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Project Treble is the most important thing in this release >The biggest change to the foundations of Android to date: a modular architecture that makes it easi

Project Treble is the most important thing in this release >The biggest change to the foundations of Android to date: a modular architecture that makes it easier and faster for hardware makers to deliver Android updates. With any luck, this will end the huge security/update problem Android has. Right now an update is dependent on the chip manufacturer's drivers, then the OEM adding them to the ROM with their custom "improvements", and finally the carrier pushing the update to devices. Right now it just takes one break in the link and a device goes without updates, which is a security disaster. If Google can push updates from the Play Store (presumably the end goal of Treble), none of this will be a problem.

metalliqaz 9y ago
God, this can't come soon enough. It's awful out there. Even manufacturers that promise updates don't come through (ahem, HTC, ahem). Verizon especially makes it miserable. Ah, but who am I kidding, I'm sure Verizon will still find a way to ruin it.
- dnzm 9y ago
  And even then, in the US HTC rolled out a recent update for the HTC 10, while we're still on the January patches in the EU (and the rest of the world).
maxsilver 9y ago
Or even if just gets the chip manufacturers out of the equation, that alone fixes most of the problems. The OEM side is usually pretty easy / trivial in comparison. And there are a number of OEMs who would happily push updates but can't, because they can't get hardware packages from Qualcomm / Amlogic / Freescale / etc. That, more than anything else, holds back new Android releases on lots of hardware.
- Karunamon 9y ago
  Supposedly the carriers are real pains as well. I've heard horror stories of months-long approvals processes on Verizon and AT&T ROMs. It's a game I wish they'd get out of entirely. There's no such thing as a useful carrier overlay.
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    True. That's a totally different problem that Treble isn't intended to address, as far as I'm aware.
  - AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
    > I've heard horror stories of months-long approvals processes on Verizon and AT&T ROMs. Six months and counting, waiting for Verizon to approve the Nougat update on my HTC One M9. It has literally hit everyone else: [0]http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/09/unlocked-htc-one-m9-start-getting-nougat-ota-tonight-december-6/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/09/unlocked-htc-one-m9-... [1]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/android-7-0-nougat-ota-rolling-htc-10-10-lifestyle-one-m9-europe/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/android-7-0-nougat-o... [2]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/21/t-mobile-variant-htc-one-m9-starts-receiving-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/21/t-mobile-variant-htc... [3]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/04/12/htc-one-m9-sprint-getting-nougat-update/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/04/12/htc-one-m9-sprint-ge... [4]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/05/16/atts-htc-one-m9-updated-android-7-0-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/05/16/atts-htc-one-m9-upda...
    - metalliqaz 9y ago
      Verizon is the Comcast of wireless. The next omen of the apocalypse will be when the Trump administration approves their merger.
      - seanp2k2 9y ago
        Good thing their lawyer literally runs the FCC. They also have the best coverage, also like Comcast. Unlike Comcast, however, you don't have to get Verizon depending on where you live.
        thanksgiving 9y ago
        Verizon wireless being evil is exactly why I stuck with T-Mobile for such a long time even as they keep making billing "mistakes" to the tune of about ten dollars every month for a while. (I believe they're just supremely incompetent but the errors somehow always are to their benefit.) With Verizon or Cingular, I assume it is just pure malice. I've talked to people about how Verizon is trying to use its network as an advantage for advertising with supercookies and such on one end and Yahoo!/Aol on the other end but it seems to alarm nobody.
AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
Except, of course, getting your hands on a phone that has Oreo. For instance, the Galaxy S8 is the hottest new thing on the market right now, and it launched with Nougat. It will probably be six months to a year before Samsung pushes an Oreo update to it, if at all.
- moosingin3space 9y ago
  Samsung actually has a decent track record of updating their software -- my family's Galaxy S5s on T-Mobile (purchased 2014) are actually still receiving security updates, despite being on Marshmallow API level.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Only on the S series, the other ones is a guessing game.
    - abdulmuhaimin 9y ago
      well, he did use an S8 as an example. Honestly though, I think all of the company use the same strategy. Only the flagship line is the one getting extended support for update
  - 0xFFC 9y ago
    You kidding me right? They literally didn't update note tablets once!
    - moosingin3space 9y ago
      There was an implied "in my experience" on that. My family has used S-series devices, and those have generally gotten prompt security updates.
      - dep_b 9y ago
        Do those security updates also include kernel vulnerabilities?
subway 9y ago
I'm cautiously optimistic about Treble. I welcome userland updates not being subject to device/soc manufacturers whims, but wonder if this means devices will see kernel updates even less frequently than they already do. Then again, this new architecture likely makes it easier to move the Android userland to a new (non-linux) kernel, so maybe it'll be a moot point.
pjmlp 9y ago
As I commented in another HN story, I don't believe OEMs and telecom operators will release updates, if Google doesn't force them to do so. They already admitted on the ADB Podcast that they don't want to remove the ability for OEMs and mobile operators to customize their forks of Android. We will still be forced to buy new devices even if they are VTS certified.
- BinaryIdiot 9y ago
  I completely agree. It's good they broke it apart to make updates, in theory, easier but after working for a company that modified software that was delivered to them and then reshipped elsewhere it really never mattered how module the original was; the updates still go through the same channels, testing, etc and the OEMs will likely want to modify things not as cleanly separated (an API design never passes its production usage without warts). I doubt we'll see much change. I hope it'll make it slightly faster but without an agreement with OEMs that has teeth forcing them to be more expedient I can't see this getting much better.
- dcomp 9y ago
  > VTS certified If it passed VTS it should be able to run AOSP. The new CTS will be an AOSP System image running their VTS passing "drivers". Even if your vendor doesn't push any updates. At least you should be able to run a number of newer versions of AOSP as long as Android doesn't deprecate those VTS drivers.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Usually common users don't flash their devices and that is what matters for the Android dashboard.
  - bitmapbrother 9y ago
    Providing your bootloader can be unlocked, of course.
  - nicpottier 9y ago
    You've said this in a few different places, do you have a source for that? You are saying you could load AOSP on an S9 regardless of what Samsung does? If so, this is indeed huge, but I have some serious doubts about it, perhaps because I have felt so very burned by Android so many times in this respect on anything but Nexus devices.
thinbeige 9y ago
Why do you think so? On that page is just this sentence and nothing more. I don't believe in a significant improvment unless Google takes ownership of all OS updates themselves.
- klondike_ 9y ago
  Treble is the first step to Google updating devices themselves. Now that drivers are more or less independent from the rest of the operating system, Google has the option to push updates to the OS without having to tailor it specifically for every device
madeofpalk 9y ago
I remember many years ago when a few carrier and chipset execs stood up on Google I/O stage and announced a new program to ensure Android devices get updated quicker. Nothing came out of that. The proof here will be when they ship. Thankfully, 'Google Play Services' and distributing more and more services through the Play Store is a step in the right direction.
- sangnoir 9y ago
  > I remember many years ago when a few carrier and chipset execs stood up on Google I/O stage and announced a new program to ensure Android devices get updated quicker. Nothing came out of that Google remembers that too, and this change allows Google to bypass those same execs when pushing out updates. The HAL layer will not change from version to version, meaning no driver support will be required from the OEM for new Android versions.
  - keganunderwood 9y ago
    They were supposed to not put any user app on the system partition but rather install them using play services when the user logs in. I've only seen one device implement it and it was a low end device so it kind of choked anyway.
    - fpgeek 9y ago
      I've seen plenty of devices implement this. Of course, they were all ones I'd flashed with CyanogenMod...
- kuschku 9y ago
  > Thankfully, 'Google Play Services' and distributing more and more services through the Play Store is a step in the right direction. A move towards replacing an open OS with an entirely proprietary solution full of tracking by a single vendor is "a step in the right direction"? There's thousands of solutions for how you can update core OS components, none of them require what Google's doing to open source.
sjuut 9y ago
It is nice to see the updated Bluetooth 5 stack as a feature of Treble
- rogihee 9y ago
  That's good, but I really, really want to set the Supervision timeout to something other than a rudiculous 20 seconds: https://blog.classycode.com/a-short-story-about-android-ble-connection-timeouts-and-gatt-internal-errors-fa89e3f6a456 https://blog.classycode.com/a-short-story-about-android-ble-...
dclowd9901 9y ago
Every time I seriously consider the Android platform, I hear about this kind of shortcoming and I'm immediately turned off. I want to buy a phone, not a carrier. This fragmentation per device/carrier is killing this amazing platform. They need to lock it down Apple style (at least for phones).

metalliqaz 9y ago

God, this can't come soon enough. It's awful out there. Even manufacturers that promise updates don't come through (ahem, HTC, ahem). Verizon especially makes it miserable. Ah, but who am I kidding, I'm sure Verizon will still find a way to ruin it.

dnzm 9y ago
And even then, in the US HTC rolled out a recent update for the HTC 10, while we're still on the January patches in the EU (and the rest of the world).

maxsilver 9y ago

Or even if just gets the chip manufacturers out of the equation, that alone fixes most of the problems. The OEM side is usually pretty easy / trivial in comparison. And there are a number of OEMs who would happily push updates but can't, because they can't get hardware packages from Qualcomm / Amlogic / Freescale / etc. That, more than anything else, holds back new Android releases on lots of hardware.

Karunamon 9y ago
Supposedly the carriers are real pains as well. I've heard horror stories of months-long approvals processes on Verizon and AT&T ROMs. It's a game I wish they'd get out of entirely. There's no such thing as a useful carrier overlay.
- maxsilver 9y ago
  True. That's a totally different problem that Treble isn't intended to address, as far as I'm aware.
- AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
  > I've heard horror stories of months-long approvals processes on Verizon and AT&T ROMs. Six months and counting, waiting for Verizon to approve the Nougat update on my HTC One M9. It has literally hit everyone else: [0]http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/09/unlocked-htc-one-m9-start-getting-nougat-ota-tonight-december-6/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/12/09/unlocked-htc-one-m9-... [1]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/android-7-0-nougat-ota-rolling-htc-10-10-lifestyle-one-m9-europe/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/android-7-0-nougat-o... [2]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/21/t-mobile-variant-htc-one-m9-starts-receiving-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/21/t-mobile-variant-htc... [3]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/04/12/htc-one-m9-sprint-getting-nougat-update/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/04/12/htc-one-m9-sprint-ge... [4]http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/05/16/atts-htc-one-m9-updated-android-7-0-nougat/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/05/16/atts-htc-one-m9-upda...
  - metalliqaz 9y ago
    Verizon is the Comcast of wireless. The next omen of the apocalypse will be when the Trump administration approves their merger.
    - seanp2k2 9y ago
      Good thing their lawyer literally runs the FCC. They also have the best coverage, also like Comcast. Unlike Comcast, however, you don't have to get Verizon depending on where you live.
      - thanksgiving 9y ago
        Verizon wireless being evil is exactly why I stuck with T-Mobile for such a long time even as they keep making billing "mistakes" to the tune of about ten dollars every month for a while. (I believe they're just supremely incompetent but the errors somehow always are to their benefit.) With Verizon or Cingular, I assume it is just pure malice. I've talked to people about how Verizon is trying to use its network as an advantage for advertising with supercookies and such on one end and Yahoo!/Aol on the other end but it seems to alarm nobody.

AdmiralAsshat 9y ago

Except, of course, getting your hands on a phone that has Oreo. For instance, the Galaxy S8 is the hottest new thing on the market right now, and it launched with Nougat. It will probably be six months to a year before Samsung pushes an Oreo update to it, if at all.

moosingin3space 9y ago
Samsung actually has a decent track record of updating their software -- my family's Galaxy S5s on T-Mobile (purchased 2014) are actually still receiving security updates, despite being on Marshmallow API level.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Only on the S series, the other ones is a guessing game.
  - abdulmuhaimin 9y ago
    well, he did use an S8 as an example. Honestly though, I think all of the company use the same strategy. Only the flagship line is the one getting extended support for update
- 0xFFC 9y ago
  You kidding me right? They literally didn't update note tablets once!
  - moosingin3space 9y ago
    There was an implied "in my experience" on that. My family has used S-series devices, and those have generally gotten prompt security updates.
    - dep_b 9y ago
      Do those security updates also include kernel vulnerabilities?

subway 9y ago

I'm cautiously optimistic about Treble. I welcome userland updates not being subject to device/soc manufacturers whims, but wonder if this means devices will see kernel updates even less frequently than they already do. Then again, this new architecture likely makes it easier to move the Android userland to a new (non-linux) kernel, so maybe it'll be a moot point.

pjmlp 9y ago

As I commented in another HN story, I don't believe OEMs and telecom operators will release updates, if Google doesn't force them to do so. They already admitted on the ADB Podcast that they don't want to remove the ability for OEMs and mobile operators to customize their forks of Android. We will still be forced to buy new devices even if they are VTS certified.

BinaryIdiot 9y ago
I completely agree. It's good they broke it apart to make updates, in theory, easier but after working for a company that modified software that was delivered to them and then reshipped elsewhere it really never mattered how module the original was; the updates still go through the same channels, testing, etc and the OEMs will likely want to modify things not as cleanly separated (an API design never passes its production usage without warts). I doubt we'll see much change. I hope it'll make it slightly faster but without an agreement with OEMs that has teeth forcing them to be more expedient I can't see this getting much better.
dcomp 9y ago
> VTS certified If it passed VTS it should be able to run AOSP. The new CTS will be an AOSP System image running their VTS passing "drivers". Even if your vendor doesn't push any updates. At least you should be able to run a number of newer versions of AOSP as long as Android doesn't deprecate those VTS drivers.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Usually common users don't flash their devices and that is what matters for the Android dashboard.
- bitmapbrother 9y ago
  Providing your bootloader can be unlocked, of course.
- nicpottier 9y ago
  You've said this in a few different places, do you have a source for that? You are saying you could load AOSP on an S9 regardless of what Samsung does? If so, this is indeed huge, but I have some serious doubts about it, perhaps because I have felt so very burned by Android so many times in this respect on anything but Nexus devices.

thinbeige 9y ago

Why do you think so? On that page is just this sentence and nothing more. I don't believe in a significant improvment unless Google takes ownership of all OS updates themselves.

klondike_ 9y ago
Treble is the first step to Google updating devices themselves. Now that drivers are more or less independent from the rest of the operating system, Google has the option to push updates to the OS without having to tailor it specifically for every device

madeofpalk 9y ago

I remember many years ago when a few carrier and chipset execs stood up on Google I/O stage and announced a new program to ensure Android devices get updated quicker. Nothing came out of that. The proof here will be when they ship. Thankfully, 'Google Play Services' and distributing more and more services through the Play Store is a step in the right direction.

sangnoir 9y ago
> I remember many years ago when a few carrier and chipset execs stood up on Google I/O stage and announced a new program to ensure Android devices get updated quicker. Nothing came out of that Google remembers that too, and this change allows Google to bypass those same execs when pushing out updates. The HAL layer will not change from version to version, meaning no driver support will be required from the OEM for new Android versions.
- keganunderwood 9y ago
  They were supposed to not put any user app on the system partition but rather install them using play services when the user logs in. I've only seen one device implement it and it was a low end device so it kind of choked anyway.
  - fpgeek 9y ago
    I've seen plenty of devices implement this. Of course, they were all ones I'd flashed with CyanogenMod...
kuschku 9y ago
> Thankfully, 'Google Play Services' and distributing more and more services through the Play Store is a step in the right direction. A move towards replacing an open OS with an entirely proprietary solution full of tracking by a single vendor is "a step in the right direction"? There's thousands of solutions for how you can update core OS components, none of them require what Google's doing to open source.

sjuut 9y ago

It is nice to see the updated Bluetooth 5 stack as a feature of Treble

rogihee 9y ago
That's good, but I really, really want to set the Supervision timeout to something other than a rudiculous 20 seconds: https://blog.classycode.com/a-short-story-about-android-ble-connection-timeouts-and-gatt-internal-errors-fa89e3f6a456 https://blog.classycode.com/a-short-story-about-android-ble-...

dclowd9901 9y ago

Every time I seriously consider the Android platform, I hear about this kind of shortcoming and I'm immediately turned off. I want to buy a phone, not a carrier. This fragmentation per device/carrier is killing this amazing platform. They need to lock it down Apple style (at least for phones).