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California teaches inmates code; some states ban them from teaching themselves
- yohann305 9y agoProgramming
- TallGuyShort 9y agoUniversity students might use it to nefarious ends too. I think the body of research that education is a net good is pretty conclusive at this point.
- yohann305 9y agoi hate HN people downvote you left and right for no reason.. This trend has to stop... You cannot compare students to inmates Inmates are official criminals, not students... The system has already proven inmates have criminal activity. You think you can just teach code and it won't cross their mind to use it to nefarious ends? It's a real risk
- arkades 9y agoI didn't downvote you for "no reason." I downvoted you for a laughably I'll thought out post. Your logic suggests we shouldn't let them get their hands on anything that could be used illegally - so let's keep them away from kitchen knives, automotive repair (makes it easier to steal cars), coaching baseball (all those dangerous blunt instruments), gardening (opportunities to case houses), etc. If precluding all future chance of nefarious activity is the goal, you don't have a system of rehabilitation, you just have an excuse to exile people.
- dv_dt 9y ago> If precluding all future chance of nefarious activity is the goal, you don't have a system of rehabilitation, you just have an excuse to exile people. And I would contend that if there is a lacking system of rehabilitation, you are actually causing an increase in criminal activity as well as incurring excessive expenses required to support a punishment-oriented infrastructure.
- wahern 9y agoPerhaps he thought the issue was permitting inmates to write programs that, while they were institutionalized, would be released to the public. Maybe they would be permitted to electronically converse and cooperate with open source project maintainers. That's what I thought before reading the article, probably because I was primed by the comment about Caspia. I still wouldn't agree that categorically restricting such activity is reasonable, but it's less laughable in that context.
- chc 9y agoNot helping them better themselves is also a real risk. "Criminal activity" is generally not an attribute of a person — it's something they engage in. Giving them a better direction for their life reduces the risk of future criminal activity.
- AlexeyBrin 9y agoPrison should try to rehabilitate the individuals as in teach them payable skills. At least this way they will have a chance to reintegrate in society when they finish their sentence.
- TallGuyShort 9y agoWell there are 2 points I think you need to understand. First, in the US at least (which I know isn't the whole world, but this article is specifically about the states) the connection between being an inmate and being a bad person is weak. Many criminals are really only criminals by a technical definition - they're people who were convicted. But many of them were never actually proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law - almost all of them (I mean more than 95%) took a plea deal because they had a choice between a trial and a long sentence and a plea and a short sentence). And a ridiculously huge number of them are in there for what are arguably victimless crimes (like marijuana - and we can debate that all day, but you can get a license to sell alcohol but you're a criminal for selling a drug with pretty similar impact - hardly the line between good guy / bad guy). We have about the highest incarceration rate in the world. Something is seriously wrong with our definition of criminal and how to actually reduce crime. The second thing is that, as I said, the connection between education and a net good is very well proven. Programs that focus on being productive members of society are demonstrably far more effective than programs that just punish and disincentivize the past. Treating someone as though they can't even be trusted to learn basic coding skills because they'll probably hack into stuff is a dead end. And honestly, it's a pretty stupid one. You asked for research, and that research has been done ad-nauseum. It's just that it hasn't been listened to very well. That's probably the reason you were getting downvotes.
- cjbenedikt 9y agoGiving inmates a towel is a risk too. Yes, they could use it to dry their hands but also to strangle someone. Same logic?
- thephyber 9y ago> it's a risk Just about every decision that people make constitute some kind of risk. Consider the flip side of the coin -- what is the risk of denying prisoners legitimate educational resources? It's probably better to remove the blanket ban and apply it to individual prisoners based on their risk profile.
- buovjaga 9y agoRelated: https://caspiaorg.github.io/website/ https://caspiaorg.github.io/website/ Caspia is an organization dedicated to help prisoners in the state of Washington participate in open source software projects.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jxramos 9y agoI remember I was going to donate some old software text books to a prison volunteer organization. They turned my offer down saying something to the effect that inmate's reading levels would prevent them from comprehending college texts. I remember thinking it would inspire some Malcolm X type person getting all absorbed in reading and expanding the mind. I was pretty shocked at being declined, and made me contemplate being a Pollyanna about this subject.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- strictnein 9y agoIf you still want to donate: Pick up a copy of 2600. There's almost always ads or requests in the back from people in jail asking for tech books.
- stephengillie 9y agoThat all criminals have a low reading level/intelligence is a classist(?) argument which supports systemic prejudice against criminals, increases recidivism, and limits their paths for redemption.
- AlexCoventry 9y agoSome prisoners get pretty good at interacting with the legal system and comprehending and writing legal briefs.
- strictnein 9y agoI can't help by wonder if this date is some latent Y2k bug: https://cdn.muckrock.com/news_photos/2017/08/17/hacking.jpg https://cdn.muckrock.com/news_photos/2017/08/17/hacking.jpg "July 2, 1905"
- orthecreedence 9y agoAssuming that computer science books are banned because they could be used for getting access to unauthorized systems within the prison, they should also ban books on plumbing because a wrench could be used to hit somebody, or books on math as well because what if a prisoner finds a way to create a quantum tunnel outside of the prison just with some simple equations? I'm consistently surprised by how idiotic our prison system in the US is. It seems to have two mantras: "the more the merrier" and "punish, not correct." I guess that's what happens when you have something as dumbfoundingly stupid as private prisons.
- anovikov 9y agoI see good reason in it. Most people get to prison because they are either mentally unstable, or because they are sociopaths. It won't do any good if we give the latter such a powerful tool. These people will get out someday... Crime is counter-intuitive (a lot of crime is done without any visible reason, good or bad), maybe much in the way like startups are counter-intuitive. So many things people experienced in law enforcement do may sound weird or stupid while most of the time, it isn't.
- aianus 9y agoOr maybe they don't have an alternative to earn a decent living and would quit crime if they could find a good job? I don't know that I wouldn't sell drugs if my alternative was flipping burgers at McDonald's for $1000 a month.
- zo1 9y agoLack of opportunities for a nice lifestyle is not a justification for criminal behavior. They're on completely separate axes, and people would do well to disconnect the two. That is one of the big reasons that we're in this mess in the first place. I.e. people being unhappy with their share of the pie and using it as justification to steal/defraud, and finally to hurt when the first two don't fix their situation.
- mullen 9y ago> Lack of opportunities for a nice lifestyle is not a justification for criminal behavior. It's not about lifestyle, it's about eating and putting a roof over ones head. No wants to be a drug dealer, people turn drug dealer because they have no other opportunities.
- zo1 9y agoThe reason I said that is because the person I was responding to mentioned this: >"I don't know that I wouldn't sell drugs if my alternative was flipping burgers at McDonald's for $1000 a month." $1000 per month is at least livable and means that you're not starving or homeless. So making the choice of turning to crime to go above that is a lifestyle one.
- 23443463453 9y agoNice, what we really need is more criminally minded folks with the knowledge to commit digital crimes. Splendid idea.
- shawndrost 9y agoIAMA former teacher at 7370/The Last Mile. AMA Background: I am a cofounder at Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp in SF. I worked with Beverly and Chris Redlitz to start Code.7370. Hack Reactor dedicated instruction, curriculum, and volunteer management to its foundation by building the curriculum, bundling all required materials (no internet in the classroom), and lecturing through the first class. I personally visited San Quentin a couple of dozen times to plan and teach, as did many coworkers at Hack Reactor. I also managed the volunteer-driven project to build the curriculum, powered by Hack Reactor alums and other volunteers. I worked closely with the students in the program (incredibly smart, dedicated, and community-oriented) and I was given a window into the very inspiring program that TLM envisioned, built, and (over the years since) managed and scaled.
- elipsey 9y agoSome of the ideas referenced in this article seem kind of weird to me, like that coding is “the next big blue collar job.” Is this a profession or a trade? Is “Software Engineering” a euphemism that exaggerates our jobs? Did I waste my time getting a CS degree and spending half my life learning to do this? I’m all in favor of anyone who wants to learn programming having a go at it, but I hope it doesn’t make me an elitist if I wonder whether it’s fair to consider software dev or engineering a trade skill that most anyone should be able to learn in several months without a general STEM education...
- celim307 9y agoAll I know is that I've definitely been in some jobs where gluing together api's and cranking out templates felt closer to assembly line work than actual programming.
- TallGuyShort 9y agoI think there's a spectrum. People who optimize file systems, for example: that's on the "engineering" side of the spectrum. It requires a scientific approach to the research. It requires a very deep understanding of complex systems, formal reasoning, and emergent behavior. On the other end of the spectrum, I know people who got a degree completed unrelated to STEM, and through some on-the-job training managed to work their way into reasonably successful careers doing routine web development, or similar things. That certainly looks more like a trade. It's a marketable, valuable skill. They had to put some effort into something like an apprenticeship. But it's not exactly half their life training for a formal engineering discipline either. There are plenty of respectable ways to make a living in the software world that don't require a 4-year degree from en engineering school. I don't think we should pretend otherwise or force people into the way we got our education. I'm more on the engineering side, but I'm very passionate about my work, and not everyone needs to be like that. Some people just want to make a living and focus on other things in life.
- freeflight 9y ago> I think there's a spectrum. People who optimize file systems, for example: that's on the "engineering" side of the spectrum. It requires a scientific approach to the research. It requires a very deep understanding of complex systems, formal reasoning, and emergent behavior. In Germany, there are two different flavors for the apprenticeship to "Fachinformatiker" (Computer Science Expert): One for software development and one for systems integrations, there's even a sub-specialization for "support".
- wan23 9y agoThat list of banned books in Michigan is really interesting. Just from the first few pages - A+ Certification Exam Guide - May facilitate or encourage criminal activity Advanced Dungeons & Dragons - Threat to the order and security of the institution; role play Against the Wind - Threat to the order/security of institution (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/206757.Against_the_Wind https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/206757.Against_the_Wind) Art of Seduction (The) - Threat to order/security institution Bookkeeping for Dummies - This book may facilitate crimial activity because the book includes tax forms which may be used to facilitate the filing of false or fraudulent tax documents.
- b4ux1t3 9y agoI. . .What on earth? Why not ban chemistry textbooks? Learning about rapid oxidation reactions could be a threat to the order and security of the institution.
- tomjakubowski 9y agoMichigan does ban an organic chemistry textbook—Fox & Whitesell—for just that reason.
- b4ux1t3 9y agoI. . .I am really glad I don't live in Michigan, I guess. Are there any other interesting ones? I can't seem to find the list. EDIT: Oh, never mind, I didn't realize they actually linked it in the article. Whoops.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ringaroundthetx 9y ago> I. . .I am really glad I don't live in Michigan, I guess. Why? If you lived there you would have some capability of changing it. You aren't an inmate.
- oxguy3 9y agoHere's the full list of tech/science-related bans I found on the Ohio list: * BEGINNING LINUX PROGRAMMING 4TH EDITION * BLACK + DECKER THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO WIRING * LPIC-1: LINUX PROFESSIONAL INSTITUTE CERTIFICATION STUDY GUIDE, THIRD EDITION * MAKE: 35 THE DANGER ISSUE 38 (okay this ban is pretty justified) * OPERATING SYSTEMS DEMYSTIFIED * POPULAR MECHANICS 09/2014 * POPULAR SCIENCE 10/2015 * PRINTREADING FOR INSTALLING AND TROUBLESHOOTING ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS: SECOND EDITION * WIRED 24.04 * WIRED MAGAZINE 08/2015 And apparently anything that even mentions Nazis is banned, even if it's just historical content: * INTELLIGENCE REPORT WINTER 2015/ISSUE 159 * MAUS: MY FATHER BLEEDS HISTORY * THE GESTAPO: A HISTORY OF HORROR And I wonder what got these magazine issues banned: * THE ATLANTIC 10/2014 * TIME 04/18/2016
- aaron-lebo 9y agoThe nazi ban makes sense because of certain prison gangs.
- oxguy3 9y agoYeah I mean I understand it, but like, those books are far from promoting Nazism in any way :P
- triangleman 9y agoMaus is pretty strongly anti-nazi of course because it's told from the perspective of a Holocaust survivor. It would be like banning Schindler's List from a list of films available to prisons. Maybe it is banned in some places.
- jrs95 9y agoI don't think the availability of any Nazi related books would have any impact on the membership of prison gangs. People don't join them for ideological reasons.
- Dowwie 9y agoHeard a guest on NPR say that treadmills were invented as labor for prisoners that would create no sense of purpose nor pride in accomplishment
- leggomylibro 9y agoHuh. I immediately thought 'bullshit' and googled it, but Wikipedia says that yes, treadmills were invented in the UK in 1818 for prison labor. But depending on how you define a treadmill, I don't think that's true; beasts of burden have been walking in circles to drive mills since people started cultivating wheat.
- Zarathust 9y agoThere's one phrase that makes the whole thing very important : "In April, ABC News reported that none of the prisoners who had gone through the program had returned to prison since being released.". It is, imo, the only thing that really matters in the end
- aaron-lebo 9y agoIt's likely that former criminals get back into crime because they can't make a living, so they go back into something more lucrative and they have experience with. Coding is incredibly lucrative, so problem solved? Wonder how they are getting jobs though. The number of jobs hiring those without university experience (and practical experience) and a criminal record can't be substantial. Probably job placement which is possible because it's a small program they really want to work. The actual website is very media friendly, but numbers are lacking.
- eropple 9y agoI've noticed that software gigs tend to be a lot more reasonable about the felony checkbox. Not in banking/medical/other regulated areas, and usually towards white folks (which addresses some cultural stuff), but in general.
- artorias 9y agoI for one totally love the idea of flooding the market with sub par programmers with felonies in their backgrounds, it'll make for really interesting office politics.
- AlexCoventry 9y agoI volunteered in a NYS prison for a while. They had rooms full of computers which were off-limits to prisoners for unspecified security reasons. Some people were talking about offering a purely paper-based course on programming. At least developing programming skills was not a thought-crime there, though.
- mjmein 9y agoI once delivered a public speaking course to a group of prisoners about to go on parole. It was really eye opening to see how low confidence most of them had, and how bad they were at expressing themselves. In my opinion prisons should be made a lot more like college - make it that prisoners are forced to learn skills instead of being forced to do nothing.
- journalistsscum 9y ago> Computer programming is, according to Wired’s Clive Thompson, “The Big Blue Collar Job.” In countries like Australia and Estonia, coding has become a central part of school curricula. If programming is the wave of the future in employment, prisons in several American states may be cutting incarcerated people off from gaining important skills by preventing them from possessing or receiving books about computer programming. Journalists clearly have a problem with the fact that the asocial nerds and geeks from high school are making much more money than them. That's why we see so many articles referring to us as "coders" (like the people that do medical data entry) instead of "software engineers," and why we see people like Clive Thompson classifying us as blue collar workers--unlike journalists, who presumably are white collar. Considering that to the average reader, rightly or wrongly, one of the central distinctions between blue and white collar workers is intelligence, with blue collar workers stereotyped as being less intelligent, Thompson's classification is a rather obvious slight.
- alphaalpha101 9y ago>journalistsscum Nice neutral name >software engineers Sorry to break it to you, but software development is not engineering.
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- mnm1 9y agoAll states and the federal government are allowed to enslave prisoners. Is anyone surprised they ban books without reason? As long as the 13th Amendment stays unamended, nothing will ever change in this area. When people are thought of as subhuman slaves, there's no limit to the depravity and horrors that will be justified.
- Fjolsvith 9y agoIf you commit the crime, you do the time. Don't want to be 'enslaved', don't commit the crime! And most people in prison committed the crime.