8 ms·

Or even if just gets the chip manufacturers out of the equation, that alone fixes most of the problems. The OEM side is usually pretty easy / trivial in compar

Or even if just gets the chip manufacturers out of the equation, that alone fixes most of the problems. The OEM side is usually pretty easy / trivial in comparison. And there are a number of OEMs who would happily push updates but can't, because they can't get hardware packages from Qualcomm / Amlogic / Freescale / etc. That, more than anything else, holds back new Android releases on lots of hardware.

Karunamon 9y ago
Supposedly the carriers are real pains as well. I've heard horror stories of months-long approvals processes on Verizon and AT&T ROMs. It's a game I wish they'd get out of entirely. There's no such thing as a useful carrier overlay.
- maxsilver 9y ago
  True. That's a totally different problem that Treble isn't intended to address, as far as I'm aware.
- AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
  > I've heard horror stories of months-long approvals processes on Verizon and AT&T ROMs. Six months and counting, waiting for Verizon to approve the Nougat update on my HTC One M9. It has literally hit everyone else: [0]http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/09/unlocked-htc-one-m9-start-getting-nougat-ota-tonight-december-6/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/09/unlocked-htc-one-m9-... [1]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/android-7-0-nougat-ota-rolling-htc-10-10-lifestyle-one-m9-europe/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/android-7-0-nougat-o... [2]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/21/t-mobile-variant-htc-one-m9-starts-receiving-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/21/t-mobile-variant-htc... [3]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/04/12/htc-one-m9-sprint-getting-nougat-update/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/04/12/htc-one-m9-sprint-ge... [4]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/05/16/atts-htc-one-m9-updated-android-7-0-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/05/16/atts-htc-one-m9-upda...
  - metalliqaz 9y ago
    Verizon is the Comcast of wireless. The next omen of the apocalypse will be when the Trump administration approves their merger.
    - seanp2k2 9y ago
      Good thing their lawyer literally runs the FCC. They also have the best coverage, also like Comcast. Unlike Comcast, however, you don't have to get Verizon depending on where you live.
      - thanksgiving 9y ago
        Verizon wireless being evil is exactly why I stuck with T-Mobile for such a long time even as they keep making billing "mistakes" to the tune of about ten dollars every month for a while. (I believe they're just supremely incompetent but the errors somehow always are to their benefit.) With Verizon or Cingular, I assume it is just pure malice. I've talked to people about how Verizon is trying to use its network as an advantage for advertising with supercookies and such on one end and Yahoo!/Aol on the other end but it seems to alarm nobody.
        throwaway613834 9y ago
        Can I ask what some examples of these "mistakes" are? P.S. also, was Cingular a joke about AT&T? I think I missed what the joke is...
        thanksgiving 9y ago
        Two in particular. 1. Cramming https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/t-mobile-gives-up-fight-over-cramming-fees-will-pay-90m-back-to-customers/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/t-mobile-gives-u... 2. They had a "free for life" 200MB? data plan for the Nexus 7 tablet kept billing me every month. It was a monthly ritual for about six months. Call, explain, get adjusted.
- Zee2 9y ago
  Honestly, even after years of following Android, I still don't understand what the carriers even do to the ROMs. It's not like it needs special proprietary software tweaks just to connect to an ordinary GSM band. And it's also not like I get any kind of visual voicemail, WiFi calling, etc baked directly into the system either. Those carrier features are usually still separate apps, anyway. Honestly, what are they doing, and why does it take them multiple months to do it?
  - klondike_ 9y ago
    Carriers generally have deals with other companies for preinstalled apps which may or may not still be active by the time it comes around for an update. Also they have to test the devices, but considering the sheer number of Android devices they probably prioritize new high end devices first. This problem is made worse on Verizon and Sprint which use CDMA 3G networks, as opposed to the worldwide GSM standard. Also this could be a result of marketing as well. You can get the latest Android on a new device, or you can wait an indeterminate amount of time (a few months to never) to get a free update on your old device.
    - fabrice_d 9y ago
      This is about cost: updates sometimes fail (incredible, I know), and carriers are the first place people go to get their phones back in working order. This kind of support is quite costly so carriers don't push too hard for updates to happen.
      - ethbro 9y ago
        Every fifth security vulnerability in Android should cause the radio to spam reconnect attempts or similarly onorous behavior. I imagine carrier responses would look a lot different then.
      - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
        They want you renting a new phone from them every year. Dragging their feet on updates shifts sales to their newer lineup.
- ksk 9y ago
  Probably because they have to test the ROMs on their network in different regions, with different frequency bands, with roaming, etc. That work is tedious given all of the phones they support.
  - tinus_hn 9y ago
    Good thing they don't have to test these iPhones!
    - ksk 9y ago
      They do. Apple makes them available to carriers pre-launch IIRC.
      - tinus_hn 9y ago
        Probably, but they won't delay the launch for months if the carriers drag their feet
  - ClassyJacket 9y ago
    The iPhone doesn't suffer from this problem. It should be up to the phone manufacturer (HTC, Samsung, etc.) to test their product. The carrier can still, of course, test the new firmware all they like - they just shouldn't be able to interfere with its release.
    - kalleboo 9y ago
      TBF, Apple did release one update that caused issues with the radio on the Verizon network[0]. Carrier testing should have caught that. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/17/13306776/apple-iphone-7-plus-ios-update-verizon-cellular-connectivity https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/17/13306776/apple-iphone-7-...
    - danieldk 9y ago
      The iPhone doesn't suffer from this problem. It should be up to the phone manufacturer (HTC, Samsung, etc.) to test their product. Moreover, in some European countries it is normal to buy a phone and a subscription separately. In some countries bundling is even illegal. I have never had a carrier-branded phone since I switched to smartphones, including my Android excursion (Nexus 4, Moto X 2013, Moto G, Moto X 2014) and some Windows Phones that I played with (Lumia 710/920/640). They all worked on multiple carriers. Everyone should stop perpetuating the carrier testing myth. For this we have the GSM standards and in many parts of the world a large number of phones are not carrier-branded.
- xorcist 9y ago
  Carriers are a red herring. The world at large couldn't care less about how the customers of AT&T can supposedly only install AT&T-approved firmware. Most people can, but they're not seeing any updates. Google needs to fix their upgrade story. Even if the North American customers continued to run old vulnerable versions forever, updating everyone else's systems would be a tremendous improvement. (It would also make it difficult for the US carriers to continue those particular business shenanigans.)
  - rubyn00bie 9y ago
    Do you have any facts to back this up? Prior to the iPhone changing how phones were sold-- carriers meddled with everything so they could get their hands in media playback, app sales, feature upgrades etc. I don't think much has changed in this where anyone gives them an inch (which is nearly everyone but Apple). Note: I worked for T-Mobile for four years prior and a little after the originals iphone came out.
    - Tehnix 9y ago
      Before the iPhone, how prevalent were software updates to phones? I know of no one who ever got had an update. There is absolutely no reason for carriers to need to do anything at all, else it would not make sense that I can change the SIM card out and voila I’m on a new carrier. The manufacturer is the one doing the testing, and the carrier simply provides the infrastructure. I feel US perhaps has a different experience, because of their ridiculous CDMA infrastructure. Is it Verizon or what, where it’s not a SIM card but the phone itself that’s setup to a specific carrier?
      - fpgeek 9y ago
        It's not just just Verizon. AT&T, in particular, has a habit of locking important features (VoLTE, Wi-Fi Calling) to phones running AT&T-branded and certified software. So unless the device you want is sold by AT&T and you get the AT&T-branded version, you're SoL. They even do IMEI blocking, so even if your device could otherwise work...
- IshKebab 9y ago
  The carriers are not the problem. They may be an additional problem but even when they aren't involved (i.e. outside America) Android updates still suck.

Karunamon 9y ago

Supposedly the carriers are real pains as well. I've heard horror stories of months-long approvals processes on Verizon and AT&T ROMs. It's a game I wish they'd get out of entirely. There's no such thing as a useful carrier overlay.

maxsilver 9y ago
True. That's a totally different problem that Treble isn't intended to address, as far as I'm aware.
AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
> I've heard horror stories of months-long approvals processes on Verizon and AT&T ROMs. Six months and counting, waiting for Verizon to approve the Nougat update on my HTC One M9. It has literally hit everyone else: [0]http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/09/unlocked-htc-one-m9-start-getting-nougat-ota-tonight-december-6/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/09/unlocked-htc-one-m9-... [1]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/android-7-0-nougat-ota-rolling-htc-10-10-lifestyle-one-m9-europe/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/android-7-0-nougat-o... [2]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/21/t-mobile-variant-htc-one-m9-starts-receiving-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/21/t-mobile-variant-htc... [3]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/04/12/htc-one-m9-sprint-getting-nougat-update/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/04/12/htc-one-m9-sprint-ge... [4]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/05/16/atts-htc-one-m9-updated-android-7-0-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/05/16/atts-htc-one-m9-upda...
- metalliqaz 9y ago
  Verizon is the Comcast of wireless. The next omen of the apocalypse will be when the Trump administration approves their merger.
  - seanp2k2 9y ago
    Good thing their lawyer literally runs the FCC. They also have the best coverage, also like Comcast. Unlike Comcast, however, you don't have to get Verizon depending on where you live.
    - thanksgiving 9y ago
      Verizon wireless being evil is exactly why I stuck with T-Mobile for such a long time even as they keep making billing "mistakes" to the tune of about ten dollars every month for a while. (I believe they're just supremely incompetent but the errors somehow always are to their benefit.) With Verizon or Cingular, I assume it is just pure malice. I've talked to people about how Verizon is trying to use its network as an advantage for advertising with supercookies and such on one end and Yahoo!/Aol on the other end but it seems to alarm nobody.
      - throwaway613834 9y ago
        Can I ask what some examples of these "mistakes" are? P.S. also, was Cingular a joke about AT&T? I think I missed what the joke is...
        thanksgiving 9y ago
        Two in particular. 1. Cramming https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/t-mobile-gives-up-fight-over-cramming-fees-will-pay-90m-back-to-customers/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/t-mobile-gives-u... 2. They had a "free for life" 200MB? data plan for the Nexus 7 tablet kept billing me every month. It was a monthly ritual for about six months. Call, explain, get adjusted.
Zee2 9y ago
Honestly, even after years of following Android, I still don't understand what the carriers even do to the ROMs. It's not like it needs special proprietary software tweaks just to connect to an ordinary GSM band. And it's also not like I get any kind of visual voicemail, WiFi calling, etc baked directly into the system either. Those carrier features are usually still separate apps, anyway. Honestly, what are they doing, and why does it take them multiple months to do it?
- klondike_ 9y ago
  Carriers generally have deals with other companies for preinstalled apps which may or may not still be active by the time it comes around for an update. Also they have to test the devices, but considering the sheer number of Android devices they probably prioritize new high end devices first. This problem is made worse on Verizon and Sprint which use CDMA 3G networks, as opposed to the worldwide GSM standard. Also this could be a result of marketing as well. You can get the latest Android on a new device, or you can wait an indeterminate amount of time (a few months to never) to get a free update on your old device.
  - fabrice_d 9y ago
    This is about cost: updates sometimes fail (incredible, I know), and carriers are the first place people go to get their phones back in working order. This kind of support is quite costly so carriers don't push too hard for updates to happen.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      Every fifth security vulnerability in Android should cause the radio to spam reconnect attempts or similarly onorous behavior. I imagine carrier responses would look a lot different then.
    - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
      They want you renting a new phone from them every year. Dragging their feet on updates shifts sales to their newer lineup.
ksk 9y ago
Probably because they have to test the ROMs on their network in different regions, with different frequency bands, with roaming, etc. That work is tedious given all of the phones they support.
- tinus_hn 9y ago
  Good thing they don't have to test these iPhones!
  - ksk 9y ago
    They do. Apple makes them available to carriers pre-launch IIRC.
    - tinus_hn 9y ago
      Probably, but they won't delay the launch for months if the carriers drag their feet
- ClassyJacket 9y ago
  The iPhone doesn't suffer from this problem. It should be up to the phone manufacturer (HTC, Samsung, etc.) to test their product. The carrier can still, of course, test the new firmware all they like - they just shouldn't be able to interfere with its release.
  - kalleboo 9y ago
    TBF, Apple did release one update that caused issues with the radio on the Verizon network[0]. Carrier testing should have caught that. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/17/13306776/apple-iphone-7-plus-ios-update-verizon-cellular-connectivity https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/17/13306776/apple-iphone-7-...
  - danieldk 9y ago
    The iPhone doesn't suffer from this problem. It should be up to the phone manufacturer (HTC, Samsung, etc.) to test their product. Moreover, in some European countries it is normal to buy a phone and a subscription separately. In some countries bundling is even illegal. I have never had a carrier-branded phone since I switched to smartphones, including my Android excursion (Nexus 4, Moto X 2013, Moto G, Moto X 2014) and some Windows Phones that I played with (Lumia 710/920/640). They all worked on multiple carriers. Everyone should stop perpetuating the carrier testing myth. For this we have the GSM standards and in many parts of the world a large number of phones are not carrier-branded.
xorcist 9y ago
Carriers are a red herring. The world at large couldn't care less about how the customers of AT&T can supposedly only install AT&T-approved firmware. Most people can, but they're not seeing any updates. Google needs to fix their upgrade story. Even if the North American customers continued to run old vulnerable versions forever, updating everyone else's systems would be a tremendous improvement. (It would also make it difficult for the US carriers to continue those particular business shenanigans.)
- rubyn00bie 9y ago
  Do you have any facts to back this up? Prior to the iPhone changing how phones were sold-- carriers meddled with everything so they could get their hands in media playback, app sales, feature upgrades etc. I don't think much has changed in this where anyone gives them an inch (which is nearly everyone but Apple). Note: I worked for T-Mobile for four years prior and a little after the originals iphone came out.
  - Tehnix 9y ago
    Before the iPhone, how prevalent were software updates to phones? I know of no one who ever got had an update. There is absolutely no reason for carriers to need to do anything at all, else it would not make sense that I can change the SIM card out and voila I’m on a new carrier. The manufacturer is the one doing the testing, and the carrier simply provides the infrastructure. I feel US perhaps has a different experience, because of their ridiculous CDMA infrastructure. Is it Verizon or what, where it’s not a SIM card but the phone itself that’s setup to a specific carrier?
    - fpgeek 9y ago
      It's not just just Verizon. AT&T, in particular, has a habit of locking important features (VoLTE, Wi-Fi Calling) to phones running AT&T-branded and certified software. So unless the device you want is sold by AT&T and you get the AT&T-branded version, you're SoL. They even do IMEI blocking, so even if your device could otherwise work...
IshKebab 9y ago
The carriers are not the problem. They may be an additional problem but even when they aren't involved (i.e. outside America) Android updates still suck.