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I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long hours/

I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long hours/weekend work in order to fulfill some "mission" and "greater purpose" and that I should feel a part of this for the greater good. It kind of hit me that this was mostly just a fantastic way to extract more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who didn't know any better without paying them for this extra effort, but that, at the end of the journey it will pay off! With that in mind, I realized that I much prefer being a hired gun, where I typically can add benefit for about 1-2 years, then it's onto the next thing. I have very little interest in the corporate grind working my way up from new employee to VP or whatever, repeating the corporate mission like some sort of indoctrination, trying to keep myself sane. I would be interested in a workplace that just kind of accepted this, but I'm afraid optically, no company wants to present its relationship with its workforce as entirely trasnactional. I'd be a huge fan.

karllager 9y ago
Thanks for this story. I believe a lot of people would love to work on some greater good. I, for one, would love to work for a aggressive non-profit, if there is such a thing. Software and automation is the way to the future - why let just a few profit from it?
svachalek 9y ago
Read up on Netflix, it's a very Kool-Aid-free culture.
bigmanwalter 9y ago
There are recruitment firms who can find you these transational contracts. They're full time generally and pay well.
gakz 9y ago
I have hope that some companies are starting to understand this and we'll have –hopefully– a course correction. What has become common is unsustainable. A few companies are starting to understand this, I think what DHH and Basecamp are doing is more the future. Giving people's lives outside of work as seemingly a first class priority, which sounds weird to say as a new notion, but yet here we are - https://basecamp.com/about/jobs https://basecamp.com/about/jobs
- sharkweek 9y ago
  Yeah this is great - I think a course correction is going to be necessary to keep people sane. Most people aren't wired to work 12 hour days 6 days a week. More than anything, I just think it's kind of gross that if I don't go to the after work happy hour, or don't send emails on the weekend, that I'm not perceived as being on-board. Can't stand that line of thinking.
- RobertoG 9y ago
  That's only possible if your business model doesn't depend on extracting "more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who didn't know any better without paying them for this extra effort".
  - FLUX-YOU 9y ago
    I doubt very few of them depend on it, but that was just a way to get a higher profit margin. It's the reverse when developers try to negotiate higher salaries for themselves. Some portion of the population is not going to be good at negotiating and so will be underpaid.
sjg007 9y ago
The only payoff is the IPO. Sad but true. You can work in a world changing place but you also want it to change your world.
- Twirrim 9y ago
  Given how few startups actually make it to IPO, and with the way equity for the workers gets watered down heavily, it's naive at best to mistake that equity as anything meaningful.
  - vkuruthers 9y ago
    Need to view that equity as icing on the cake, that's all. Highly likely to lead to a meaningful cashout, unless you were a founder.
chaostheory 9y ago
> no company wants to present its relationship with its workforce as entirely trasnactional You may like working for big consulting firms then, where it's up or out.
leoc 9y ago
The Soul of a New Machine gives a very good depiction of the moral ambiguities of that crusading spirit in the context of (most) computer-industry work.
- tonyarkles 9y ago
  > The mushroom philosophy of management: keep 'em in the dark, feed 'em shit, and watch things grow.
gagege 9y ago
I recently sat through one of those company/product mission presentations at work. It was one of those "am I the only sane person working here?" moments. I like our product, I want to see it succeed, but I really can't stand the religious fervor marketing departments and managers give off. And the amazing part is that my co-workers seem to completely buy into it. Everyone talks like what we're doing is going to change the world and yadda yadda yadda, like there's some kind of prophesy about our social media app. How about lets make the thing and see if it's successful before we start singing its praises, okay?
- sharkweek 9y ago
  I think deep down, a lot of people have a low hum of awareness that they don't believe what is being said, but it's a survival mechanism to repress this in order to maintain a sense of worth in the work being done/not get fired for not being a team player.
  - nasalgoat 9y ago
    My personal perspective is cynical like yours - that it's generally a scam to try and extract more "value" out of workers - but my wife works at a large corporation where they seem to genuinely try to make it an enjoyable place to work and the people involved, all the way up the ladder, are committed to that ideal. Praise flows freely, they do a ton of charity work, and it's not a thin veneer over a corporate machine. Perhaps the difference is that it's over 100 years old in a very established worldwide business, so there's room in the budget and schedule to be a lot more flexible and provide home/work balance. All I know is I'm kind of jealous - I've only ever worked in the soul-sucking companies.
    - takee 9y ago
      Do you mind sharing the domain in which your wife's company is involved in (assuming you don't want to share the name of the company)?
      - 9y ago
scrumper 9y ago
I'm quite interested in fully worker-owned cooperatives, with necessary management hired in by and accountable to the collective (think: CFOs). I'm thinking of the kind of structure of the Martian cooperatives that Kim Stanley Robinson writes about. These organizations are likely extremely hard to get off the ground and certainly would be virtually impossible to grow beyond a certain small size, but the software industry has unique aspects allowing it to deliver enormous returns on the efforts of a handful of specialists.
- dflock 9y ago
  These already exist and are much larger and more successful than most people realise. Start here and follow the links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
  - scrumper 9y ago
    I had certainly heard of those (they're referenced in the books, by name and fleetingly, directly), but I had no idea of the scale. Very interesting, thank you. Edit: how could I have forgotten John Lewis, a solidly middle class British department store and supermarket chain not a million miles away from Mondragon in structure.
whataretensors 9y ago
This is one of the reasons I like consulting.
alleycat 9y ago
This is me. May I suggested contracting. You provide your value then you get the hell out of there, no need to deal with the workplace politics, its great.

karllager 9y ago

Thanks for this story. I believe a lot of people would love to work on some greater good. I, for one, would love to work for a aggressive non-profit, if there is such a thing. Software and automation is the way to the future - why let just a few profit from it?

svachalek 9y ago

Read up on Netflix, it's a very Kool-Aid-free culture.

bigmanwalter 9y ago

There are recruitment firms who can find you these transational contracts. They're full time generally and pay well.

gakz 9y ago

I have hope that some companies are starting to understand this and we'll have –hopefully– a course correction. What has become common is unsustainable. A few companies are starting to understand this, I think what DHH and Basecamp are doing is more the future. Giving people's lives outside of work as seemingly a first class priority, which sounds weird to say as a new notion, but yet here we are - https://basecamp.com/about/jobs https://basecamp.com/about/jobs

sharkweek 9y ago
Yeah this is great - I think a course correction is going to be necessary to keep people sane. Most people aren't wired to work 12 hour days 6 days a week. More than anything, I just think it's kind of gross that if I don't go to the after work happy hour, or don't send emails on the weekend, that I'm not perceived as being on-board. Can't stand that line of thinking.
RobertoG 9y ago
That's only possible if your business model doesn't depend on extracting "more work out of young, impressionable 20somethings who didn't know any better without paying them for this extra effort".
- FLUX-YOU 9y ago
  I doubt very few of them depend on it, but that was just a way to get a higher profit margin. It's the reverse when developers try to negotiate higher salaries for themselves. Some portion of the population is not going to be good at negotiating and so will be underpaid.

sjg007 9y ago

The only payoff is the IPO. Sad but true. You can work in a world changing place but you also want it to change your world.

Twirrim 9y ago
Given how few startups actually make it to IPO, and with the way equity for the workers gets watered down heavily, it's naive at best to mistake that equity as anything meaningful.
- vkuruthers 9y ago
  Need to view that equity as icing on the cake, that's all. Highly likely to lead to a meaningful cashout, unless you were a founder.

chaostheory 9y ago

> no company wants to present its relationship with its workforce as entirely trasnactional You may like working for big consulting firms then, where it's up or out.

leoc 9y ago

The Soul of a New Machine gives a very good depiction of the moral ambiguities of that crusading spirit in the context of (most) computer-industry work.

tonyarkles 9y ago
> The mushroom philosophy of management: keep 'em in the dark, feed 'em shit, and watch things grow.

gagege 9y ago

I recently sat through one of those company/product mission presentations at work. It was one of those "am I the only sane person working here?" moments. I like our product, I want to see it succeed, but I really can't stand the religious fervor marketing departments and managers give off. And the amazing part is that my co-workers seem to completely buy into it. Everyone talks like what we're doing is going to change the world and yadda yadda yadda, like there's some kind of prophesy about our social media app. How about lets make the thing and see if it's successful before we start singing its praises, okay?

sharkweek 9y ago
I think deep down, a lot of people have a low hum of awareness that they don't believe what is being said, but it's a survival mechanism to repress this in order to maintain a sense of worth in the work being done/not get fired for not being a team player.
- nasalgoat 9y ago
  My personal perspective is cynical like yours - that it's generally a scam to try and extract more "value" out of workers - but my wife works at a large corporation where they seem to genuinely try to make it an enjoyable place to work and the people involved, all the way up the ladder, are committed to that ideal. Praise flows freely, they do a ton of charity work, and it's not a thin veneer over a corporate machine. Perhaps the difference is that it's over 100 years old in a very established worldwide business, so there's room in the budget and schedule to be a lot more flexible and provide home/work balance. All I know is I'm kind of jealous - I've only ever worked in the soul-sucking companies.
  - takee 9y ago
    Do you mind sharing the domain in which your wife's company is involved in (assuming you don't want to share the name of the company)?
    - 9y ago

scrumper 9y ago

I'm quite interested in fully worker-owned cooperatives, with necessary management hired in by and accountable to the collective (think: CFOs). I'm thinking of the kind of structure of the Martian cooperatives that Kim Stanley Robinson writes about. These organizations are likely extremely hard to get off the ground and certainly would be virtually impossible to grow beyond a certain small size, but the software industry has unique aspects allowing it to deliver enormous returns on the efforts of a handful of specialists.

dflock 9y ago
These already exist and are much larger and more successful than most people realise. Start here and follow the links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
- scrumper 9y ago
  I had certainly heard of those (they're referenced in the books, by name and fleetingly, directly), but I had no idea of the scale. Very interesting, thank you. Edit: how could I have forgotten John Lewis, a solidly middle class British department store and supermarket chain not a million miles away from Mondragon in structure.

whataretensors 9y ago

This is one of the reasons I like consulting.

alleycat 9y ago

This is me. May I suggested contracting. You provide your value then you get the hell out of there, no need to deal with the workplace politics, its great.