5 ms·

Lets say this fails and a bunch of kids are blown up, who will be held responsible? Importantly, how will we ensure an individual is accountable rather than th

by cup 9y ago

Lets say this fails and a bunch of kids are blown up, who will be held responsible? Importantly, how will we ensure an individual is accountable rather than the corporation being at fault.

slededit 9y ago
The government deploying this in war time is responsible for its actions. "Corporations" not directly associated with a government actor would be considered mercenaries with its own set of international law.
- zo7 9y ago
  But who will the deploying government's army hold responsible? If a soldier recklessly kills several civilians they will likely be held for responsible for their actions and discharged. If an autonomous robot does the same, then what will happen?
  - slededit 9y ago
    Not that it will make you feel any better, but often the offending soldier is not held responsible. Ultimately might will make right and the victors will decide on the punishment. The "system" is already an excuse. Example the Tarnak Farm Incident where a US pilot killed 4 Canadian soldiers: "... as much as the F-16 pilots bear final responsibility for the fratricide incident, there existed other systemic shortcomings in air coordination and control procedures, as well as mission planning practices by the tactical flying units, that may have prevented the accident had they been corrected."[5] Despite the fact he "flagrantly disregarded a direct order", "exercised a total lack of basic flight discipline", and "blatantly ignored the applicable rules of engagement". He was merely fined $5,700.
  - chongli 9y ago
    While it may feel emotionally gratifying to punish the human soldier, isn't it better overall to have a robot that can be fixed with a patch? The same sorts of arguments can be made about self-driving cars.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- honestoHeminway 9y ago
  My personal nightmare is actually autonomous factories, getting hacked and producing a drone army over night. Sorry, daddy has to go fight the toaster factory today.
AdeptusAquinas 9y ago
Pretty sure the official policy would be to brand the kids as terrorists and/or enemy combatants, and cry fake news if anyone complains
user982 9y ago
Droned kids are "fun-size terrorists."[1] Problem solved. [1]: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/former-drone-operators-say-they-were-horrified-by-cruelty-of-assassination-program/ https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/former-drone-operators-s...
- devrandomguy 9y ago
  See also, the infamous "collateral damage" video on LiveLeak. I will not link it here, because of how absolutely horrific it is. Do not seek it out if you value your faith in humanity. Having said that, I believe it is representative of modern warfare, and I do not think that that atrocity should ever be forgotten.
  - 3131s 9y ago
    There are so many videos like that out there. The fact that two Reuters journalists were killed in the "collateral murder" video is notable, but unfortunately children and first responders being killed is not out of the ordinary. Yesterday I posted a compilation of Apache gunships blowing up black and white silhouettes of people and massive expanses of land. I don't buy for a second that the US military or their contractors really know anything about the people they are killing, beyond the fact that they have identified with certain groups for reasons that could range from nationalism to just plain self-preservation and a salary. It is undebatable that most of the 1,000,000s of people who died in the Middle East in the last 15 years were not guilty of any crime, and even if they were the US consistently provided no proof before incinerating them extra-judicially.
  - Fifer82 9y ago
    The video is very sad. I feel the news in the UK is way way way too soft. All citizens should see the real cost of war. It is so easy to just be ignorant. "oh that, yawn". If people aren't shown it, how can they ever judge (with a vote at the ballot box) to be for or against it.
confounded 9y ago
Individuals are not held accountable now. The US defines all drone kills as terrorists, by definition. It's on the corpse to prove its innocence after the fact. Obviously, this makes great training data for ML algorithms.
e12e 9y ago
> Lets say this fails and a bunch of kids are blown up, who will be held responsible? History suggests no-one: http://legaciesofwar.org/resources/cluster-bomb-fact-sheet/ http://legaciesofwar.org/resources/cluster-bomb-fact-sheet/ See also: land mines.
alkonaut 9y ago
Note that this is very old HARM (radar seeking weapon) tech. There is no difference legally or morally between launching this mini plane it from a vehicle and launching a normal radar seeking missile or bomb from a plane as has been done for decades. And if the weapon causes collateral damage that is the responsibility of the person who pulled the trigger, then the commander, and ultimately the nation that did it. Even if this was some kind of "smart" weapon, nothing would change. Whoever decided to used it has responsibility for the outcome. The moral hazard of autonomous and remote controlled weapons isn't that there is no responsibility, but that the threshold for use is lowered.

by cup 9y ago

Lets say this fails and a bunch of kids are blown up, who will be held responsible? Importantly, how will we ensure an individual is accountable rather than the corporation being at fault.

slededit 9y ago

The government deploying this in war time is responsible for its actions. "Corporations" not directly associated with a government actor would be considered mercenaries with its own set of international law.

zo7 9y ago
But who will the deploying government's army hold responsible? If a soldier recklessly kills several civilians they will likely be held for responsible for their actions and discharged. If an autonomous robot does the same, then what will happen?
- slededit 9y ago
  Not that it will make you feel any better, but often the offending soldier is not held responsible. Ultimately might will make right and the victors will decide on the punishment. The "system" is already an excuse. Example the Tarnak Farm Incident where a US pilot killed 4 Canadian soldiers: "... as much as the F-16 pilots bear final responsibility for the fratricide incident, there existed other systemic shortcomings in air coordination and control procedures, as well as mission planning practices by the tactical flying units, that may have prevented the accident had they been corrected."[5] Despite the fact he "flagrantly disregarded a direct order", "exercised a total lack of basic flight discipline", and "blatantly ignored the applicable rules of engagement". He was merely fined $5,700.
- chongli 9y ago
  While it may feel emotionally gratifying to punish the human soldier, isn't it better overall to have a robot that can be fixed with a patch? The same sorts of arguments can be made about self-driving cars.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
honestoHeminway 9y ago
My personal nightmare is actually autonomous factories, getting hacked and producing a drone army over night. Sorry, daddy has to go fight the toaster factory today.

AdeptusAquinas 9y ago

Pretty sure the official policy would be to brand the kids as terrorists and/or enemy combatants, and cry fake news if anyone complains

user982 9y ago

Droned kids are "fun-size terrorists."[1] Problem solved. [1]: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/former-drone-operators-say-they-were-horrified-by-cruelty-of-assassination-program/ https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/former-drone-operators-s...

devrandomguy 9y ago
See also, the infamous "collateral damage" video on LiveLeak. I will not link it here, because of how absolutely horrific it is. Do not seek it out if you value your faith in humanity. Having said that, I believe it is representative of modern warfare, and I do not think that that atrocity should ever be forgotten.
- 3131s 9y ago
  There are so many videos like that out there. The fact that two Reuters journalists were killed in the "collateral murder" video is notable, but unfortunately children and first responders being killed is not out of the ordinary. Yesterday I posted a compilation of Apache gunships blowing up black and white silhouettes of people and massive expanses of land. I don't buy for a second that the US military or their contractors really know anything about the people they are killing, beyond the fact that they have identified with certain groups for reasons that could range from nationalism to just plain self-preservation and a salary. It is undebatable that most of the 1,000,000s of people who died in the Middle East in the last 15 years were not guilty of any crime, and even if they were the US consistently provided no proof before incinerating them extra-judicially.
- Fifer82 9y ago
  The video is very sad. I feel the news in the UK is way way way too soft. All citizens should see the real cost of war. It is so easy to just be ignorant. "oh that, yawn". If people aren't shown it, how can they ever judge (with a vote at the ballot box) to be for or against it.

confounded 9y ago

Individuals are not held accountable now. The US defines all drone kills as terrorists, by definition. It's on the corpse to prove its innocence after the fact. Obviously, this makes great training data for ML algorithms.

e12e 9y ago

> Lets say this fails and a bunch of kids are blown up, who will be held responsible? History suggests no-one: http://legaciesofwar.org/resources/cluster-bomb-fact-sheet/ http://legaciesofwar.org/resources/cluster-bomb-fact-sheet/ See also: land mines.

alkonaut 9y ago

Note that this is very old HARM (radar seeking weapon) tech. There is no difference legally or morally between launching this mini plane it from a vehicle and launching a normal radar seeking missile or bomb from a plane as has been done for decades. And if the weapon causes collateral damage that is the responsibility of the person who pulled the trigger, then the commander, and ultimately the nation that did it. Even if this was some kind of "smart" weapon, nothing would change. Whoever decided to used it has responsibility for the outcome. The moral hazard of autonomous and remote controlled weapons isn't that there is no responsibility, but that the threshold for use is lowered.