty-transferable-228454 https://www.autotrader.com/car-tips/buying-a-car-is-the-fact... Generally not as nice as CPO, but it's something.
      - dionidium 9y ago
        "If the car falls apart as you drive off the lot, you're out $35K." Obviously, cars rarely fall apart as you drive them off the lot. Yes, there could be unexpected expensive repairs. But there's basically no realistic scenario in which you're going to be out the entire $35k. I understand that you're exaggerating for effect, but it's this kind of thinking that convinces people to purchase expensive warranties that aren't (statistically) worth the price.
      - aianus 9y ago
        The manufacturer warranty has a mileage limit which at least in my case was 80k km (less than 60k miles); that's probably why it's missing from the listing you linked to.
  - adventured 9y ago
    > But who would be dumb enough to buy a used car from a lot? Tens of millions of people. It depends entirely on what you're buying. For example if you want to buy a certified pre-owned vehicle, you're frequently going to buy it off the lot from a dealership. The CPO programs from the major manufacturers are typically excellent. If you're buying a nice used car, with relatively low miles & a recent model year, it's more often dumb to go any other way than a reputable dealer + CPO.
  - com2kid 9y ago
    > But who would be dumb enough to buy a used car from a lot? Me, because it came with a 7 year warranty. The price was good and the dealer offers a shuttle to and from my work (or my home) when it is in for maintenance.
  - majormajor 9y ago
    Isn't looking at Craigslist selection bias around people looking to buy/sell cheaper cars without warranties? If I had a used car worth 20K still in a maintenance window I wouldn't sell it on Craigslist. Autotrader if I wanted to private-party to max my upside, dealer if I was lazy.
    - bluGill 9y ago
      Very much selection bias. Even if we add auto shopper, and the like you won't get most of the expensive cars as they are not advertised. Your 20k used car is 2-3 years old and coming off lease, or the same car as a trade in. The dealer will put it on the lot with a "just off trade" sticker and sell it. It might or might not go on Craigslist. (if it is listed the ad finishes with "and many more cars like this so some in and see") If the dealer gets too many in on trade the rest go to an auto auction. Remember, the dealer knows all the numbers that the leaser isn't told. The company who backed the lease 2-3 years ago did their best to make sure that when the car was turned in the dealer would look at the remaining value and think "profit if I buy that and sell it". The dealer is going to pay the lease company for the rest of the value of the car. If the dealer decides there isn't enough money in selling it the lease company has to send the car to an auto auction and see what price they can get. (I suspect that a lot more goes on in these cases but I don't know what)
  - frandroid 9y ago
    Some warranty/return possibility? A friend has just gone through two returns at CarMax.
  - gnicholas 9y ago
    > But who would be dumb enough to buy a used car from a lot? Someone who needs a loan? I've bought/sold several cars on Craigslist, and it's always all-cash. Perhaps it's possible to get a loan from a bank to buy a car off CL, but it's easier to do so at a dealership.
- digitalneal 9y ago
  You will get a much better idea of what real used cars cost when you look at the manheim numbers. Going to a retail website like Autotrader or cars is going to add a few grand to the price at least. Manheim is what the dealers pay at auction. True used car prices.
- sgustard 9y ago
  Each of those cars is being resold for the first time, most likely. How many times is a car sold in its lifetime? Eventually it's sold to a scrap dealer for $500, and I'd bet that transaction is not included in the 15k average. In any case, anyone considering a new car and concerned about depreciation should consider leasing instead. That way you only pay the depreciation (which you'd pay anyway) and after 3 years you have the option of buying it as a used car for the remaining cost or moving on to a new car with no hassle trying to sell it.
ktRolster 9y ago
They might be measuring the "average used car", not the "average used car for sale." So immediately after you buy the car, it becomes a used car (or maybe a year after, not clear from the article).
MrFoof 9y ago
What classic Porsche is selling for $30M? * Even Steve McQueen's 917K only sold for $14.08M the other day. * A 956 with five LeMans wins sold for $10.12M. * The L&M sponsored 917/10 sold for $5.83M. * A RS60 Spyder with an amazing pedigree sold for $5.40M. * Jerry Seinfeld's 550 Spyder sold for $5.33M. * Paul Newman's 935 sold for $4.84M. ... and the list falls from there. As usual, the most valuable Porsches have pedigree as winning race cars. Even the rarest road-going Porsches (959 Sports) I believe are all worth under $2M (save for wacky stuff like the flat-8 904), and only until recently (past 10-15 years) have Porsches really appreciated in value.
- sbierwagen 9y ago
  Amended.
- justin66 9y ago
  > A 956 with five LeMans wins sold for $10.12M I love the 956 as much as the next guy (more, even) but the only model to ever win Le Mans five times was the Audi R8, and it wasn't with the same chassis, I'm sure. Did you mean they sold a Le Mans chassis that won five races, more generally? Not trying to be a pedant, I'm honestly curious which car you're talking about. > The L&M sponsored 917/10 sold for $5.83M That's a surprisingly small figure. Which really speaks to your point, I guess.
  - MrFoof 9y ago
    You are correct. 956-003 won LeMans in '83, and won five races overall. Regardless, most "classic Porsches" sell for under $100K. As I mentioned in another comment, the bulk of what's sold are 1978 - 1993 911s. 964s trade hands around $50-65K, and SCs more around $20-35K. Yes, there's stuff outside of that (Very good 993s commanding ~$100K now, 930 Turbos definitely not cheap, all RSs definitely not cheap due to rarity, 993 GT2s very expensive as well), but the bulk of non-supercar classic Porsches are very affordable until you get into the rare top-shelf stuff or the very old: in which value is dictated by pedigree, condition and rarity. Additionally, with ~22 million used cars sold and registered in the US every year, a single 8-digit sale does not materially affect the average selling price of used cars. Never mind the fact that no used Porsche commands anywhere near $30M (and I believe only five Porsches are in the Top 100 most expensive cars sold of all time), which is where I had serious issue with the OP.
usaphp 9y ago
The number of porshes that are being sold for $14 million is a drop in the sea compared to the whole used car industry
- loeg 9y ago
  Far-over-median priced vehicles will still drag up the average.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    Yes, but... How many used cars are sold in a year? It's got to be more than a million, doesn't it? So, yes, that $15 million Porsche drives up the average price... by $15. That's not significant.
    - tmnvix 9y ago
      $15 due to a single sale seems very significant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by your reckoning just 100 super collectable sales (average $5m) could raise the overall average by over $500.
      - usaphp 9y ago
        It's still insignificant in terms of the OP comment. Also there aren't 100 cars with an average price of 5 Mln sold per year, far from it [1] 1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_cars_sold_at_auction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_cars_...
        tmnvix 9y ago
        That list shows that of the top ~20 cars sold in 2016 the average price was ~$10m.
        usaphp 9y ago
        But there are only a handful of them, which defeats the OP reasoning
unclebucknasty 9y ago
It may be because there are more people who sell their cars newer than those who wait until they're older. And from the article: >increasing share of those sales came with a lease So, those leases become late-model, low-mileage used cars for sale.
guy_c 9y ago
Need to also be careful how they've defined 'used'. Dealers will sometimes buy the cars themselves to hit sales targets set by the manufacturer. They then sell off those cars 'used'.
pantsofhonking 9y ago
Average used car selling price is completely useless. Median would be more informative.
r27d 9y ago
The article neglects to mention Obama's $3 billion dollar Cash for Clunkers program in '08 which hurt used vehicle supply.
- rconti 9y ago
  Shouldn't that have RAISED use vehicle prices? Or is that your point, that the dropoff would have been even larger without C4C?
  - aidenn0 9y ago
    If you have an outlier like that you can skew the slope greatly by where you pick your starting point. E.g. if I were to measure the drop in used-car prices from when C4C was at its peak, I would expect to see a big drop; much bigger than if I measure from just before C4C.
  - r00fus 9y ago
    Yeah, several years ago. Now it's plummeting due to a glut.
  - r27d 9y ago
    Here's a great article. https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/08/31/cash-for-clunkers-how-bad-public-policy-gets-made/LStZtMRqTNKxAc62sYP4fM/amp.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/08/31/cash-for-clun...
mrfusion 9y ago
Check out carmax sometime. 15k is way low actually.

adventured 9y ago

No, that's about right. Take some time and go through autotrader.com. $15k isn't unusual for a used mid-value sedan with ~25,000 to ~65,000 miles. For example, look up Hyundai Sonatas, 2013, with that mile load, you'll see prices around $14,000 to $18,000. Or check out Toyota Camrys, 2012 model year. You'll typically pay around $14,000 to $16,000 to get into one with 40,000 to 60,000 miles. So that's a 5+ year old car, a mid-value sedan, with a fair bit of mileage. The average new car price is around $32,000.

sbierwagen 9y ago
I don't disagree that you can pay $15K for a used car, I doubt that the average price of a used car is $15K. The average price of the first 30 used cars for sale by owner on the Seattle craigslist is $5,896: https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cto https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cto Average price of the first 30 by dealer however, is $21,567: https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/ctd https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/ctd But who would be dumb enough to buy a used car from a lot?
- aianus 9y ago
  Why is it so dumb to buy a used car off the lot? I bought an Audi off lease last year. It's still under warranty, free maintenance (until 80k km), low mileage (37k km), fully loaded with options, and I saved $20k vs a new one.
  - adventured 9y ago
    > Why is it so dumb to buy a used car off the lot? It's not. The parent doesn't appear to understand the used car market in the US. Most people are not buying their used cars for $6,000 off of craigslist, that's a good way to end up with a pile of junk. It's a bad idea to buy a mid-value or higher used car outside the CPO or remaining original warranty programs if you can help it, ideally from a dealer.
    - ams6110 9y ago
      Not my experience at all. Do a little research on which brands and models are reliable. Find a nicely maintained example of one of those offered by a private seller. It's going to be way cheaper than a dealer in my experience.
      - aianus 9y ago
        Nobody buys a new car and sells it two years later with low mileage. That would be a very unusual thing to do (and tax-disadvantageous where I live). They lease it and then ownership ends up with some dealer at the end of the lease.
  - sbierwagen 9y ago
    Most used car dealers don't give you a warranty: https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/ctd/d/2015-bmw-x5-35i-awd-suv-clean/6275678930.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/ctd/d/2015-bmw-x5-35i-awd... Note the conspicious absence of the word "warranty" on this listing. If the car falls apart as you drive off the lot, you're out $35K. CPO cars have a warranty, which sharply limits your downside risk. Buying a used car from a manufacturer is a much better deal than buying it from a third party.
    - majormajor 9y ago
      Usually the factory warranty transfers on sale if the car is new enough. https://www.autotrader.com/car-tips/buying-a-car-is-the-factory-warranty-transferable-228454 https://www.autotrader.com/car-tips/buying-a-car-is-the-fact... Generally not as nice as CPO, but it's something.
    - dionidium 9y ago
      "If the car falls apart as you drive off the lot, you're out $35K." Obviously, cars rarely fall apart as you drive them off the lot. Yes, there could be unexpected expensive repairs. But there's basically no realistic scenario in which you're going to be out the entire $35k. I understand that you're exaggerating for effect, but it's this kind of thinking that convinces people to purchase expensive warranties that aren't (statistically) worth the price.
    - aianus 9y ago
      The manufacturer warranty has a mileage limit which at least in my case was 80k km (less than 60k miles); that's probably why it's missing from the listing you linked to.
- adventured 9y ago
  > But who would be dumb enough to buy a used car from a lot? Tens of millions of people. It depends entirely on what you're buying. For example if you want to buy a certified pre-owned vehicle, you're frequently going to buy it off the lot from a dealership. The CPO programs from the major manufacturers are typically excellent. If you're buying a nice used car, with relatively low miles & a recent model year, it's more often dumb to go any other way than a reputable dealer + CPO.
- com2kid 9y ago
  > But who would be dumb enough to buy a used car from a lot? Me, because it came with a 7 year warranty. The price was good and the dealer offers a shuttle to and from my work (or my home) when it is in for maintenance.
- majormajor 9y ago
  Isn't looking at Craigslist selection bias around people looking to buy/sell cheaper cars without warranties? If I had a used car worth 20K still in a maintenance window I wouldn't sell it on Craigslist. Autotrader if I wanted to private-party to max my upside, dealer if I was lazy.
  - bluGill 9y ago
    Very much selection bias. Even if we add auto shopper, and the like you won't get most of the expensive cars as they are not advertised. Your 20k used car is 2-3 years old and coming off lease, or the same car as a trade in. The dealer will put it on the lot with a "just off trade" sticker and sell it. It might or might not go on Craigslist. (if it is listed the ad finishes with "and many more cars like this so some in and see") If the dealer gets too many in on trade the rest go to an auto auction. Remember, the dealer knows all the numbers that the leaser isn't told. The company who backed the lease 2-3 years ago did their best to make sure that when the car was turned in the dealer would look at the remaining value and think "profit if I buy that and sell it". The dealer is going to pay the lease company for the rest of the value of the car. If the dealer decides there isn't enough money in selling it the lease company has to send the car to an auto auction and see what price they can get. (I suspect that a lot more goes on in these cases but I don't know what)
- frandroid 9y ago
  Some warranty/return possibility? A friend has just gone through two returns at CarMax.
- gnicholas 9y ago
  > But who would be dumb enough to buy a used car from a lot? Someone who needs a loan? I've bought/sold several cars on Craigslist, and it's always all-cash. Perhaps it's possible to get a loan from a bank to buy a car off CL, but it's easier to do so at a dealership.
digitalneal 9y ago
You will get a much better idea of what real used cars cost when you look at the manheim numbers. Going to a retail website like Autotrader or cars is going to add a few grand to the price at least. Manheim is what the dealers pay at auction. True used car prices.
sgustard 9y ago
Each of those cars is being resold for the first time, most likely. How many times is a car sold in its lifetime? Eventually it's sold to a scrap dealer for $500, and I'd bet that transaction is not included in the 15k average. In any case, anyone considering a new car and concerned about depreciation should consider leasing instead. That way you only pay the depreciation (which you'd pay anyway) and after 3 years you have the option of buying it as a used car for the remaining cost or moving on to a new car with no hassle trying to sell it.

ktRolster 9y ago

They might be measuring the "average used car", not the "average used car for sale." So immediately after you buy the car, it becomes a used car (or maybe a year after, not clear from the article).

MrFoof 9y ago

What classic Porsche is selling for $30M? * Even Steve McQueen's 917K only sold for $14.08M the other day. * A 956 with five LeMans wins sold for $10.12M. * The L&M sponsored 917/10 sold for $5.83M. * A RS60 Spyder with an amazing pedigree sold for $5.40M. * Jerry Seinfeld's 550 Spyder sold for $5.33M. * Paul Newman's 935 sold for $4.84M. ... and the list falls from there. As usual, the most valuable Porsches have pedigree as winning race cars. Even the rarest road-going Porsches (959 Sports) I believe are all worth under $2M (save for wacky stuff like the flat-8 904), and only until recently (past 10-15 years) have Porsches really appreciated in value.

sbierwagen 9y ago
Amended.
justin66 9y ago
> A 956 with five LeMans wins sold for $10.12M I love the 956 as much as the next guy (more, even) but the only model to ever win Le Mans five times was the Audi R8, and it wasn't with the same chassis, I'm sure. Did you mean they sold a Le Mans chassis that won five races, more generally? Not trying to be a pedant, I'm honestly curious which car you're talking about. > The L&M sponsored 917/10 sold for $5.83M That's a surprisingly small figure. Which really speaks to your point, I guess.
- MrFoof 9y ago
  You are correct. 956-003 won LeMans in '83, and won five races overall. Regardless, most "classic Porsches" sell for under $100K. As I mentioned in another comment, the bulk of what's sold are 1978 - 1993 911s. 964s trade hands around $50-65K, and SCs more around $20-35K. Yes, there's stuff outside of that (Very good 993s commanding ~$100K now, 930 Turbos definitely not cheap, all RSs definitely not cheap due to rarity, 993 GT2s very expensive as well), but the bulk of non-supercar classic Porsches are very affordable until you get into the rare top-shelf stuff or the very old: in which value is dictated by pedigree, condition and rarity. Additionally, with ~22 million used cars sold and registered in the US every year, a single 8-digit sale does not materially affect the average selling price of used cars. Never mind the fact that no used Porsche commands anywhere near $30M (and I believe only five Porsches are in the Top 100 most expensive cars sold of all time), which is where I had serious issue with the OP.

usaphp 9y ago

The number of porshes that are being sold for $14 million is a drop in the sea compared to the whole used car industry

loeg 9y ago
Far-over-median priced vehicles will still drag up the average.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Yes, but... How many used cars are sold in a year? It's got to be more than a million, doesn't it? So, yes, that $15 million Porsche drives up the average price... by $15. That's not significant.
  - tmnvix 9y ago
    $15 due to a single sale seems very significant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by your reckoning just 100 super collectable sales (average $5m) could raise the overall average by over $500.
    - usaphp 9y ago
      It's still insignificant in terms of the OP comment. Also there aren't 100 cars with an average price of 5 Mln sold per year, far from it [1] 1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_cars_sold_at_auction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_cars_...
      - tmnvix 9y ago
        That list shows that of the top ~20 cars sold in 2016 the average price was ~$10m.
        usaphp 9y ago
        But there are only a handful of them, which defeats the OP reasoning

unclebucknasty 9y ago

It may be because there are more people who sell their cars newer than those who wait until they're older. And from the article: >increasing share of those sales came with a lease So, those leases become late-model, low-mileage used cars for sale.

guy_c 9y ago

Need to also be careful how they've defined 'used'. Dealers will sometimes buy the cars themselves to hit sales targets set by the manufacturer. They then sell off those cars 'used'.

pantsofhonking 9y ago

Average used car selling price is completely useless. Median would be more informative.

r27d 9y ago

The article neglects to mention Obama's $3 billion dollar Cash for Clunkers program in '08 which hurt used vehicle supply.

rconti 9y ago
Shouldn't that have RAISED use vehicle prices? Or is that your point, that the dropoff would have been even larger without C4C?
- aidenn0 9y ago
  If you have an outlier like that you can skew the slope greatly by where you pick your starting point. E.g. if I were to measure the drop in used-car prices from when C4C was at its peak, I would expect to see a big drop; much bigger than if I measure from just before C4C.
- r00fus 9y ago
  Yeah, several years ago. Now it's plummeting due to a glut.
- r27d 9y ago
  Here's a great article. https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/08/31/cash-for-clunkers-how-bad-public-policy-gets-made/LStZtMRqTNKxAc62sYP4fM/amp.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/08/31/cash-for-clun...

mrfusion 9y ago

Check out carmax sometime. 15k is way low actually.